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Old 02-11-2013, 08:00   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jellis11 View Post
If you call 911 because your house is on fire our new computers can tell us the exact location and the location of the closest fire hydrant. Helps us out a lot. Not sure if it came from the same GPS cords that the .gov took... but if they blow up your house with a drone the FD can use the same ones to help put your fire out
Well, that's reassuring.
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:24   #52
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Yes, and they had the benefit of dash cam video I believe.

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Old 02-11-2013, 08:46   #53
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Fine, we can go with "extremely rare" if you want. That should be easier for you to defend.
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Originally Posted by Razorsharp View Post
That's the point I was defending, but you took umbrage at that.
But, you never offered a defense.

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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
At what frequency point do occurrences cross out of "extremely rare"?
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Originally Posted by Razorsharp View Post
Probably at the point when one can google "police, raid, wrong, house" and only one page of results will show, instead of 20 plus pages.
Again, I go back to the repetition of a single event in news reports, blogs, social media makes some believe there are more events than actually occurred.

If your Google search could be limited to unique occurrences, I might agree with your example.

Do you know how many incidents occurred in say 2010? Do you know the number of total warrants served in 2010? Simple "Yes" or "No" questions.

And, again, yes, one mistake is too many.
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I said that JBnTX was being dismissive with his "extremely rare" comment. You made the choice to jump in and challenge my response to JBnTX.
Yes, I did challenge you.
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If the shoe doesn't fit, don't force it on your foot.
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Have you ever talked face to face with someone in law enforcement, in a position of responsibility and authority in the warrant service process, and asked why mistakes happen and what is being done to prevent mistakes?
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No, I haven't. That's a good suggestion. I am sure such inquisitions would be welcomed and responded to with polite sincerity. (In case you didn't catch it, that was genuine sarcasm.)
You are not willing to ask LE in your area what they do to minimize mistakes in warrant services. Why?

Using the Cato map tslex linked to earlier, the Tri-State area has had no incidents since 1985. Why is that? Are there no warrants served in the area? Is the Cato information wrong?

Cops are easy to talk to. All you have to do is set the mood to get the information you want.
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Old 02-11-2013, 08:48   #54
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Yes, that's video of the event. How would you have answered the questions after viewing it?
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:41   #55
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
But, you never offered a defense.
Bull-oney, I provided enough citations to belie the notion that warrant service errors to a wrong address were "extremely rare". Had it been described as "rare", I probably would have let it go at that. But to intentionally catagorize the occurences as extremely rare, is to deliberately mitigate the occurances.

Quote:
Do you know how many incidents occurred in say 2010? Do you know the number of total warrants served in 2010? Simple "Yes" or "No" questions.
You got me... I don't know the total number of warrants served in any year.

Who are you, anyway, Sean Hannity??
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:57   #56
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Yes, that's video of the event. How would you have answered the questions after viewing it?
In response to the question concerning whether or not the suspect attemped to put down the knife, I sure wouldn't have answered with a definative, "no".
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Old 02-11-2013, 10:59   #57
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Do you think it was a "good shoot"? Yes or no?
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:30   #58
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Originally Posted by Razorsharp View Post
Bull-oney, I provided enough citations to belie the notion that warrant service errors to a wrong address were "extremely rare". Had it been described as "rare", I probably would have let it go at that. But to intentionally catagorize the occurences as extremely rare, is to deliberately mitigate the occurances.
I doubt it. You cited what, five events? Lets look at them. My comments are in bold...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorsharp View Post
1. Man Dies in Police Raid on Wrong House
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95475&page=1
Quote:
Lebanon, Tenn. - Reported September, 2012
2. Police raid wrong house, kill family dog and make children sit with its bloody corpse
http://www.naturalnews.com/036698_po...#ixzz2KKbHCyBW
Quote:
St. Paul, Minn. - July, 2010
3. Police Raid Wrong House, Kill 61-Year Old Man
http://www.policemisconduct.net/poli...-year-old-man/
Quote:
This is a duplicate of your first incident.

And in an UPDATE to this link...
Quote:
UPDATE: We saw this item on the ABC News web site the day before this post, but an astute reader informs us that this incident is not recent and actually happened more than ten years ago.
4. SLC Police apologize for no-knock raid on wrong house
http://fox13now.com/2012/10/05/slc-p...n-wrong-house/
Quote:
Salt Lake City, Utah - October, 2012
5. Ogden police sorry for hitting wrong house, but veterans say officer safety comes first
http://www.standard.net/stories/2013...ty-comes-first
Quote:
Ogden, Utah - December, 2012
I could go on, but I believe you get the point. It ain't "extremely rare".
I appreciate your help in illustrating how multiple reports of the same event exaggerates the total occurrences. Thank you so very much.

