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Old 02-13-2013, 08:15   #151
devildog2067
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMason View Post
In other words, you don't like what the economically defined terms and numbers are telling us and don't want to discuss it.

Why?
Because he understands math.

When you have a sufficiently large group of people, you will have a distribution of things like incomes. By definition, within the US population, there will always be a top 1% and a bottom 1%. This is a mathematical fact. So relative measures of poverty are pretty much meaningless--if you put together a hundred billionaires, the "bottom 1%" guy is going to be the poorest, but that doesn't make him "poor."

For nearly all of human history, "economic success" was defined as having enough to eat. In many places in the world, this is still the working definition. America is a country where we have fat poor people. We talk about "food deserts" which make poor people fat by only giving them access to fatty, processed foods--foods which people in some places would kill for the opportunity to eat. Poor people in this country have cars. They have refrigerators. They have indoor plumbing.

By any objective measure, America is so successful that we've essentially eliminated poverty, and the only way that we can find more is by changing the definition of what it means to be poor. In general (of course there are exceptions) the poorest Americans are wealthier than successful people in much of the world.
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Old 02-13-2013, 08:19   #152
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
You discuss salary and income with friends? Is that a northeastern thing?
With close friends, sure. Why not?
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Old 02-13-2013, 08:34   #153
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Originally Posted by CBennett View Post
agreed, got a bunch at my work like this make $60-75 a year(with OT) and have $250,000 houses, 2 car payments,kids,etc,etc one guy mentioned to pay his bills he needs one overtime a pay period...some of these guys just built these big expensive houses have 30 year Mortages and can only(at our job MANDITORY retirement is 57) work another 15 years max....when you ask them how are you gonna pay off that last 15 years of the mortage when you retire..they say "we will cross that bridge when we come to it"...in other words they have absolutely no idea how they will afford it then..this is the instant gratification generation(thats what ive been calling it for a while now) as long as they have something they want right now even though they cant afford it in the long run..if they have it NOW they are happy.
Just read the OP and a page back, so sure I missed a ton and if this has been put out there then sorry...

What is wrong with someone living large while they can afford it and then selling down when they can't?

Life is short, you only get one shot to enjoy it, so why feel bummed out that you can't have something nice that you can have now?

Maybe to him it's worth putting his resources into that nice house he wants to live in. Busting your hump all week, mandatory OT as you say (I love that part of work) is definitely made easier with a nice place to relax in off the clock.

I manage my resources to have the things I need/want. Some big expensive house or astronomical car payment aren't attractive to me - I don't like to carry debt. For some carrying that debt is worth what they get in return.

Last edited by droidfire; 02-13-2013 at 08:34..
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Old 02-13-2013, 17:03   #154
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Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
Because he understands math.

When you have a sufficiently large group of people, you will have a distribution of things like incomes. By definition, within the US population, there will always be a top 1% and a bottom 1%. This is a mathematical fact. So relative measures of poverty are pretty much meaningless--if you put together a hundred billionaires, the "bottom 1%" guy is going to be the poorest, but that doesn't make him "poor."

For nearly all of human history, "economic success" was defined as having enough to eat. In many places in the world, this is still the working definition. America is a country where we have fat poor people. We talk about "food deserts" which make poor people fat by only giving them access to fatty, processed foods--foods which people in some places would kill for the opportunity to eat. Poor people in this country have cars. They have refrigerators. They have indoor plumbing.

By any objective measure, America is so successful that we've essentially eliminated poverty, and the only way that we can find more is by changing the definition of what it means to be poor. In general (of course there are exceptions) the poorest Americans are wealthier than successful people in much of the world.
Did you get Rabbi's approval to put words into his mouth and did he approve the words?

Last edited by PaulMason; 02-13-2013 at 17:04..
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Old 02-13-2013, 18:03   #155
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Originally Posted by PaulMason View Post
Did you get Rabbi's approval to put words into his mouth
Since I am not putting any words in his mouth, no. Defining (fairly obvious) mathematical terms is in no way putting words in anyone's mouth.

Quote:
and did he approve the words?
Rabbi has used variations on the phrase "we live in a country where our poor people are fat" many times here at GT.

Facts are facts and math is math. You can't argue with either.
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Old 02-13-2013, 18:27   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMason View Post
Did you get Rabbi's approval to put words into his mouth and did he approve the words?
I would submit that if any two people in GNG truly "understand the math" then it is Rabbi and Devildog.

