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Old 02-04-2013, 18:50   #51
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
The 16th is less important than the 2nd.

The 2nd is less important than the 16th.



Both are amendments to the Constitution. Both carry the same weight of law. If you agree with the first statement, then you are no better than those who agree with the second.
Nice try.

The 2nd is a natural right.

The 17th is to destroy the 10th.
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Old 02-04-2013, 18:52   #52
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The bill of rights was a condition of the ratification of the COTUS

If the second was repealed the American people have every moral right to ignore it

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Old 02-04-2013, 18:56   #53
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Nice try.

The 2nd is a natural right.

The 17th is to destroy the 10th.
Contrary to rhetoric, there are no true "natural rights". They were codified and recorded on paper by men.

And they were the ones that the Founders had in mind at the time. However, they knew there would be a need for other amendments, which is why they included a METHOD to amend the Constitution.

BTW, my example was the 16th, not the 17th. If you going to make fallacious arguments, at least try to make the correct fallacious argument, hmm?
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Old 02-04-2013, 18:58   #54
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
Contrary to rhetoric, there are no true "natural rights". They were codified and recorded on paper by men.

And they were the ones that the Founders had in mind at the time. However, they knew there would be a need for other amendments, which is why they included a METHOD to amend the Constitution.

BTW, my example was the 16th, not the 17th. If you going to make fallacious arguments, at least try to make the correct fallacious argument, hmm?
I was under no false assumptions that someone like you would recognize natural rights. No worries
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Old 02-04-2013, 19:00   #55
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traitor? that's a bit much.

not all non gun owners are antis.

some antis think with emotion over logic.

some are control freaks, that will take away rights if they can, and they will not stop with 2nd ammendment rights.

the broad brush logic applies here, i think.
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Old 02-04-2013, 19:01   #56
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Natural rights preexisted codification. Government was formed to protect them
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Old 02-04-2013, 19:47   #57
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Natural rights preexisted codification. Government was formed to protect them
So, then, you're implying that guns and militia are naturally-occurring phenomena?

Because I don't grasp how you can have a NATURAL right to a MAN-MADE object...

And if you care to go the Biblical route, God gave Commandments to Moses, and guns weren't on there.



Perhaps the confusion comes from the fact that Heston played Moses?
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Old 02-04-2013, 20:16   #58
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
So, then, you're implying that guns and militia are naturally-occurring phenomena?

Because I don't grasp how you can have a NATURAL right to a MAN-MADE object...

And if you care to go the Biblical route, God gave Commandments to Moses, and guns weren't on there.



Perhaps the confusion comes from the fact that Heston played Moses?
Like I said, didn't expect someone like you to respect natural rights.

These things were very obviously at the root of the formation of these United States. Progressives seek to tear them down to empower the state at the expense of the individual. I know where you're coming from. Don't worry.

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Old 02-04-2013, 20:19   #59
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Nice try.

The 2nd is a natural right.

The 17th is to destroy the 10th.
You're putting emotion into it. HH
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Old 02-04-2013, 20:22   #60
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Hating the Second Ammendment makes you no more of a traitor than those who hate the Sixteenth and Seventeenth, for example. HH
Hating an amendment is different than actively trying to circumvent one. There is certainly a double standard at play. If you don't pay taxes, your assets are seized and you're thrown in jail. If you sabotage elections, then you're thrown in jail (sometimes). If you ban/restrict any type of arms, you're considered a hero.
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Old 02-04-2013, 20:24   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
So, then, you're implying that guns and militia are naturally-occurring phenomena?

Because I don't grasp how you can have a NATURAL right to a MAN-MADE object...

And if you care to go the Biblical route, God gave Commandments to Moses, and guns weren't on there.



Perhaps the confusion comes from the fact that Heston played Moses?
Explore Locke and Paine. It will scare someone like you but read anyway.

The People created the government. We reserved natural rights for ourselves. We had them before we created the government. The government has no purview over them.

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Old 02-04-2013, 20:25   #62
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You're putting emotion into it. HH
How so, HH?
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Old 02-04-2013, 20:26   #63
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
So, then, you're implying that guns and militia are naturally-occurring phenomena?

Because I don't grasp how you can have a NATURAL right to a MAN-MADE object...

And if you care to go the Biblical route, God gave Commandments to Moses, and guns weren't on there.



Perhaps the confusion comes from the fact that Heston played Moses?
Natural right to defense of self and of others. If you're not allowed to have modern tools for defense, and others are, then your ability to defend yourself or others is diminished. If done on a large scale, you frequently wind up with human rights violations like ethnic cleansing or genocide.
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Old 02-04-2013, 20:28   #64
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How so, HH?
I'm getting the impression that you feel the Second is somehow more important than the other amendments. Would you be able to cite either case law or precident supporting a hierarchy in the Bill of Rights? HH
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Old 02-04-2013, 20:30   #65
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Thats insane! It doesnt say in the 2nd amendment that you have the right to bear arms at the governments discretion.
Exactly. This is why I want to be able to own an RPG, a Stinger Missle, and some ICBMs. SHouldn't I be able to own Anthrax and perhaps carry some chemical weapons around with me? The 2nd Amendment says so.
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Old 02-04-2013, 20:32   #66
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Yes, this administration belongs behind bars and I bet there's 4 Americans in their graves from Benghazi right now agreeing with me
Don't forget the thousands dead in regards to the previous administration.
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Old 02-04-2013, 20:33   #67
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Well, to stand against the Constitution only makes your action illegal thus you are a criminal. To be found a traitor, the US would have to be at war. Oh wait, we do have the war on terrorism, the war on poverty, the war on drugs........ I wonder how much a good set of gallows cost.
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Old 02-04-2013, 20:34   #68
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Explore Locke and Paine. It will scare someone like you but read anyway.

