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Old 02-04-2013, 07:00   #1
gwalchmai
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Universal background check question

Let's say this ill-conceived affront to liberty passes. Let's say that you then don't ever buy or sell another gun. Then let's say that you get pulled over by a zealous representative of the state and you have your revolver on your seat, in compliance with your local ordinance. Let's further say you bought this gun in a perfectly legal face-to-face sale from a stranger in 2012, and have no paperwork to show that.

Who's to say that you didn't purchase that revo from "someone" this morning and didn't run a background check on it?
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:07   #2
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That's the obvious problem right there.

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Old 02-04-2013, 07:10   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwalchmai View Post
Let's say this ill-conceived affront to liberty passes. Let's say that you then don't ever buy or sell another gun. Then let's say that you get pulled over by a zealous representative of the state and you have your revolver on your seat, in compliance with your local ordinance. Let's further say you bought this gun in a perfectly legal face-to-face sale from a stranger in 2012, and have no paperwork to show that.

Who's to say that you didn't purchase that revo from "someone" this morning and didn't run a background check on it?
What difference does that make? The government is required to prove you DID buy it illegally. It isn't your burden to prove you did not.

If the gun was made before the universal background check law, it means absolutely nothing that you don't have proof of when you bought it, unless you admit you bought it after or the government has an informant who says you did.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:11   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwalchmai View Post
Let's say this ill-conceived affront to liberty passes. Let's say that you then don't ever buy or sell another gun. Then let's say that you get pulled over by a zealous representative of the state and you have your revolver on your seat, in compliance with your local ordinance. Let's further say you bought this gun in a perfectly legal face-to-face sale from a stranger in 2012, and have no paperwork to show that.

Who's to say that you didn't purchase that revo from "someone" this morning and didn't run a background check on it?
That's just one of many problems with the universal background checks, and another reason why gun control laws don't work.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:12   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
What difference does that make? The government is required to prove you DID buy it illegally. It isn't your burden to prove you did not.

If the gun was made before the universal background check law, it means absolutely nothing that you don't have proof of when you bought it, unless you admit you bought it after or the government has an informant who says you did.
Oh. Yeah. I hadn't thought about that.

You think that's how it'll work?
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:16   #6
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Hard to comment without specific legislation proposed yet, but I'd think that the enforcement would come at place of purchase.

Now if you have a gun, they could ask where and when you got it. But I'm thinking the seller is the one who could potentially get in trouble, not someone with a gun.

The feds know about every one of my guns, and personally I don't mind. But I've got nothing to hide, and I welcome police and military friends over to my house.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:18   #7
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Does anybody have the full text of the Universal Background Check law that is being proposed?
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:19   #8
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
What difference does that make? The government is required to prove you DID buy it illegally. It isn't your burden to prove you did not.

If the gun was made before the universal background check law, it means absolutely nothing that you don't have proof of when you bought it, unless you admit you bought it after or the government has an informant who says you did.
The problem is that the law gives LE just another excuse to harm innocent people under color of law. I have been a victim of this. It isn't fun. Cops are going to enthusiastically abuse their power because they know what they can get away with, and they LOVE to harm gun owners, especially the law abiding kind.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:19   #9
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I can see a parallel with another program. In Arizona, and I imagine other states, if you're going to be employed around children then you need to get a background clearance from the state department of public safety (Highway Patrol). You get fingerprinted, fill out the standard FBI fingerprint card and send it off. A couple months later you get your card. Five years later you have to do it again - renew - prints and all. So you have this card you can carry around to prove to your employer, or any prospective new employers, that you have this clearance that says you're a "good guy." Background checks for firearms "could" work like that. You'd have to show your "good guy" card to buy a firearm. Course the current system hasn't curtailed child abuse since most child abuse doesn't come from professionals, it comes from people the kids know - like their parents or a weird uncle...but damn...we got them cards....
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:21   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louisville Glocker View Post
The feds know about every one of my guns, and personally I don't mind. But I've got nothing to hide, and I welcome police and military friends over to my house.
How do the feds know about your guns?
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:24   #11
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Originally Posted by gwalchmai View Post
How do the feds know about your guns?
He mails them regular inventories, just to be up-front.

Sort of like how Chuck Norris lets us all know he's around. . . so we are sort of at fault if we run into one of his fists or feet.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:24   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwalchmai View Post
How do the feds know about your guns?
Through FFL purchase records.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:26   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louisville Glocker View Post
Through FFL purchase records.
I'm not following you. Your FFL reports your purchases to "the feds"?
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:29   #14
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Originally Posted by gwalchmai View Post
I'm not following you. Your FFL reports your purchases to "the feds"?
Well, there are forms filled out with each purchase, yes. Those are available if a Federal agency wanted to look at them. They include all the basic info, gun description, serial number, date of purchase etc.

I don't work at a gun store, so I don't know if that form is transmitted to the state, or if records are just maintained on premises. But I'm pretty darn sure those records don't just get shredded. My understanding is that they are kept on file.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:31   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwalchmai View Post
I'm not following you. Your FFL reports your purchases to "the feds"?
I hope someone will respond to your question. I've often wonder EXACTLY what goes on with the "FFL records" myself. Is a copy of the record sent to some government agency or not? How long are the records maintained?
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:33   #16
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All paper records are kept by the FFL. The only thing the Federales get a type of gun and # of them purchased at that time. They have to go looking to find anything else.