Different departments, different cities, different times...

Concentrating on multiple occurrences within a single department, or within a single, multi-jurisdiction task force would be evidence of systemic problems. Another study would be very revealing. Look at agencies with multiple occurrences ten years ago. See if there mistake rate has decreased, remained the same, or increased compared to the total number of warrants served.
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Who are you, anyway, Sean Hannity??
No, not Sean, but I do like asking questions that probe what supports a person's opinions. I like having all sides of an issue presented. Guess that might equate to "Fair & Balanced", understanding all sides and presenting all sides...
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:35   #59
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Originally Posted by Razorsharp View Post
In response to the question concerning whether or not the suspect attemped to put down the knife, I sure wouldn't have answered with a definative, "no".
The question was, " How would you have answered the questions after viewing it?"

It was not, "How would you not answer?"
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Old 02-11-2013, 11:38   #60
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Do you think it was a "good shoot"? Yes or no?
Based solely on the news reports, I agree with the department. It was unjustified.
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Old 02-11-2013, 15:00   #61
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
I doubt it. You cited what, five events? Lets look at them. My comments are in bold...I appreciate your help in illustrating how multiple reports of the same event exaggerates the total occurrences. Thank you so very much.

Different departments, different cities, different times...
Feb 24, 2012
http://www.thewesterlysun.com/news/p...9bb2963f4.html

April 7, 2012
http://blog.al.com/live/2012/04/afte...emmes_hou.html

April 16, 2012
http://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-man-c...ry?id=16150874

May 4, 2012
http://www.kctv5.com/story/18148484/...ing-wrong-home

June 12, 2012
http://www.thebiglead.com/index.php/...monte-leonard/

July 16,2012
http://reason.com/blog/2012/07/16/fl...ng-door-at-130

July 27, 2012
http://radicalruss.com/former-miss-n...er-stand-nude/

Aug 10, 2012
http://reason.com/blog/2012/08/10/st...wrong-door-rai

Sep 13, 2012
http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/a...39765/0/NEWS07

Sep 19, 2012
http://www.examiner.com/article/cops...ith-no-arrests

Oct 05, 2012
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...or.html?pg=all

Dec 14, 2012
http://bangordailynews.com/2012/12/1...-head-instead/

Jan 15, 2013
http://www.examiner.com/article/poli...ill-family-dog

You're welcome.

I almost forgot:
Quote:
I could go on, but I believe you get the point. As you can plainly see, they're not extremely rare.
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Old 02-11-2013, 15:09   #62
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The question was, " How would you have answered the questions after viewing it?"

It was not, "How would you not answer?"
Are you really accustomed to people jumping through your irrelevant hoops?
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Old 02-11-2013, 15:38   #63
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You left quite a few questions unanswered...

So 13 out of how many thousands of warrants served in a 12 month period, that's your substantiation?
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Old 02-11-2013, 15:45   #64
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Originally Posted by Razorsharp View Post
Are you really accustomed to people jumping through your irrelevant hoops?
Those who do not answer usually have nothing to substantiate their opinions other than more unsubstantiated opinions.

What is tough about saying how you would have answered your two "WTF" questions. The other two choices are in the questionnaire. Pick one of them.

Unless there is not enough information to choose either of the remaining answers. In that case, just say there is not enough information.

Right now the impression you're giving is that you don't know, but the cop has got to be in the wrong. Is that it?

Help us understand your position.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:33   #65
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Those who do not answer usually have nothing to substantiate their opinions other than more unsubstantiated opinions.

What is tough about saying how you would have answered your two "WTF" questions. The other two choices are in the questionnaire. Pick one of them.

Unless there is not enough information to choose either of the remaining answers. In that case, just say there is not enough information.

Help us understand your position.
Well, I'll tell ya, I'm beginning to doubt your ability to understand. The point I was illustrating in the two "WTF" questions, was that, according to the dashcam video, "unknown" was the only answer to both questions. For one question to elicit "unknown", and the other to be responded to with a definitive "no", creates a puzzling dichotomy. I'm puzzled that you didn't recognize that. But then, you didn't recognize that Bren is not all that bright.
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Right now the impression you're giving is that you don't know, but the cop has got to be in the wrong. Is that it?
No, the cop does not have to be in the wrong, but you take offense to any suggestion that LEOs are ever wrong, or for a mere civilian to make note of a pervasive mindset within the LEO community that may be a contributing factor, as revealed by the "spray and pray" action that resulted in the wounding of two women delivering newspapers in a truck with a few similarities to Dornan's truck. Your indignation is similiar to Muslims who are offended that they are viewed with a degree of suspicion not given to others while boarding passenger aircraft. Perhaps a little introspection is warranted.

