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Old 01-24-2013, 10:55   #1
WarCry
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An idea that might be better than background checks?

I know that no one wants to talk about anything having to do with something that even REMOTELY resembles gun control, but I hope this can be viewed as just the idea I had, and not turning me into someone coming to get your guns.

NICS (or state equivalent) checks at gunshops or whatever are fine. If the information is updated, it serves a purpose and keeps the honest businesses from inadvertently selling to bad guys. It's not flawless, but it's fairly effective.

Now, for private sales, it's not realistic to expect individuals to have access to that system, and it would be an undue burden to require them to go to an FFL to have the check run.

So, the question then becomes: If you're selling a gun, how do you know you're not selling it to a felon?

The other side of the discussion always seems to come back with folks saying "If you're a felon that shouldn't have a gun, you shouldn't be out of prison." That's not at all realistic. Without getting into all the arguments about who should or shouldn't be in jail or mental institutions, the simple fact is that is NOT the way our system works here.

So why not put it on a drivers licence or state ID?

We put information on there that says you have to wear glasses to drive. It's listed on there (in most states, very boldly) that you're under 21. It's even on a lot of licenses that you're an organ donor.

If you're convicted of a felony, why not make that a stipulation? That you have to have an ID on you at all times after you're released, and that the ID will have a note that says "Felon" or some other word or phrase that indicates this is a restricted person. If the person gets their rights reinstated by the governor or whatever, then this restriction can be removed from the license/ID.

In this way, I don't have to record anything for a face-to-face sale. I ask to see an ID, and if it says "restricted" or whatever, the deal is off.


This is not a 100% foolproof plan. Everyone knows that if you build a better mousetrap, the mouse will get smarter. But I, personally, think this would fill a gap between requiring NICS checks for private sales and preventing innocent folks from selling to felons. It's also a bit of an answer for saying "if you're a felon, you should just stay in jail."
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:09   #2
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In the past, I would require buyers to show me their weapons license, match it to their license, and it would be a deal. Not everyone does that, but it gives me a better peace of mind.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:18   #3
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In the past, I would require buyers to show me their weapons license, match it to their license, and it would be a deal. Not everyone does that, but it gives me a better peace of mind.
That's what I do! Our local indoor range will not let you shoot unless you have a carry permit. It keeps the Gangbangers, felons and scum out where they belong....not on a gun range.

At one point our Carry Permit was used instead of a background check to purchase a pistol but now we have to do a State Police Instant Check....even on long guns. Not sure why that changed.

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Old 01-24-2013, 11:20   #4
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In the past, I would require buyers to show me their weapons license, match it to their license, and it would be a deal. Not everyone does that, but it gives me a better peace of mind.
Not every state - in fact, a lot of states, as far as I know - don't have any kind of weapons license. Here in IL, we have the FOID card system, but that doesn't help me if I'm looking to sell to someone from MO, for instance.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:22   #5
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How are you selling to an out-of-stater in the first place, pilgrim?????
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:38   #6
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To the ops idea, massive fail. Such info on a dl could be massively prejudicial to the holder when interacting with leos, and an invasion of privacy when having to present id to others of whom have no business knowing when simply checking an id. Same concept in jurisprudence when during a court case on a criminal matter it is not allowed to disclose criminal past during trial phase but only allowed at sentencing if convicted. Branding someone w a scarlet letter thats not even current is ridiculous. Plus it would not be updateable since you only get a new card every 4 or 5 years.

A better way would be to have a list of felons constantly updated in realtime to the gun shop and if youre not on it, head for the cashier.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:45   #7
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How about letting everybody who can pass a back ground check get FFL get? It was that way before Clinton.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:45   #8
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The problem with putting convicted felon on an ID card is that while the information is a public record, there are need to know and right to know issues.

Perfect example. I can run just about anyone's criminal history. All I need is a few pieces of info about you and I can read all about it straight from NCICS.

Of course when asking for it I need to put down a case number. That way I can remember why I did it if they audit it. One of our detectives got in a little trouble when he looked up a sex offender for a case but since he didn't put a case number down he couldn't remember why.

Now with those tight of controls on info can we really slap that kind of info on an ID card and not expect problems?
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:11   #9
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This is a good idea. Putting it on a license however is inherently a problem, because the time period can be very great between issuance of licenses.

Maybe someone in the market for a firearm can merely go and get a background check with a certain time limit, saying "valid for thirty days" or something, verifying that he or she is not under any firearm disabilities.

