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Old 02-04-2013, 21:01   #76
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
Case law or precedent? Geez, that would take an awful lot of research if it even exists. And, I'm not sure I'm making an argument for a hierarchy within the Bill of Rights but rather that the BOR is to be held in higher esteem than subsequent amendments, though perhaps not technically legally.

However, the fact that the predominant framers were heavily influenced by Locke is plainly evident and documented. They incorporated much of his philosophy on natural rights into the Constitution. The very document itself is a virtual testament to his thinking.

First there was man. Then there was government. Man possessed certain inalienable rights before government and retained them for himself. Man has a right to self-defense, self-determination -- none of which is possible if the state has a monopoly on force. Man doesn't have a natural right to arms, per se, until they exist. Without them he cannot defend his other natural rights to life, liberty and property, self-determination and a government of his own making serving him, instead of him serving the government.

So perhaps it is emotion that makes me hold the top 10 in much higher esteem than the rest. Without them we would have no Constitution or would not have the Constitution we have. They are the guarantor of our natural rights. The rest that followed were "political" and many were promoted to subvert the top 10, some good and many bad. Some addressed true shortcomings of the founders where they contradicted their own guiding principles, like the 13th and the 15th. For someone to apply that same premise to the 2nd is intellectually dishonest or downright deceitful.
So, you feel that the Second is more important. That's emotion, not law. HH
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Old 02-04-2013, 21:15   #77
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So, you feel that the Second is more important. That's emotion, not law. HH
I never said it was law. Though I follow most of them I don't have a great deal of respect for the law. Though you may be right, I'm not ready to say it is emotion either. I prefer rational analysis. My conclusion is that the top 10 retain a higher level of importance than the other 17.
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Old 02-04-2013, 21:17   #78
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
I honestly don't know if you have me confused with anyone else. As for my standing, it all depends on the issue. I don't fall into anyone's predefined box.



I'm an enigma, wrapped in a puzzle, ensconced in a jelly doughnut.
It appears I was right.

Perhaps instead of issues or laws we should base discussions on principles. They seem to cut through the others.
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Old 02-04-2013, 21:21   #79
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I never said it was law. Though I follow most of them I don't have a great deal of respect for the law. Though you may be right, I'm not ready to say it is emotion either. I prefer rational analysis. My conclusion is that the top 10 retain a higher level of importance than the other 17.
My concern is that a future SCOTUS uses "rational analysis" to decide which amendments matter. Either they are all equal...or they are all meaningless. HH
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Old 02-04-2013, 21:23   #80
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
It appears I was right.

Perhaps instead of issues or laws we should base discussions on principles. They seem to cut through the others.
This isn't a discussion of principals. The question was raised of whether anti-gunners should be called traitors.

Traitor has a very specific definition under law.


It's seems pretty unsurprising that, when your points are negated by proven law, your response is to fall back and say "well, I'm not TALKING about law!!" but, see, the Constitution was written as the groundwork for LAW, not principal.

You're trying to make two different arguments, and therefore are making both of them badly.


I absolutely, 100% support the 2nd Amendment, to the point that, locally, folks think I'm nuts and uncaring about the innocent lives at Sandy Hook, etc, etc. But the simple fact is that I look at the issue as a matter of LAW, not rhetoric or emotion.
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Old 02-04-2013, 21:25   #81
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My concern is that a future SCOTUS uses "rational analysis" to decide which amendments matter. Either they are all equal...or they are all meaningless. HH
I see your point and suggest that's why the 2nd holds more importance than many of the rest.

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Old 02-04-2013, 21:29   #82
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This isn't a discussion of principals.
It most certainly is.

Quote:
The question was raised of whether anti-gunners should be called traitors.

Traitor has a very specific definition under law.


It's seems pretty unsurprising that, when your points are negated by proven law, your response is to fall back and say "well, I'm not TALKING about law!!" but, see, the Constitution was written as the groundwork for LAW, not principal.

You're trying to make two different arguments, and therefore are making both of them badly.


I absolutely, 100% support the 2nd Amendment, to the point that, locally, folks think I'm nuts and uncaring about the innocent lives at Sandy Hook, etc, etc. But the simple fact is that I look at the issue as a matter of LAW, not rhetoric or emotion.
The Constitution was 100% written based on principle that was to serve as groundwork for the law.