Speaking for myself, I will concur with my fellow GNGers. We don't really have "poor" people in this country. We had to redefine the metrics used to measure poverty in order to reclassify some as such. If we measured poverty as the rest of the world does then we wouldn't have hardly any. One thing of which we have to much is irresponsible people that can't take care of their own finances. That is an entirely different thing than true poverty.
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Old 02-13-2013, 18:32   #157
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All I know is my pay check hasn't seen a raise in close to 6 years. My taxes are higher now, cost of gas is higher, cost of food... higher and I really don't live a life of luxury when compared to others in the same pay range as myself.

Funny thing is I was making more when I was active duty than I am now, and that is NOT including medical, dental, vision... I have to pay for those now. I got out I took close to a $20,000.00 hit to my pay. So I adjusted my lifestyle accordingly. Thing is I am now about $15,000.00 below what I made in the Navy and yep still paying for my medical, dental and vision.

Now... what I make is considered solid middle class in some parts of the country. In others I am upper lower class and in a very few... upper middle class. But based on where I am now... I have had to give up a lot of luxuries just to maintain a bare minimum existence. The house we are building... yeah, it's not going to get finished any time soon.

Due to taxes, cost of living and cost of building with our combined income (which is pretty decent really) we still can't muster up the $$$ to finish the house. So we will have to continue to live in a 2 story 12'x12' cabin with a 1/2 finished house while we address her debt.

If the cost of living hadn't increased and I actually had gotten a pay raise it wouldn't be an issue... but both those factors out of my control it is. And finding another job... looking, but it's bleak and the competition where I am is stiff.

NOW there is one possible miracle job that may have fallen into my lap, I need to make some calls... so things may be changing for me. But then there is the specter of taxes that will undermine the profit gain I would potentially see. It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Me personally, I am pissed because I played by the rules and still got boned.
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Old 02-13-2013, 18:45   #158
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[/QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
Since I am not putting any words in his mouth, no. Defining (fairly obvious) mathematical terms is in no way putting words in anyone's mouth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
Because he understands math.
I applied the word 'like' to Rabbi and he said I was putting words in his mouth.

You are claiming he understands math. Only he can make that claim.


Quote:
Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
Rabbi has used variations on the phrase "we live in a country where our poor people are fat" many times here at GT.

Facts are facts and math is math. You can't argue with either.
The question was:

Quote:
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Did you get Rabbi's approval to put words into his mouth and did he approve the words?
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Old 02-13-2013, 18:50   #159
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I, for one, am shocked that Paul fails to understand basic economics, math, and the observable world around him.

The only question really is this: Is the average standard of living better now than it was in the '60s?
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Old 02-13-2013, 20:01   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glotin View Post
I, for one, am shocked that Paul fails to understand basic economics, math, and the observable world around him.

The only question really is this: Is the average standard of living better now than it was in the '60s?
I think that would depend upon the metrics


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Old 02-13-2013, 20:03   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock20 10mm View Post
All I know is my pay check hasn't seen a raise in close to 6 years. My taxes are higher now, cost of gas is higher, cost of food... higher and I really don't live a life of luxury when compared to others in the same pay range as myself.

Funny thing is I was making more when I was active duty than I am now, and that is NOT including medical, dental, vision... I have to pay for those now. I got out I took close to a $20,000.00 hit to my pay. So I adjusted my lifestyle accordingly. Thing is I am now about $15,000.00 below what I made in the Navy and yep still paying for my medical, dental and vision.

Now... what I make is considered solid middle class in some parts of the country. In others I am upper lower class and in a very few... upper middle class. But based on where I am now... I have had to give up a lot of luxuries just to maintain a bare minimum existence. The house we are building... yeah, it's not going to get finished any time soon.

Due to taxes, cost of living and cost of building with our combined income (which is pretty decent really) we still can't muster up the $$$ to finish the house. So we will have to continue to live in a 2 story 12'x12' cabin with a 1/2 finished house while we address her debt.

If the cost of living hadn't increased and I actually had gotten a pay raise it wouldn't be an issue... but both those factors out of my control it is. And finding another job... looking, but it's bleak and the competition where I am is stiff.

NOW there is one possible miracle job that may have fallen into my lap, I need to make some calls... so things may be changing for me. But then there is the specter of taxes that will undermine the profit gain I would potentially see. It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Me personally, I am pissed because I played by the rules and still got boned.
Have you considered moving or changing employment?


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