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Old 02-07-2013, 22:53   #326
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
I agree with everything you say about Gunhaver, make no mistake. However, Paul has a point in that an expansive foreign policy led to a decade of war and ultimately to Kyle's murder.

Oil keeps us meddling in the affairs of the middle east. That creates enemies. An enemy attacked us and it led to a decade of war. Kyle was a hero protecting his fellow soldiers. The war apparently destroyed the mental health of Kyle's murderer.

I think some here are eager to misread Paul's comments out of prejudice toward him and his views on liberty and foreign policy. There has long been a willingness here on GT to knowingly misrepresent them.

Paul's initial comments were poorly chosen. I suspect if he were to speak at length on the subject his intent would be apparent. His followup comments were pretty accurate. Under Ron Paul foreign policy, Chris Kyle would be alive today but you probably wouldn't know his name.
I think Paul was very off in the last week or so. I also think we could have saved TONS of money if we were energy independent. The Japanese model showed us how to change a bloodthirsty warrior society with a deity as a leader into a bunch of polite businessmen. Cheap and effective aren't necessarily opposing forces. Too cheap on foreign policy might end up costing more in the future.

It's all a gamble. I think it's sad, but I don't believe a Ron Paul foreign policy is realistically possible of success. You can have twice the submarines we have now, and we would still be vulnerable to the ill will of others, simply by existing.

Trust me in this one thing, because I promise you it is true to a level that most will never realize. No one hopes for peace more than a warrior.
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Old 02-07-2013, 22:53   #327
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Originally Posted by Syclone538 View Post
Don't forget, war wasn't needed to end slavery in most countries.

And what about WW1 and the Treaty of Versailles, maybe that had something to do with the rise of the nazis.
Has any other place fought a war to end slavery?


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Old 02-07-2013, 22:59   #328
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Originally Posted by RC-RAMIE View Post
Has any other place fought a war to end slavery?
I honestly don't know. If so, it was rare.
do boi cao cap quan ao nam chan goi so sinh cho be vay cong so nu vay cong so nu chup anh da ngoai dep nhat
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...
The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
...

Last edited by Syclone538; 05-15-2013 at 05:47..
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Old 02-07-2013, 23:04   #329
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Lol. Ended fascism? Ended slavery? Communism? None of those things are ended. There are fascists all over the world, hell 99% of the US government is a nice blend of fascists and communists. You're a fascist, with your nuclear fantasies, nuke the water plants, melt the womens' eyes out, all that insanity you love to talk about. And anyway, neither I nor RP are pacifists. Let's use some nukes before their expiration date, LOL. You guys are ******* nuts.
You need to get around more. In certain places, they have ended.

I'm not really proposing using nukes. But that is war on the cheap. No war would be preferential, but in human history, conflict will happen. It is inevitable. Some cultures are jealous, some cultures are charged by their own predicted destiny to rule the world. You can't be nice enough to avoid conflict with that without surrendering every liberty the constitution protects.

Like it or not, peace is a laudable goal that we should constantly reach for, work toward, and strive to protect, and one that we will never achieve. Human nature will not allow it to exist except for short periods of time. When bitten by an animal, petting it back does not always allow you to keep your hands, let alone survive. Even petting it first doesn't always preclude the initial bite.
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Old 02-07-2013, 23:08   #330
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Has any other place fought a war to end slavery?


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Ever hear of Spartacus?

Not all were successful. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_rebellion
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Old 02-07-2013, 23:11   #331
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Originally Posted by Syclone538 View Post
Don't forget, war wasn't needed to end slavery in most countries.

And what about WW1 and the Treaty of Versailles, maybe that had something to do with the rise of the nazis.
If you use the model of WWI and WWII, beating your enemy back to the point of a cease fire vs. unconditional seems to be the difference.
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Old 02-07-2013, 23:17   #332
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
If you use the model of WWI and WWII, beating your enemy back to the point of a cease fire vs. unconditional seems to be the difference.
Though I know more about the wars then the average person, I must admit there is more I could learn about them.
do boi dep quan ao thoi trang dep chan goi so sinh vay cong so vay cong so chup anh da ngoai
Weren't they both effectively unconditional?
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...
The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
...

