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Old 01-31-2013, 11:43   #1
Lord
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Letter template to use when complaining about No Guns Allowed

To all GT members reading this:

This is a form letter for anyone to use in making your concerns known to any business that prohibits the concealed carrying of firearms at their place of business, store, etc. You may copy and edit this at will, print for mailing, use in email or online forms without restriction. It was written by me for this express purpose, but is not intended to be a coverall, catchall, etc. Different circumstances call for different measures. This letter is only to serve as either something that you can use quickly, or as a guideline for you to create your own letter from. It is nothing more than a template for you to go by.

Edit: It is a TOOL to be used to INFORM. In no way, shape, or form is it intended to try to tell a business owner that they have no right to ban concealed carry in their places of business, but merely here to let them know why you won't be shopping there anymore. Attn: Business owners: no one questions your right to do so, we're just letting you know why we choose to go elsewhere.
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======================== do not copy above this line =============================


[Your Name]
[Street Address]
[City, ST ZIP Code]
[Date]


[Recipient Name]
[Title]
[Company Name]
[Street Address]
[City, ST ZIP Code]


Dear [Recipient Name]:

RE: Prohibition of Law Abiding Citizens ability to conceal carry legally owned firearms in your establishment

I have been a loyal consumer of your business for [approximate length of time] and have had no issue with shopping there. In fact, each visit was a pleasant experience until the latest one.

When I arrived at your place of business, I was extremely disappointed to find that someone had posted a [No Firearms sign | 30.06 Criminal Trespass By Concealed Handgun License holder sign | choose appropriate sign type for your state/region] at the entrance to the business, which effectively prohibits a law abiding citizen in possession of a [CCW Permit | Concealed Handgun License | choose permit/license type here] from carrying their weapon on your premises. I have been a licensed, concealed handgun carrier since [enter timeframe here] and I take strong exception to any business posting such signs and banning my ability to carry therein. While I acknowledge your right as the establishment’s owner or owner’s agent to impose such a ban and will respect your position, there are several reasons behind my concern and ultimate decision to no longer engage in commerce with you or at any of your business locations or affiliates.

As a [CCW | CHL] holder, I have undergone training and a background check through NICS, State Police and FBI databases; I am a responsible gun owner/carrier and have been found to be a law abiding citizen with no criminal record. This being said, your banning people such as myself, the law abiding citizens, means that from this point on, your establishment is considered a “gun free zone”. Any place that is a considered or marked as a “gun free zone” means that only criminals will have guns in that “gun free zone”. Places like Columbine High School, the theater in Aurora Colorado, Sandy Hook elementary school, and Oak Creek were all “gun free zones”, and that did nothing to stop the tragedies that occurred at each of those places. In fact, it made matters worse. Such tragedies do not happen in places that are not “gun free zones”, and personally I choose to not be in such a place where I am unable to defend myself, my family, others near me, or even you should the unthinkable happen.

These signs not only take away my right to carry my firearm in your location(s), but it also announces to criminals that you have a target rich victim environment for them to exploit, and basically invites them to do so.

Should you change your mind and position on this matter, and remove any restrictions on the law abiding citizens from legally carry firearms within your place(s) of business, I would be happy to return to re-engage in commerce and conduct business with you or your agents. Until that happens, neither myself, or my family will return and I will make it my business to inform each and every person I know, and even those I don’t know, that you take an anti-Second Amendment stance.


Sincerely,

[Your name and Title (if any) here]


Cc:
[Name and address of anyone else you will be sending this letter to]

Enclosure:
[Title of any supporting documents or attachments to this letter]
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Last edited by Lord; 02-01-2013 at 15:17..
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Old 02-01-2013, 07:16   #2
Leigh
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No offense, but your Second Amendment rights end when you enter onto private property.

Your RKBA rights do not trump my rights as a property owner and like it or not, they never will.

The Constitution was written as a tool to protect citizens from the GOVERNMENT, not from each other.

I own and operate a small business that is open to the public and I do not post signs promoting nor denying CCW.

However, it is MY right to decide how I manage my business just as you have the right to spend YOUR money elsewhere.

"Voting" with your wallet makes more of a statement to a business than any letter, no matter how polite or well-written.
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Old 02-01-2013, 07:20   #3
skew12
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Not bad.
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Old 02-01-2013, 14:05   #4
Jerry
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
No offense, but your Second Amendment rights end when you enter onto private property.

Your RKBA rights do not trump my rights as a property owner and like it or not, they never will.
No offense, but you'd better reread his letter. He explain that pretty darn well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
The Constitution was written as a tool to protect citizens from the GOVERNMENT, not from each other.
I don't believe he said it did or don't. And I'm pretty darn sure he knows that. The kid ain't no dummy.

If you don't like what he wrote change it. His reason for posting it is to HELP. It's not written in stone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
I own and operate a small business that is open to the public and I do not post signs promoting nor denying CCW.