Quote:
So 13 out of how many thousands of warrants served in a 12 month period, that's your substantiation?
I am actually surprised that you revert to this. I have already illustrated how using your methodology, one can make the case that automobile fatalities are rare.

What you seem to fail to understand is the public's perception. 13 instances within a 12 mo time frame is not all that much. But, when taking into consideration the price paid by the victims of those mistakes, those few occurences are enough to remove them from the "extremely rare" catagory. In fact, to dismiss them as "extremely rare" is offensive.
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:47   #66
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What you seem to fail to understand is the public's perception. 13 instances within a 12 mo time frame is not all that much. But, when taking into consideration the price paid by the victims of those mistakes, those few occurences are enough to remove them from the "extremely rare" catagory. In fact, to dismiss them as "extremely rare" is offensive.
That effect on victims is why I said and said often in this thread:
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Yes, one mistake is too many, and yes, it has happened "many" times, and for many reasons.
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No one will disagree with you that even one erroneous service resulting in harm to an innocent is one too many. I doubt there is one department, agency, office that doesn't want there to be zero mistakes.
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"Extremely rare" is neither disingenuous or dismissive when you admit that even one event is too many, which I did.
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And, again, yes, one mistake is too many.
And, yes, one family's one event is to them a 100% occurrence rate.

Yours is the emotional argument which is appealing to those more interested in promoting the outcries over the issue than finding out the causes and fixing the causes.

"Hey, it's not my problem to fix," you might say. Okay, I guess that's fair in your world.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:06   #67
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How is standing in a lawful place and collecting lat/long and intrusion?

Also how do you feel about Google with their street view cameras?

Did you know that Google in addition to photgraphing your home has also mapped any WiFi you have?
I can see myself sitting on my porch using google street view, and if I enlarge it I can see one of the kids getting into the pool looking through the front window, through the house, and through the back window into the backyard. I'm not exactly a fan but I'm not real worried either.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:11   #68
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I am actually surprised that you revert to this. I have already illustrated how using your methodology, one can make the case that automobile fatalities are rare.
In 2009 there were (rounded) 10,800,000 traffic accidents. Of those, 30,797 involved fatalities, 0.285%. [The 2012 Statistical Abstract - Transportation: Motor Vehicle Accidents and Fatalities] That is rare according to you.

So, where under that number might the offensive "extremely rare" fall. Just asking for a reference point so I can get back with JBnTX.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:28   #69
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Well, I'll tell ya, I'm beginning to doubt your ability to understand. The point I was illustrating in the two "WTF" questions, was that, according to the dashcam video, "unknown" was the only answer to both questions. For one question to elicit "unknown", and the other to be responded to with a definitive "no", creates a puzzling dichotomy. I'm puzzled that you didn't recognize that. But then, you didn't recognize that Bren is not all that bright.
I know I said they had benefit of the dashcam video. There were also eyewitnesses to the event. Might their testimony have influenced the unanimous "No" answer? Sorry, I thought you knew there were eyewitnesses, too.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:43   #70
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No, the cop does not have to be in the wrong, but you take offense to any suggestion that LEOs are ever wrong,
Offense? No, not 99% of the time. There is that rare, extremely rare occasion when someone is so outrageously outrageous that it is offensive, but, then they offend Eric, too.

If you were to take the time, make the effort, to read my posting history you'll find I have no tolerance for errors made by LE. I have even less tolerance than you do.
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or for a mere civilian to make note of a pervasive mindset within the LEO community that may be a contributing factor, as revealed by the "spray and pray" action that resulted in the wounding of two women delivering newspapers in a truck with a few similarities to Dornan's truck.
"...make note of a pervasive mindset within the LEO community..." Interesting that you say the actions of 6 police officers illustrates a pervasive mindset, a mindset spreading widely throughout the law enforcement community. You use one incident to broadly condemn all of LE. Very telling...
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Your indignation is similiar to Muslims who are offended that they are viewed with a degree of suspicion not given to others while boarding passenger aircraft. Perhaps a little introspection is warranted.
I quote that simply for the record...
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:19   #71
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I know I said they had benefit of the dashcam video. There were also eyewitnesses to the event. Might their testimony have influenced the unanimous "No" answer? Sorry, I thought you knew there were eyewitnesses, too.
Yes, you referenced the dashcam video in your question, so, to now add eyewitness testimony to the equation, is what's known as moving the goalposts. That is a less-than-honest method of debate.

Yes, I did know there was at least one eyewitness, she was momentarily in the video, then you could hear her say to the officer, "Why did you do that, he wasn't doing anything."

Here's another dashcam video.

All I can say is, "Good Lord in Heaven."

But hey, it gave some of the other officers an opportunity to draw their sidearms too.
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