And so I'm back full circle. Liberal progressives are traitors, based on the legal definition. They are enemies of the Constitution, domestic.
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Old 02-04-2013, 22:07   #83
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Anti-anything is a go. As long as their actions are not explessly forbidden by the Constitution.

I'd rather ignore some christian supremacist making a fool of themselves at a funeral, than be informed by my government that Citizens are legitimate targets by their own militarys unmanned aircraft.

We need to spend our votes more prudently than FedNotes, because that's where it all starts. Once it's done, that person IS the Government- our duly elected official. Every time they ask for something, tell them to read the rules, they don't get more- power, credit, control etc etc. They work for us, they are us, they must be expected to always do as we wish. All dictated by the Constitution. The rules.
A Democratic Government depends upon it's Citizens informed participation to operate properly.

Remember to read, understand,
and follow the Constitution.
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Old 02-04-2013, 22:13   #84
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It most certainly is.



The Constitution was 100% written based on principle that was to serve as groundwork for the law.

And so I'm back full circle. Liberal progressives are traitors, based on the legal definition. They are enemies of the Constitution, domestic.
So, your defense is a principle? HH
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Old 02-04-2013, 22:24   #85
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So, your defense is a principle? HH
Defense of what?
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Old 02-04-2013, 22:41   #86
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
The Constitution was 100% written based on principle that was to serve as groundwork for the law.

And so I'm back full circle. Liberal progressives are traitors, based on the legal definition. They are enemies of the Constitution, domestic.
So since the Supreme Court ruled abortion a fundamental right under the Constitution, "pro life" people are traitors based on the legal definition. They are enemies of the Constitution, domestic.
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Old 02-05-2013, 00:30   #87
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The 2A gives us the ability ta defend the other ones.'08.
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Old 02-05-2013, 00:54   #88
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Depends on the anti's in question.

The soccer mom down the street who "hates" guns because she's never even held one and doesn't know Jack Schitt about them?

The hippy who thinks we should all live in peace around a campfire singing "We are the world"?

The movie star who might be best known for portraying angry violent people with guns shooting every enemy?

Or the shallow minded person who believes there's a simple solution to a complex problem and by getting rid of guns all the violence on the news will disappear?

Nah. They ain't traitors. They may be ignorant, misinformed, brainwashed, unable to grasp complex subjects or just unwilling to think a subject through to it's logical conclusion.

They can yell and holler all they want, and though I may wish for a bus to come along and shut 'em up, they're still just misinformed, lazy thinking idiots and possibly cowards. But not traitors.

Now, the money grubbing, power hungry, elitist, scumbag politicians and activist judges who can actually do some damage, the media who vomits all the misinformation and turns nutjobs who kill children into household names so the next nutjob has a goal to shoot for (pun intended). Yeah, they're traitors, the politicians took an oath to abide by the COTUS and they know damn well what it says and what it means. They know exactly what the Framers meant by "Shall not be infringed", don't tell me they've never read any of the other documents, letters, essays and papers that expands on what the COTUS says.

Yeah, they're traitors.
Well said, I agree.

The worst traitor that should have been tried for treason was the ***t Jane Fonda.
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Old 02-05-2013, 04:57   #89
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I think that anyone who freely gives away their birthright is a traitor. They are screwing themselves, everyone who came before them and the generations yet to come.

People don't understand how unique this country is in human history.

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Old 02-05-2013, 05:52   #90
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Originally Posted by N4LP View Post
So since the Supreme Court ruled abortion a fundamental right under the Constitution, "pro life" people are traitors based on the legal definition. They are enemies of the Constitution, domestic.
The SCOTUS is often wrong and very political. I wouldn't go using its rulings as your compass.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:31   #91
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Originally Posted by Aurora View Post
I think that anyone who freely gives away their birthright is a traitor. They are screwing themselves, everyone who came before them and the generations yet to come.

People don't understand how unique this country is in human history.

V.
Agreed! What is it that makes us unique? What is it that makes it clear that power belongs in the hands of the People? It's the Constitution. It should not be trivialized to suit personal agenda. It should not be altered to suit the whim of those in Office at the time. It is who We are as Americans.
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:35   #92
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I'd call them green light targets.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:25   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
The SCOTUS is often wrong and very political. I wouldn't go using its rulings as your compass.
What I believe is meant by this is "I don't agree with it, so it's wrong. If I agreed with it, then it would be the absolute law and rule and anyone that thinks differently is a traitor."

