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Old 02-05-2013, 08:57   #51
NickC50310
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Originally Posted by Z71bill View Post
Not so sure --

I am not a lawyer -- but have been involved with the legal system (mostly civil) many times.

You can actually get yourself in MORE trouble sometimes when you have good records - and are in many cases better off NOT having any records.

Thats fine but just because we say you must check id when selling a gun doesnt mean the basic fundamentals of our justice system will change from "innocent until proven guilty". Theres no reason to believe a change to require we check id would change the very basic fundamentals of our justice system. Orgs from the aclu to the nra would be lined up a mile long to sue the pants off the gov.

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Old 02-05-2013, 08:58   #52
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That last post was meant to quote gwach not bill.

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Old 02-05-2013, 09:13   #53
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Here's the BIG JOKE. My Daughter did this to become a Teacher and put the wrong Social Security number down and she passed with flying colors. She reversed two numbers by accident. What do they really check?....but take your money! They can't even match simple data.
Name and address search. If she lived at the same address for 5 years that's all that's needed. They only care about SSN if there is more than one person with her name and they cannot positively identify her by her address.

This is the same thing they do to you if you get a mortgage. Bet no one knew that.
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Old 02-05-2013, 09:18   #54
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The problem is that the law gives LE just another excuse to harm innocent people under color of law. I have been a victim of this. It isn't fun. Cops are going to enthusiastically abuse their power because they know what they can get away with, and they LOVE to harm gun owners, especially the law abiding kind.
I've been a cop, in a police family, working for law enforcement agencies, etc., since I was born - what you said is complete BS and I notice you don't support it with any details.
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Old 02-05-2013, 09:20   #55
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I agree... we'll eventually reach a point where guns manufactured after XX date, will have a paper trail somewhere.
All guns sold at retail since 1968 already have a paper trail, that's how ATF does gun traces every single day.
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Old 02-05-2013, 09:57   #56
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I've been a cop, in a police family, working for law enforcement agencies, etc., since I was born - what you said is complete BS and I notice you don't support it with any details.
Dont bs me! I know all you jbts are just itching to break down my door, kick the hell out of my dog, follow my wife, and steal my guns! Lmao!

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Old 02-05-2013, 10:02   #57
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I think Z71bill has come up with the best idea yet. We need to have a 4473 once every 1-2 years for everyone that wants to buy a gun and call it a UBC. Only one 4473 for a year or two worth of buying guns. So get a check, buy 100 guns over a year, then get another.
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:17   #58
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Originally Posted by spcwes View Post
I think Z71bill has come up with the best idea yet. We need to have a 4473 once every 1-2 years for everyone that wants to buy a gun and call it a UBC. Only one 4473 for a year or two worth of buying guns. So get a check, buy 100 guns over a year, then get another.
Let me make sure I understand. You'd do this to ensure that buyers at private sales undergo BCs. Is the ability to trace the gun not important (it's not to me)?

Also, when the gun is traced to me and I sold it to a guy who showed he'd had a check, will the BATFE accept my word on that or do I need to keep a record?
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:18   #59
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Originally Posted by NickC50310 View Post
...
Heres how it works: ffl sells firearm to person a. Person a sells firearm two years later to person b. Person a is required to check state id and check for permit to carry or permit to purchase. Bada bing all new laws were followed.

If person a sells the gun without checking and then the gun is used in a crime gov uses current 4473 tracking methods to find out if person a followed the law. If the gov can prove they did not then person a is punished accordingly. If they cant prove it its just like any other crime.

Now with that said this method makes it a difficult law to enforce and that is how it should be. No further changes are acceptable to me.

In all honesty we should all be checking id and permits anyway. As gun owners we have a vested interest in keeping guns out of the wrong hands
That is NOT how the "proposed universal background check" law will work. All private sales will have to go through an FFL. Individuals will not be allowed to conduct background checks.

Since this type of nonsense is totally unenforceable, they will instantly declare another "loophole" and demand universal firearm registration. Without registration, you cannot prove there was a background check done.
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:57   #60
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That is NOT how the "proposed universal background check" law will work. All private sales will have to go through an FFL. Individuals will not be allowed to conduct background checks.

Since this type of nonsense is totally unenforceable, they will instantly declare another "loophole" and demand universal firearm registration. Without registration, you cannot prove there was a background check done.
Agreed. That is why we can not accept anything except what i have laid out.

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Old 02-05-2013, 10:59   #61
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Originally Posted by NickC50310 View Post
Agreed. That is why we can not accept anything except what i have laid out.
Nick, I can assure you that "they" will accept nothing less than full registration.
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Old 02-05-2013, 11:17   #62
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Originally Posted by gwalchmai View Post
Nick, I can assure you that "they" will accept nothing less than full registration.
I can assure you that youre right! Lol! I can also assure you that they will call on us to compromise while they refuse to do anything of the sort.