The People created the government. We reserved natural rights for ourselves. We had them before we created the government. The government has no purview over them.
HH is right about you infusing emotion into the argument, because you have no idea what I think about any of it.

Just because I believe the laws were written by men - and they were, of that there is no doubt, none, at all - doesn't mean I don't support them.

Just because I don't put the 2nd Amendment on a pedestal above the other 9 in the Bill of Rights, or any of the other 17, doesn't mean I don't support it whole-heartedly.

You seem to think that because I don't spout the same rhetoric as you - and it IS rhetoric - that I'm somehow less intelligent or less "American" than you. You're coming at it from an emotional rather than a rational point of view, regardless of what you tell yourself.

And that's your right. You're entitled to your views. Trying to insult or denigrate me because my views are different sounds an AWFUL lot like what people say about "crazy gun owners".
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Old 02-04-2013, 20:38   #69
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Originally Posted by ChiTownPicaro View Post
Exactly. This is why I want to be able to own an RPG, a Stinger Missle, and some ICBMs. SHouldn't I be able to own Anthrax and perhaps carry some chemical weapons around with me? The 2nd Amendment says so.
Difference between arms and heavy weaponry. Cannons were more legal back then but were subject to restrictions that arms weren't.
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Old 02-04-2013, 20:46   #70
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...the FCC exists...

Originally the FCC was created to allocate what was perceived as a very limited spectrum of useable radio frequencies among competing requests. These requests were made by different entities to "serve the public" since the spectrum was considered to belong to the public as a whole. This was in the beginning primarily a technical function to prevent signal interference by stations within an area and/or from other areas.

Naturally this was a "nose under the tent" situation and the FCC in its wisdom determined that certain things -Carlin's seven banned words, pornography, etc - did not serve the public.

But initially the FCC was intended to be like air traffic control - allocating space without being unduly concerned with what was carried in that space.


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Old 02-04-2013, 20:48   #71
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I'm getting the impression that you feel the Second is somehow more important than the other amendments. Would you be able to cite either case law or precident supporting a hierarchy in the Bill of Rights? HH
Case law or precedent? Geez, that would take an awful lot of research if it even exists. And, I'm not sure I'm making an argument for a hierarchy within the Bill of Rights but rather that the BOR is to be held in higher esteem than subsequent amendments, though perhaps not technically legally.

However, the fact that the predominant framers were heavily influenced by Locke is plainly evident and documented. They incorporated much of his philosophy on natural rights into the Constitution. The very document itself is a virtual testament to his thinking.

First there was man. Then there was government. Man possessed certain inalienable rights before government and retained them for himself. Man has a right to self-defense, self-determination -- none of which is possible if the state has a monopoly on force. Man doesn't have a natural right to arms, per se, until they exist. Without them he cannot defend his other natural rights to life, liberty and property, self-determination and a government of his own making serving him, instead of him serving the government.

So perhaps it is emotion that makes me hold the top 10 in much higher esteem than the rest. Without them we would have no Constitution or would not have the Constitution we have. They are the guarantor of our natural rights. The rest that followed were "political" and many were promoted to subvert the top 10, some good and many bad. Some addressed true shortcomings of the founders where they contradicted their own guiding principles, like the 13th and the 15th. For someone to apply that same premise to the 2nd is intellectually dishonest or downright deceitful.
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Old 02-04-2013, 20:50   #72
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HH is right about you infusing emotion into the argument, because you have no idea what I think about any of it.

Just because I believe the laws were written by men - and they were, of that there is no doubt, none, at all - doesn't mean I don't support them.

Just because I don't put the 2nd Amendment on a pedestal above the other 9 in the Bill of Rights, or any of the other 17, doesn't mean I don't support it whole-heartedly.

You seem to think that because I don't spout the same rhetoric as you - and it IS rhetoric - that I'm somehow less intelligent or less "American" than you. You're coming at it from an emotional rather than a rational point of view, regardless of what you tell yourself.

And that's your right. You're entitled to your views. Trying to insult or denigrate me because my views are different sounds an AWFUL lot like what people say about "crazy gun owners".
It is possible that I have you confused with someone else, and if I do I sincerely apologize, but to the best of my recollection you're a liberal progressive. No?
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Old 02-04-2013, 20:53   #73
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Difference between arms and heavy weaponry. Cannons were more legal back then but were subject to restrictions that arms weren't.
Cannons were returned to communities, not individuals after the Revolution.

FWIW
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Old 02-04-2013, 20:53   #74
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Exactly. This is why I want to be able to own an RPG, a Stinger Missle, and some ICBMs. SHouldn't I be able to own Anthrax and perhaps carry some chemical weapons around with me? The 2nd Amendment says so.
Foolish assertion.

Arms common to the soldiers of the time. Yes, you should be able to own an RPG. Most certainly. Whatever is needed to sufficiently arm a militia. Do you not think that farmers had cannons in their barns?
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Old 02-04-2013, 20:57   #75
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It is possible that I have you confused with someone else, and if I do I sincerely apologize, but to the best of my recollection you're a liberal progressive. No?
I honestly don't know if you have me confused with anyone else. As for my standing, it all depends on the issue. I don't fall into anyone's predefined box.



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