However, it is MY right to decide how I manage my business just as you have the right to spend YOUR money elsewhere.

"Voting" with your wallet makes more of a statement to a business than any letter, no matter how polite or well-written.
You are absolutely correct about that sir. But tell me how they know that at one time you spent your money at their store and that you no longer do if you don't tell them. We're not talking about a corner store where they know everyone that comes in.
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Old 02-01-2013, 15:04   #5
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I will approach this step by step.

First, this letter is a template for anyone to use as a tool of politely informing a business owner such as yourself of the reasons why a consumer such as myself would not longer conduct business with you. Consider a scenario:

You run your business and for an unknown reason to you, business suddenly takes a drastic decline. So you take steps to increase that business but you can't figure out why nothing seems to help. Suddenly, you receive a letter similar to the template posted and it becomes clear that the decline in business is a self inflicted problem. you remove the sign, and magically your business begins to thrive again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
No offense, but your Second Amendment rights end when you enter onto private property.
That was acknowledged in the spirit and the body of the letter, where I clearly stated:

"While I acknowledge your right as the establishment’s owner or owner’s agent to impose such a ban and will respect your position, there are several reasons behind my concern and ultimate decision to no longer engage in commerce with you or at any of your business locations or affiliates. "

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
Your RKBA rights do not trump my rights as a property owner and like it or not, they never will.
Again, that has been acknowledged, but for you I will take this a slight step farther. You are obviously strong feeling when it comes to your rights as a business owner, but making the statement above, in my own opinion, is akin to stating that you don't care a single bit about your customers when it comes to YOUR business. That's ok. Just FYI... you should probably be told that it's the customers that keep you in business. You may want to care just a slight bit more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
The Constitution was written as a tool to protect citizens from the GOVERNMENT, not from each other.
Are you a business owner, or law professor specializing in constitutional law? Perhaps you're a psychologist that has some special insight into what the forefathers were thinking when they drafted the law? Or maybe, you're simply regurgitating what you've heard someone else say? It doesn't matter. The right to keep and bear arms was guaranteed by the 2A, and while it may be arguable what the intention was, it's very clear in today's law that as a law abiding citizen there are two things that are not arguable. 1. I have a license and have a right to carry, 2. I have a right to defend myself(family etc) from harm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
I own and operate a small business that is open to the public and I do not post signs promoting nor denying CCW.

However, it is MY right to decide how I manage my business just as you have the right to spend YOUR money elsewhere.
No one ever disputed that or called it into question. Just in case you missed it in the letter (obviously you did) and just in case you missed it in Jerry's explanation, or even my own above, no one ever tried to say that you didn't have that right. In fact, your right to do so was clearly acknowledged, as well as the intention to abide by your wishes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
"Voting" with your wallet makes more of a statement to a business than any letter, no matter how polite or well-written.
I disagree. I think they go hand in hand. Not only does a business owner need to know that his business declined, if even by a single customer, but he probably should know why it did.

Slow your roll, man. your reaction appears to be somewhat knee jerk, and there's plenty of that going on in Washington right now. If you don't like the letter, you're free to not like it. If you wouldn't care that customers don't trade in your business, that's up to you too. But ease up on the rest of us that feel we should be heard too, because it's OUR right to be heard.
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Last edited by Lord; 02-01-2013 at 15:12..
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Old 02-01-2013, 21:56   #6
plainsman
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Sometimes antigun groups put businesses up to this.

With tales of shootouts and mishaps in their store.

These misguided people think that if they post a sign, they are doing something, but as was pointed out, it keeps the people with the cleanest backgrounds, and those most law abiding out, who honor that sign.

If a business chooses to exclude CCW fine, but since a business invites the public on their property, and if anything happens on the property, fails to protect them, then we need to sue the hell out of them for creating a criminal nuisance of a place where people were denied a means of protection, and they failed to have armed security to protect them in it's place, leaving the public as sitting ducks.

These businesses need to know in addition to losing your business, that criminals are free to break all laws including their stupid sign, and will not be hampered from coming in. Sandy Hood, and Virginia tec were also "gun free" zones.
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Old 02-05-2013, 14:30   #7
Leigh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord View Post
Slow your roll, man. your reaction appears to be somewhat knee jerk, and there's plenty of that going on in Washington right now. If you don't like the letter, you're free to not like it. If you wouldn't care that customers don't trade in your business, that's up to you too. But ease up on the rest of us that feel we should be heard too, because it's OUR right to be heard.
Actually, too many folks (your letter included) truly think that businesses care what the customer thinks, especially when it comes to CCW.

As for you being "heard" I don't have the ability to render your opinion pointless or make your post disappear and even if I could, I would not.

I am simply disagreeing with the effectiveness (or lack there of) of your approach.