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Old 02-05-2013, 12:42   #63
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That is NOT how the "proposed universal background check" law will work. All private sales will have to go through an FFL. Individuals will not be allowed to conduct background checks.

Since this type of nonsense is totally unenforceable, they will instantly declare another "loophole" and demand universal firearm registration. Without registration, you cannot prove there was a background check done.
I may have a blind spot.

Plus I don't care about enforcement.

The goal is keep guns out of the hands of criminals, mentally ill and other illegal owners.

I am going very general -- using terms like legal & illegal. Just to keep it simple.

#1. Legal buyer & legal seller - no problem no matter what system you have. Right?

#2. Illegal buyer & illegal seller - no way any system will prevent the sale. Right? Criminals will always be willing to sell guns to other criminals and you can require all the rules you want - it will not do much to stop it.

#3. Legal buyer & illegal seller - no real problem with this - the end result is the gun is in the hands of a person that could have bought a gun anyway. Maybe a stretch - some may get all excited that the whole sale is illegal - but if the goal is to keep guns out of the hands of illegal gun owners - having a legal gun owner buy it should not be a big deal.

#4. Illegal buyer & legal seller - this is where the law should focus - because this is the point that it matters - the point where a positive impact can be made.

So I legally own a gun and want to sell it - since I am a law abiding type - I want to follow the law.

I find a buyer and

If you require the sale go through a FFL that does a background check - it would have a positive impact on keeping guns out of the hands of "illegal" buyers.

No registration required to get a positive result and reduce number of illegal people that buy guns.

Please point out my blind spot?


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Old 02-05-2013, 12:58   #64
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Originally Posted by gwalchmai View Post
Let me make sure I understand. You'd do this to ensure that buyers at private sales undergo BCs. Is the ability to trace the gun not important (it's not to me)?

Also, when the gun is traced to me and I sold it to a guy who showed he'd had a check, will the BATFE accept my word on that or do I need to keep a record?
If I understood it correctly it would be no different than the current 4473 but you would only do it for the background check purpose and it would not have anything to do with the weapon. You would do this once per year or every other year or something like that and probably have to have a card like they issue in IL and during that time you could buy what ever you want no matter as long as its legal.

Gun shops would still have their ATF logs they would have to keep up with but this would make it so anyone who buys the weapons at gun shows will at some point during the time period listed had a background check.

No tracking, no registering of any kind and it would blanket all sales. So you go in with the card, no filling out a 4473 and you buy a gun with the card and ID. Cards are issued based one successful 4473 per reporting period or something of that nature.
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Old 02-05-2013, 13:02   #65
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The antis would never accept such a plan. Sorry.

I would accept it as opposed to having all private sales go through an FFL, FWIW.

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Old 02-05-2013, 13:05   #66
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The antis would never accept such a plan. Sorry.
I am sure you are correct on this but to be honest if you named this process "Universal Background Check" they would because they honestly are ignorant on the facts in the first place and would not be able see a difference.

The current list of anti's have no idea what they are talking about and since "universal background check" does not exist at the moment and there is massive blind support for it the sky is the limit.
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Old 02-05-2013, 13:34   #67
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Originally Posted by spcwes View Post
If I understood it correctly it would be no different than the current 4473 but you would only do it for the background check purpose and it would not have anything to do with the weapon. You would do this once per year or every other year or something like that and probably have to have a card like they issue in IL and during that time you could buy what ever you want no matter as long as its legal.

Gun shops would still have their ATF logs they would have to keep up with but this would make it so anyone who buys the weapons at gun shows will at some point during the time period listed had a background check.

No tracking, no registering of any kind and it would blanket all sales. So you go in with the card, no filling out a 4473 and you buy a gun with the card and ID. Cards are issued based one successful 4473 per reporting period or something of that nature.
Agreed. For states such as iowa with a permit to purchase or cwp system then there is no need for the new system.





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Originally Posted by gwalchmai View Post
The antis would never accept such a plan. Sorry.

I would accept it as opposed to having all private sales go through an FFL, FWIW.
Youre right and i agree. Requiring us to go through an ffl is mularkey imho.






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Originally Posted by spcwes View Post
I am sure you are correct on this but to be honest if you named this process "Universal Background Check" they would because they honestly are ignorant on the facts in the first place and would not be able see a difference.

The current list of anti's have no idea what they are talking about and since "universal background check" does not exist at the moment and there is massive blind support for it the sky is the limit.
Also right. I hope one of our Republican lawmakers can introduce such a bill and get it passed as our "compromise" so that we can avoid any pos bill the liberals might want.

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Old 02-05-2013, 13:44   #68
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Can someone please explain why the existing laws are not being enforced?