He or she can then present this to any seller, for any number of firearms (or any number of sellers), thereby rendering peace of mind to both parties. It would also put all arguments of backdoor registration to rest. In theory, anyone getting this check can either buy a gun or not, and the government would not have any other involvement.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:22   #10
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How many mass shootings would this stop? Murders? Armed robbery?
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:23   #11
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
Not every state - in fact, a lot of states, as far as I know - don't have any kind of weapons license. Here in IL, we have the FOID card system, but that doesn't help me if I'm looking to sell to someone from MO, for instance.
You can't sell to someone in Missouri unless you go through a dealer with an FFL.

Most states do have concealed carry licenses (which I guess you could consider some sort of weapons permit) so I could decide to only sell my gun to someone with a valid carry permit. But I wouldn't like to see that made law.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:30   #12
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How many mass shootings would this stop? Murders? Armed robbery?
It may prohibit a lot of felons from buying firearms on the open market.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:31   #13
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Here in North Carolina, to buy a gun from a store you have to either have a CCW (background check was run) or have a "Pistol Purchase Permit", which is issued by the Sheriff of whatever county you live in. Yep, background check. Way this works is, you go in and fill out form, if you pass you go in and buy "permits" from the sheriff at $5 each. You want 3 guns, you give them $15 and they give you 3 permits.

If you're a private citizen, maybe law says you get a copy of the CCW, or the buyer has to give you one of the Permits.

With CCW, you get fingerprinted and such.
For the permits, they check to see if you've been committed to mental institution or anything like that. It's a less "deep" background check.

Flesh that system out a little bit, and it prevents crazies from getting guns.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:31   #14
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
Not every state - in fact, a lot of states, as far as I know - don't have any kind of weapons license. Here in IL, we have the FOID card system, but that doesn't help me if I'm looking to sell to someone from MO, for instance.
AFAIK selling to someone in a different state without going through an FFL--and NICS--is a violation of federal law.

It sounds like your 'new' idea is in keeping with all gun laws. By definition they have ZERO effect on people who don't follow the law(s) to begin with.

No thank you.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:38   #15
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
Not every state - in fact, a lot of states, as far as I know - don't have any kind of weapons license. Here in IL, we have the FOID card system, but that doesn't help me if I'm looking to sell to someone from MO, for instance.

You might want to edit this. It is illegal to sale to someone out of state without going through an FFL..
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:45   #16
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How about if they actually prosecute anyone that tries to buy a gun that is on the prohibited list. Supposedly the background check system prevents a large number each year. I know, some of them are on there in error but there are still a lot that have committed a crime by trying. No additional laws needed to do this right now.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:48   #17
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It may prohibit a lot of felons from buying firearms on the open market.
I don 't believe that was the question.
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Old 01-24-2013, 13:10   #18
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You might want to edit this. It is illegal to sale to someone out of state without going through an FFL..
And if WarCry has done this it shows just how pointless that law is. People are going to do it regardless.
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Old 01-24-2013, 13:26   #19
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For clarification, I've never sold a gun to anyone. I didn't know you couldn't sell to someone in another state. I live right on the river, so interaction back and forth between IL and MO residents are pretty damn common. I didn't know you couldn't do that for firearms. Certainly not trying to get anyone in trouble for suggesting they do that!

As for the issue of using a CCW for transactions, the problem with that would be residents of places like AZ, AK, and VT where you don't have any sort of permit like that, to the best of my knowledge.

And yes, I know there are arguments about privacy. But this is something that employers ask for in the hiring process, so I took that to be an indicator that it's not exactly verboten for someone to ask. Having a tag that says "Restricted" or something doesn't tell anyone WHAT a conviction was for - could be murder, could be an aggravated DUI charge (a felony offense for a 3rd or subsequent DUI in IL is classified as "aggravated").

There was a question about length of time in license renewals. License expirations might be 4 or 5 years between them, but a license CAN be reissued at any time if something has changed (address, for instance). So, if there was a felony conviction, you give the person 14 days to show they've got a new license or ID.

Like I said I know this isn't a flawless idea. I'm just trying to thing of actual measures that - while not 100% certain - could hinder the wrong people from getting firearms without adding layers and layers of stuff onto law-abiding citizens. Just putting ideas out there to do exactly what this thread is (so far) doing: Getting a rational, non-argumentative "pros and cons" discussion going.
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Old 01-24-2013, 13:38   #20
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It may prohibit a lot of felons from buying firearms on the open market.
So they will not be able to get firearms if these restrictions are in place? Isn't it illegal for a felon to possess firearms?
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Old 01-24-2013, 13:41   #21
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For clarification, I've never sold a gun to anyone. I didn't know you couldn't sell to someone in another state. I live right on the river, so interaction back and forth between IL and MO residents are pretty damn common. I didn't know you couldn't do that for firearms. Certainly not trying to get anyone in trouble for suggesting they do that!
I live on a border too and wish it were OK to sell or buy from someone in the other state. Lots of things about current gun laws need changed.
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Old 01-24-2013, 13:46   #22
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I don 't believe that was the question.
No it wasn't. But insamuch as the question was rhetorical, (no one really know how many murders or other crimes this may prevent) my retort was a simple statement regarding a point of the thread. So my true answer would be "I don't know". My guess would be probably very few.