Do they keep records of background checks? Yesno. (No one really knows for sure, but do you trust them????)
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:35   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear62 View Post
I hope someone will respond to your question. I've often wonder EXACTLY what goes on with the "FFL records" myself. Is a copy of the record sent to some government agency or not? How long are the records maintained?
FFL retains the records (4473s) for 20 years. Then can destroy the records.

If the FFL goes out of business, must give the 4473s over to the ATF (who cannot put them in a database) or turn them over to new FFL taking over the business.

The NICS call log is deleted 24 hours after a successful NICS check.

There are two "demand letters that are new-ish"

http://www.justice.gov/oig/reports/A...background.htm

Quote:
Demand Letter Programs. Because some FFLs either ignored trace data requests or were unable to provide NTC analysts with purchaser information from Forms 4473 and their A&D Books, the ATF initiated the Demand Letter I Program in February 2000. The Demand Letter I Program covers FFLs deemed "Uncooperative" by NTC officials because they failed to provide the ATF with purchaser information. FFLs deemed "Uncooperative" are required to submit all Forms 4473 for the previous three years and to continue to submit these Forms on a monthly basis until the ATF determines that they are cooperating. Forty-one FFLs were originally placed in this category. As of April 2004, no FFLs were designated as uncooperative.

Also in February 2000, the ATF initiated the Demand Letter II Program to address FFLs with frequent short time-to-crime traces. The Demand Letter II Program requires FFLs with 15 or more traces of guns within 3 years of initial purchase to submit information quarterly on previously owned firearms acquired from non-FFLs. Originally, 430 FFLs were placed in this category.36 As of April 2004, 271 FFLs were in this category. The actual "Demand Letter" sent to FFLs states that if the FFLs do not respond to the NTC's requests for firearms tracing information, the FFLs' licenses could be revoked. The NTC forwards lists of FFLs subjected to either Demand Letter program to ATF Field Divisions on an annual basis.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:37   #18
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Here's the ATF's comment on how long to keep the records:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/brad...l-nics-records

Quote:
Q: Do FFLs have to keep a copy of ATF Form 4473 if the transaction is denied or for some other reason is not completed?

FFLs must keep a copy of each ATF Form 4473 for which a NICS check has been initiated, regardless of whether the transfer of the firearm was made. If the transfer is not made, the FFL must keep the Form 4473 for 5 years after the date of the NICS inquiry. If the transfer is made, the FFL must keep the Form 4473 for 20 years after the date of the sale or disposition. Forms 4473 with respect to a transfer that did not take place must be separately maintained.

[27 CFR 478.129(b)]
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:38   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louisville Glocker View Post
Well, there are forms filled out with each purchase, yes. Those are available if a Federal agency wanted to look at them. They include all the basic info, gun description, serial number, date of purchase etc.

I don't work at a gun store, so I don't know if that form is transmitted to the state, or if records are just maintained on premises. But I'm pretty darn sure those records don't just get shredded. My understanding is that they are kept on file.
Yes, I think they are kept on file and are available for inspection. The way the system was sold to the subjects is that if LE was investigating a gun used in a crime they could trace the gun to the FFL from the manufacturer/distributor and then use the 4473 info to find the original buyer. It were not to be used to create a registration scheme. i.e., it was not supposed to be a way for "the feds" to know about all of your guns.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:38   #20
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Originally Posted by gwalchmai View Post
Oh. Yeah. I hadn't thought about that.

You think that's how it'll work?
There isn't really another way it can work - that is how law works. Unless they scrap our entire legal system and precedent going back to the Roman Empire, that isn't going to change.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:40   #21
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I'm pretty sure they are required to keep them onsite, and show them to the ATF when requested.

GoogleFU: http://www.fega.com/members/batf.html

Says they have to keep their 'bound book' in order, show it to the ATF of send copies during the course of a criminal investigation, and keep 4473s for at least 20 years.

ETA: several people beat me to it. My typing and GoogleFU obviously suck!

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Old 02-04-2013, 07:42   #22
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Quote:
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There isn't really another way it can work - that is how law works. Unless they scrap our entire legal system and precedent going back to the Roman Empire, that isn't going to change.
Yes. Well. No chance of that, I guess.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:45   #23
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Or, they pass such a law, and a few years pass..

Then someone raises the concern presented in the OP, and that is used as justification for an additional law requiring universal registration of all legally-owned firearms.
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:55   #24
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Originally Posted by Dennis in MA View Post
All paper records are kept by the FFL. The only thing the Federales get a type of gun and # of them purchased at that time. They have to go looking to find anything else.

Do they keep records of background checks? Yesno. (No one really knows for sure, but do you trust them????)
Among Obama's 23-points of illumination towards a violence free society is extending the retention of 4473 records with permanent retention of rejected/denied 4473s. I think that's right...
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Old 02-04-2013, 07:57   #25
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Originally Posted by Dennis in MA View Post
He mails them regular inventories, just to be up-front.

Sort of like how Chuck Norris lets us all know he's around. . . so we are sort of at fault if we run into one of his fists or feet.
Awesome!
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