Lets start with Title 18 U.S.C. 922[g][1-9]

This deals with Unlawful Acts (Link) regarding the transfer of firearms.

Quote:
The penalty for violating this law is ten years imprisonment and/or a $250,000 fine. Further, 18 U.S.C. 3565(b)(2) (probation) and 3583(g)(2) (supervised release) makes it mandatory for the Court to revoke supervision for possession of a firearm. (link)
Felon attempts to buy a gun and fills out the 4473. NICS background check shows he is a felon. Purchase is denied but the federal government now KNOWS a crime has been committed.

Nothing is done. No law enforcement agency is contacted to apprehend the criminal that just committed a crime.

That is exactly why criminals laugh at any new gun laws. They are fully aware that their lifestyle and means of income won't be affected.

HH
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Old 02-05-2013, 19:56   #69
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LG, I don't mean to pick on you. I've read your posts and I think you're a good guy. However, I'd like to explore this post just a little. Bear with me if you will and understand that I don't mean any of this as a personal attack.

What do you think is the meaning and intent of the Second Amendment?
Sorry, didn't mean to ignore you. Been semi-offline for last couple days. Buying a new house, plus have a new girlfriend (both bigtime good )

Meaning and intent of the 2nd Amendment is enough to write a book about. I think it had to do with having armed citizens capable of forming militias for purposes of defending our country. Perhaps against foreign invaders, perhaps against tyrants. I've read Supreme Court decisions, and they are complex. Sometimes, they're seventy pages long. (I think Stevens had a long one).

But our right to bear arms shall not be infringed is pretty clear.

Happy to talk more if you want to ask specifics.
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Old 02-06-2013, 04:31   #70
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Sorry, didn't mean to ignore you. Been semi-offline for last couple days. Buying a new house, plus have a new girlfriend (both bigtime good )

Meaning and intent of the 2nd Amendment is enough to write a book about. I think it had to do with having armed citizens capable of forming militias for purposes of defending our country. Perhaps against foreign invaders, perhaps against tyrants. I've read Supreme Court decisions, and they are complex. Sometimes, they're seventy pages long. (I think Stevens had a long one).

But our right to bear arms shall not be infringed is pretty clear.
No worries.

I agree with your definition, esp. the part about giving the people the means to revolt against a tyrannical government. I believe that part is compromised if you give the government a list of guns and their owners. Others also feel this way which is why the .gov ostensibly cannot have a gun registration database. It is also the reason I don't want the feds to know about every one of my guns, even though I have nothing to hide.
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Old 02-06-2013, 05:29   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
All guns sold at retail since 1968 already have a paper trail, that's how ATF does gun traces every single day.
Of course, but I was referring to being able to track private sales as well.
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Old 02-06-2013, 05:39   #72
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Originally Posted by HoldHard View Post
Can someone please explain why the existing laws are not being enforced?

Lets start with Title 18 U.S.C. 922[g][1-9]

This deals with Unlawful Acts (Link) regarding the transfer of firearms.


Felon attempts to buy a gun and fills out the 4473. NICS background check shows he is a felon. Purchase is denied but the federal government now KNOWS a crime has been committed.

Nothing is done. No law enforcement agency is contacted to apprehend the criminal that just committed a crime.

That is exactly why criminals laugh at any new gun laws. They are fully aware that their lifestyle and means of income won't be affected.

HH
I don't know about where you live, but here I've seen the ATF show up with a warrant the next day, after a parolee's WIFE bought a gun. He went to jail, trial, not guilty, parole revoked by the state anyhow.

Yes, I'd say they mostly don't pursue every one, but a lot of that is (a) most (yes, a majority) NICS denials are incorrect denials of people who aren't prohibited (don't recall the statistic, but I have researched it before) and (b) those that are legally prohibited, but still went through a NICS check, are people who may not have known they were prohibited for some reason (like a pre-Lautenberg misdemeanor, applied retroactively) and aren't good choices to spend money prosecuting.
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Old 02-06-2013, 06:11   #73
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What difference does that make? The government is required to prove you DID buy it illegally. It isn't your burden to prove you did not.

If the gun was made before the universal background check law, it means absolutely nothing that you don't have proof of when you bought it, unless you admit you bought it after or the government has an informant who says you did.
How do you enforce these rules on the government?
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Old 02-06-2013, 06:13   #74
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How do you enforce these rules on the government?
It's called "the legal system" - the burden of proof is about the most fundamental thing there is. It's isn't a "rule" for the government, it's a fundamental principal of the entire American system of law.
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Old 02-06-2013, 06:14   #75
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Of course, but I was referring to being able to track private sales as well.
They do that by contacting owners - it only ends when somebody says "sold it to a guy, didn't get his name."
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