Felons indiscriminately buying guns on the open market hurts our cause. Does everyone even agree that steps should be taken to keep felons from openly (as opposed to secretly) buying firearms? They can buy firearms in face to face transactions now, in the open as opposed to clandestinely. Sure, it's still illegal either way. Should steps be taken to discourage felons from obtaining firearms? Not if you're going to take my rights away in doing so.

I think that a generic type background check issued to anyone who requests it would not be infringing on my rights. And the government wouldn't really know if I ended up buying any guns or not. Or how many, or what guns. Or from whom.

I sold a couple of guns lately to two different guys. I had no reason to suspect either of them was a felon or a certified maniac. But I would be more assured if they presented me with something that said so.
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Old 01-24-2013, 13:49   #23
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For clarification, I've never sold a gun to anyone. I didn't know you couldn't sell to someone in another state. I live right on the river, so interaction back and forth between IL and MO residents are pretty damn common. I didn't know you couldn't do that for firearms. Certainly not trying to get anyone in trouble for suggesting they do that!

As for the issue of using a CCW for transactions, the problem with that would be residents of places like AZ, AK, and VT where you don't have any sort of permit like that, to the best of my knowledge.

And yes, I know there are arguments about privacy. But this is something that employers ask for in the hiring process, so I took that to be an indicator that it's not exactly verboten for someone to ask. Having a tag that says "Restricted" or something doesn't tell anyone WHAT a conviction was for - could be murder, could be an aggravated DUI charge (a felony offense for a 3rd or subsequent DUI in IL is classified as "aggravated").

There was a question about length of time in license renewals. License expirations might be 4 or 5 years between them, but a license CAN be reissued at any time if something has changed (address, for instance). So, if there was a felony conviction, you give the person 14 days to show they've got a new license or ID.

Like I said I know this isn't a flawless idea. I'm just trying to thing of actual measures that - while not 100% certain - could hinder the wrong people from getting firearms without adding layers and layers of stuff onto law-abiding citizens. Just putting ideas out there to do exactly what this thread is (so far) doing: Getting a rational, non-argumentative "pros and cons" discussion going.
Here's the rub. Very few felons are getting guns from sales via individuals. What you are purposing will not affect felons from getting weapons. It's spending time, money, and adding restrictions to law abiding citizens. That's why you won't get any support and very little traction. Gun laws are not about felons, they are about disarming the law abiding.
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Old 01-24-2013, 13:57   #24
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No it wasn't. But insamuch as the question was rhetorical, (no one really know how many murders or other crimes this may prevent) my retort was a simple statement regarding a point of the thread. So my true answer would be "I don't know". My guess would be probably very few.

Felons indiscriminately buying guns on the open market hurts our cause. Does everyone even agree that steps should be taken to keep felons from openly (as opposed to secretly) buying firearms? They can buy firearms in face to face transactions now, in the open as opposed to clandestinely. Sure, it's still illegal either way. Should steps be taken to discourage felons from obtaining firearms? Not if you're going to take my rights away in doing so.

I think that a generic type background check issued to anyone who requests it would not be infringing on my rights. And the government wouldn't really know if I ended up buying any guns or not. Or how many, or what guns. Or from whom.

I sold a couple of guns lately to two different guys. I had no reason to suspect either of them was a felon or a certified maniac. But I would be more assured if they presented me with something that said so.
Nothing is stopping your from going to an FFL and having them do a transfer for you on your face to face transactions and having them do the background check. Inviting the Federal government into and private transaction is a bad idea.. period..
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Old 01-24-2013, 13:58   #25
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Here's the rub. Very few felons are getting guns from sales via individuals. What you are purposing will not affect felons from getting weapons. It's spending time, money, and adding restrictions to law abiding citizens. That's why you won't get any support and very little traction. Gun laws are not about felons, they are about disarming the law abiding.
Very few felons are getting guns from sales via individuals? Are you sure about that? Aside from stealing them that is exactly how they are getting them. I have dealt with several cases involving felons being in possession of guns under disability and in less than fifty percent of these cases did the guy actually steal the gun. He just went out and bought it.
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