Last edited by Syclone538; 05-15-2013 at 05:46..
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Old 02-07-2013, 23:33   #333
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Originally Posted by Syclone538 View Post
Though I know more about the wars then the average person, I must admit there is more I could learn about them.

Weren't they both effectively unconditional?
The Armistice signed on 11 Nov 1918 ended the fighting, the Treaty of Versailles was signed about 6 months later after many negotiations. It was violated many times. The league of nations wasn't all that effective in stopping that, much like the UN today. Occupation was limited to 15 years.
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Old 02-08-2013, 00:18   #334
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Occupation for 15 years and reparations that could almost never be repaid, sounds effectively unconditional to me. shop thoi trang quan ao thoi trang han quoc quan ao so sinh cho be vest cong so vest cong so chup anh cuoi o ha noi
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...
The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
...

Last edited by Syclone538; 05-15-2013 at 05:46..
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:36   #335
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You're a neocon-type. You don't like Paul's pro-liberty views. I get it.
That's the problem, you don't get it. There's more to being pro-liberty than simply being pro-dope. Throw away that crutch and you'll be surprized what all it entails.

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Fundamentally all Paul wants to do is leave these "arabs" alone.
Who are you trying to kid...? Fundamentally, all RP wanted from the Arabs was campaign contributions, and his Arab supporters wanted a "Blame America First" candidate. In the context of "politics makes strange bedfellows", it was match made in heaven.
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:59   #336
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Originally Posted by Syclone538 View Post
Occupation for 15 years and reparations that could almost never be repaid, sounds effectively unconditional to me.
At the time, many thought it to harsh and many thought it too weak at the same time. In retrospect, it didn't work out so well.
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:05   #337
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That's the problem, you don't get it. There's more to being pro-liberty than simply being pro-dope. Throw away that crutch and you'll be surprized what all it entails.



Who are you trying to kid...? Fundamentally, all RP wanted from the Arabs was campaign contributions, and his Arab supporters wanted a "Blame America First" candidate. In the context of "politics makes strange bedfellows", it was match made in heaven.
I've come to respect CF, he's not one of the pothead college kids for Ron. He was strictly on the liberty side of things, and not an extremist on the foreign policy thing. Not my place to say this, but since I've already but my nose in, you all should listen to one another, you agree more than you think you do.

I'm about as pro military as they come, but the DoD could use an overhaul, it could be smaller, leaner and more lethal at the same time. We are broke. We can't do nation building anymore. We can have carrier groups out there, air superiority fighters, and very well trained and equipped ground forces. The next fight we get into though, we should just destroy them in place and leave them, let the neighbors pick the carcass clean.
It's not as nice, but it is cheaper.
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:35   #338
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Clear on that, Doc. Thanks.
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:16   #339
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
The U.S. today is basically a Fascist nation. It really isn't even debatable anymore. A few more clicks and we're there. Will war end us?
The pieces are being assembled, no doubt. And at such a pace, and with such small steps, so as not to startle the majority. I don't know if we're almost there or not, but I personally believe we passed the midway marker.
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:17   #340
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Seeing a lot of this here.

Political Issues


That's funny right there!
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Old 02-08-2013, 21:11   #341
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Exactly. I find the fact that RP supporters come here to defend him disrespectful as well.
You should take that complaint up with the person who began this thread by inviting them.
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Old 02-08-2013, 21:17   #342
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You should take that complaint up with the person who began this thread by inviting them.
Sure, it's always somebody else's fault.

Are you part of the Obama Administration by chance?