GT (like a business) is a privately owned site that is open to he public. While staying within the TOS, we can all express how we feel and free to disagree.
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Old 02-05-2013, 14:43   #8
Leigh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord View Post
Are you a business owner, or law professor specializing in constitutional law? Perhaps you're a psychologist that has some special insight into what the forefathers were thinking when they drafted the law? Or maybe, you're simply regurgitating what you've heard someone else say? It doesn't matter. The right to keep and bear arms was guaranteed by the 2A, and while it may be arguable what the intention was, it's very clear in today's law that as a law abiding citizen there are two things that are not arguable. 1. I have a license and have a right to carry, 2. I have a right to defend myself(family etc) from harm.
No need to get smug.

I'm not disputing RKBA and its intent and never have.
Being a shooter for 30+ years, a Marine for 4 years, and a state certified CCW instructor since 2001, I clearly understand exactly why the 2A was drafted and what it means.

BTW, my business is a small pub that serves alcohol...we have seating for 50+ people and derive over 50% of our gross income from food sales so CCW is legal provided the individual is seated in an area "designated for eating." A gray area for sure, but I expect patrons to use prudent judgement.
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Old 02-05-2013, 18:59   #9
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Leigh, please tell me the name of your business. With your attitude towards customers I'd like to make sure I don't send any money your way.

Lord posted that draft at my request. I nor he needed a lecture about property rights. You don't like his draft that's fine. You don't think a letter or E-mail to a business will do any good that's fine. Now back off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Last edited by Jerry; 02-05-2013 at 19:38..
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Old 03-12-2013, 17:45   #10
JabbaNoBother
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Just dont give them your business. I couldn't care less if the owner "knew" that my money was being spent at their location. If the owner went through the trouble of creating and posting a No Firearms sign, I'm sure they aren't going to be phased by a letter expressing ones issue with not being able to carry inside the establishment.
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Old 03-14-2013, 09:09   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JabbaNoBother View Post
Just dont give them your business. I couldn't care less if the owner "knew" that my money was being spent at their location. If the owner went through the trouble of creating and posting a No Firearms sign, I'm sure they aren't going to be phased by a letter expressing ones issue with not being able to carry inside the establishment.
No offense, but the attitude that you present here, is exactly the reason why necessary change never happens. A shrug of the shoulder as one passes by; the plain and obvious apathy... that's exactly the reason why some people do the things they do.. because no one is going to stop them. They are unfazed mainly because no one calls them out on their less than intelligent decisions, which only serves to perpetuate the problem.
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Last edited by Lord; 01-08-2014 at 11:09..
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Old 03-14-2013, 19:26   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord View Post
No offense, but the attitude that you present here, is exactly the reason why necessary change never happens. A shrug of the shoulder as one passes by; the plain and obvious apathy... that's exactly the reason why some people do the things they do.. because no one is going to stop them. They are unfazed mainly because no one calls them out on they're less than intelligent decisions, which only serves to perpetuate the problem.
I beg to differ, as there definitely is no apathy and shrugging going on. Some people you just cannot change their minds, Im ok with that. A store owner who is bent on posting a No Firearms notice most likely will not be swayed by a few dozen letters. An owners store is also his castle, let that person conduct as they seem fit. As I most likely would not want to visit their home...I can certainly do the same with their respective place of business. Dont get me wrong, I appreciate the template you created...gets the point across for someone who want to use it as a model. As for myself, I would choose to just not give them my attention/business.
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Old 07-13-2014, 01:33   #13
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I think I see what Leigh meant...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord View Post
...an anti-Second Amendment stance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
No offense, but your Second Amendment rights end when you enter onto private property.
It seems to me that Leigh acknowledged the intent & efficacy of the letter, but (IMO) only took exception to that last line. The business owner's choice to ban guns on his property has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with his view on the 2A because 2A doesn't apply to a business & its customers. A business owner who staunchly believes in & vehemently defends the 2A may still choose to ban firearms at his home or business - maybe he operates an MRI, or sells metal detectors, or cares for mentally retarded adults, or builds compasses, or trains dogs to sniff for explosives. In any case, his decision to allow (or NOT) guns is entirely independent of his views on the 2A.

I think that's what Leigh was trying to convey, and I agree with it. The letter would be improved by dropping any mention of 2A. Of course, anyone is free to write anything to anyone, but your reader is equally free to judge you based on what you've written.
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Old 07-13-2014, 17:45   #14
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the last two sentences of the first paragraph, and second paragraph in its entirety of my original post:

This letter is only to serve as either something that you can use quickly, or as a guideline for you to create your own letter from. It is nothing more than a template for you to go by.

Edit: It is a TOOL to be used to INFORM. In no way, shape, or form is it intended to try to tell a business owner that they have no right to ban concealed carry in their places of business, but merely here to let them know why you won't be shopping there anymore. Attn: Business owners: no one questions your right to do so, we're just letting you know why we choose to go elsewhere.
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