If we don't use the SCOTUS as a guide for LEGAL STANDING (because, again, you're missing the point that this is a legal discussion), then does that mean we shouldn't be surprised if/when states use their rights to disregard Heller and McDonald because "the SCOTUS is often wrong"? You'd agree with states that did that, right, because you've already established that you don't think SCOTUS is a good compass.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:43   #94
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The SCOTUS is far more political than judicial anymore.'08.
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Old 02-05-2013, 09:15   #95
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
What I believe is meant by this is "I don't agree with it, so it's wrong. If I agreed with it, then it would be the absolute law and rule and anyone that thinks differently is a traitor."

If we don't use the SCOTUS as a guide for LEGAL STANDING (because, again, you're missing the point that this is a legal discussion), then does that mean we shouldn't be surprised if/when states use their rights to disregard Heller and McDonald because "the SCOTUS is often wrong"? You'd agree with states that did that, right, because you've already established that you don't think SCOTUS is a good compass.
You can abrogate your responsibility to understand your natural rights and defend them, by bowing to the SCOTUS. It's the easy choice. But you're missing a fundamental point: SCOTUS isn't the final word. The People have the final word. The People give the SCOTUS its authority and The People can take it away. The government will hire enforcers to try to make it appear that the SCOTUS has the final word but natural rights argue otherwise. They pre-date the SCOTUS.

Again, dependent on the second amendment........
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Old 02-05-2013, 09:57   #96
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Liberal progressives at large should be considered traitors and enemies of the Constitution.
Your views are among the craziest on GT. You have no understanding of the word "traitor"

You have declared progressives to be traitors.

You have no understanding of history.

Did you know the progressive movement is over 100 year old?

Did you know the first progressive President was Teddy Roosevelt?

Did you know that until the Tea Party, all Democrats and the vast majority of Republicans have been progressives (by your definition.)?

Did you know by your definition all our Presidents since Teddy Roosevelt have been progressives?

By standard definitions, the following presidents were progressives.

Theodore Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, Woodrow Wilson, Hubert Hoover, Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower, John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, and Barack Obama.

You have called them all traitors for being progressives.

The leaders who lead and fought for our freedoms in WWII (FDR, General Eisenhower, and JFK) are traitors?

NICE!
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:25   #97
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Originally Posted by philipk View Post
Your views are among the craziest on GT. You have no understanding of the word "traitor"

You have declared progressives to be traitors.

You have no understanding of history.

Did you know the progressive movement is over 100 year old?

Did you know the first progressive President was Teddy Roosevelt?

Did you know that until the Tea Party, all Democrats and the vast majority of Republicans have been progressives (by your definition.)?

Did you know by your definition all our Presidents since Teddy Roosevelt have been progressives?

By standard definitions, the following presidents were progressives.

Theodore Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, Woodrow Wilson, Hubert Hoover, Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower, John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, and Barack Obama.

You have called them all traitors for being progressives.

The leaders who lead and fought for our freedoms in WWII (FDR, General Eisenhower, and JFK) are traitors?

NICE!
Yes, I knew all of that. Cool huh?

PhilipK - refresh my memory but aren't you a Progressive too?
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:31   #98
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Specifically every politician, military person, police officer, judge, etc who swears an oath to protect and defend the constitution of the USA is a liar and traitor IF and when they decide the 2nd Amendment is only a convenience that can be bypassed.

Specifically, I wish folks like Holder, Obama, Cuomo, Schumer, et al could be charged and tried for crimes against the state, because really, their actions border on criminal.

Simply replace "2nd amendment" with "1st amendment" to see the point.

- G
They don't just BORDER on criminal...
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Old 02-05-2013, 12:09   #99
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Originally Posted by Gallium View Post
Specifically every politician, military person, police officer, judge, etc who swears an oath to protect and defend the constitution of the USA is a liar and traitor IF and when they decide the 2nd Amendment is only a convenience that can be bypassed.

Specifically, I wish folks like Holder, Obama, Cuomo, Schumer, et al could be charged and tried for crimes against the state, because really, their actions border on criminal.

Simply replace "2nd amendment" with "1st amendment" to see the point.

- G
Were any of the LEO gun grabbers after Katrina prosecuted? I honestly don't know. They certainly should be in jail.
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Old 02-05-2013, 12:13   #100
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Defense of what?
Defense of your position that the Second is more important than the other amendments simply due to your emotions. Again, can you provide either case law or precident? HH
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