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Old 02-08-2013, 22:12   #343
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Clear on that, Doc. Thanks.
I'm a state's rights guy. I think our global presence needs to shrink. I think anytime you have a pot of money as big as DOD you invite rampant corruption. I think when the nation decides to fight a war it needs to allow the military to fight it as they deem most effective. I believe our federal government is a corrupt cesspool from top to bottom with very rare exceptions.

To the weed: The fedgov has no legitimate authority here. Its a state issue. I think states would be wise to decriminalize but it should be left to them individually. I think government drug prohibition creates far more societal ills than legal drugs would. I don't use marijuana but if it were legal I probably would in small amounts, occasionally, the same way I use alcohol, but I don't want it legal so that I can do so.

On Paul - I don't think he would have been a good President. We need someone with his views on most things but with better leadership ability. I think Romney would have been a Progressive disaster but not as bad as Obama. I think the Republican party is corrupt and so long as Republicans line up to vote for whoever the party leadership offers, things will continue to get worse. I think Reagan was wrong on fixing the party vs abandoning it. Likewise I think any 3rd party that might come into power will eventually be just as corrupt and need to be abandoned. I'm under no illusions that any viable 3rd party will materialize because politics is a game of money and the funnels are entrenched to the two parties. They're already paid for.

I agree with barbedwiresmile that our government is best described as a kleptocracy.

I think the single most effective thing we can do to save the Republic, if that is even possible, would be to repeal the 17th Amendment and return the states to their rightful place in government.

I've seen rational, intelligent posts from you so I recognize the antagonistic one's as exactly that and play along. Doc and I disagree on a lot. We also agree on a lot. Despite our disagreements I have immense respect for Doc -- I have my reasons.

Last edited by certifiedfunds; 02-08-2013 at 22:16..
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Old 02-09-2013, 06:38   #344
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CF - I agree with you a LOT more than I don't.
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Old 02-09-2013, 07:16   #345
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
I'm a state's rights guy. I think our global presence needs to shrink. I think anytime you have a pot of money as big as DOD you invite rampant corruption. I think when the nation decides to fight a war it needs to allow the military to fight it as they deem most effective. I believe our federal government is a corrupt cesspool from top to bottom with very rare exceptions.

To the weed: The fedgov has no legitimate authority here. Its a state issue. I think states would be wise to decriminalize but it should be left to them individually. I think government drug prohibition creates far more societal ills than legal drugs would. I don't use marijuana but if it were legal I probably would in small amounts, occasionally, the same way I use alcohol, but I don't want it legal so that I can do so.

On Paul - I don't think he would have been a good President. We need someone with his views on most things but with better leadership ability. I think Romney would have been a Progressive disaster but not as bad as Obama. I think the Republican party is corrupt and so long as Republicans line up to vote for whoever the party leadership offers, things will continue to get worse. I think Reagan was wrong on fixing the party vs abandoning it. Likewise I think any 3rd party that might come into power will eventually be just as corrupt and need to be abandoned. I'm under no illusions that any viable 3rd party will materialize because politics is a game of money and the funnels are entrenched to the two parties. They're already paid for.

I agree with barbedwiresmile that our government is best described as a kleptocracy.

I think the single most effective thing we can do to save the Republic, if that is even possible, would be to repeal the 17th Amendment and return the states to their rightful place in government.

I've seen rational, intelligent posts from you so I recognize the antagonistic one's as exactly that and play along. Doc and I disagree on a lot. We also agree on a lot. Despite our disagreements I have immense respect for Doc -- I have my reasons.
Good post. I agree with most, but not all of it.

With RP, it would depend on what makes a "good" president to you. I agree he would have a very hard time getting people to support what he would do, but I figure he'd veto the vast majority of bills to hit the desk, and think that would almost in itself make him a good president.

I think Reagan gets a lot more credit then he deserves.
shop do lot shop thoi trang shop do so sinh cho be thoi trang cong so nu thoi trang cong so nu chup anh cho be dep re
Repealing the 17th could be a huge step in the right direction, and not just because of legislation. It might really help us with the Supreme Court.

If it were up to me, we'd also amend out interstate commerce, necessary and proper, and general welfare.
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Quote:
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...
The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
...

Last edited by Syclone538; 05-15-2013 at 05:46..
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Old 02-09-2013, 08:02   #346
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Originally Posted by Snowman92D View Post
That's the problem, you don't get it. There's more to being pro-liberty than simply being pro-dope. Throw away that crutch and you'll be surprized what all it entails.


It's not about being pro dope, I would say that the majority of us are not pro dope, rather, we are pro constitution and pro 10th amendment.
Here's Paul's stance on drugs.

Quote:
Q: What could we be doing to help stop these drug cartels?PAUL: I think that's another war we ought to cancel, because it's to nobody's benefit. And that's where the violence is coming from.
Q: Does that mean legalize all these drugs?
PAUL: I think the federal war on drugs is a total failure. You can at least let sick people have marijuana because it's helpful, but compassionate conservatives say, well, we can't do this--the federal government's going in there and overriding state laws and putting people like that in prison. Why don't we handle the drugs like we handle alcohol? Alcohol is a deadly drug. The real deadly drugs are the prescription drugs. They kill a lot more people than the illegal drugs. The drug war is out of control. I fear the drug war because it undermines our civil liberties. It magnifies our problems on the borders. We spent, over the last 40 years, $1 trillion on this war. And believe me, the kids can still get the drugs. It just hasn't worked.
Paul is right, the war on drugs hasn't worked. It is an utter failure. Every year we spend more money, devote more of our officers time to fighting this so called war and we imprison more and more people.
It's really simple. Prohibition doesn't work and we have history on our side that proves this. What happened when we banned alcohol? A black market was created. Although times have changed, the motives that drive men have not and when a black market is created there will be men, hungry for profit, willing to fill this void. Al Capone and Bugs Moran filled the void brought on by prohibition. Today, the cartels are filling the void from the prohibition of drugs.
There are other was, better ways to deal with our drug problem that do not breed the violence of prohibition, ways that actually decrease the use of drugs. That's what we are about.
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Old 02-09-2013, 09:54   #347
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Has any other place fought a war to end slavery?


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Yes.
In December / January of 1989 in Romania.
I was a slave to the communist regime for my entire life, 26 years. On December 16, people in a western town of Romania called Timisoara peacefully assembled to show their support for a Catholic priest who arrested by the regime. The police opened fire on the unarmed protesters. Instead of running, more people showed up, then next day the communists brought the army with tanks and machine guns. They killed more people and they went to hospitals and executed the wounded in their beds. Then some army units refused to obey orders, soldiers refused to kill their mothers, fathers and brothers. They switched sides and opened armories and armed civilians. The war extended in every major city and the dictator fled. I went to my former Navy unit to ask for a rifle and was issued an AKM-47 and two full magazines solely on word that I will come and bring the gun back if I don't get killed. My task was to guard a harbor access gate. In the capital 2000+ people were killed in just three days. In my hometown only about 25. The fight continued for weeks after the communist regime collapsed. We were fighting regime loyalists aided by Palestinian terrorists sent by the dictator's best friend Yasser Arafat. I've seen two of them, taken prisoner by troops of an infantry unit. They were speaking Arabic and some broken English I believe the last shots were fired during the last days of January 1990. More than 2,500 people were killed, many more disappeared forever probably buried in common graves during the days before the communist regime collapsed.
This was the war I fought to end slavery in my old country. If anyone of you believe communism is not slavery, you should try to live a year in Cuba or North Korea.

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Old 02-09-2013, 12:29   #348
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It's amazing that so many don't know how well we have it here. There are enough that we may have just ruined it for future generations. I've been to some places in the world that I am very glad I do not have to raise a family in. Life is real cheap in some of them.

Totalitarian Communism is slavery. Glad you made it out ZS.
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