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Old 01-30-2013, 13:34   #51
whoflungdo
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Per capita lifetime healthcare costs over $300,000. The cost goes up as people age, and for females it's a third higher.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361028/

Anybody here getting younger? Want to opt out of insurance now and pay cash out of pocket or go without later?

I want all Americans to have the best possible care for the most fair individual price. I have no other dog in this fight.
And how do you think Obamacare will do this? You must have several examples where this has been tried in the past and worked out well.
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Old 01-30-2013, 13:42   #52
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"at gunpoint." Then we should all be happy with it! Couldn't resist. Sorry. Not trying to become a troll here. Spent my career seeing the sins of for profit healthcare. I think all patients deserve better. I'm a RN. The nurses job one is "patient advocate." I want the system to be about caring for the sick and injured, not making a profit. Romneycare, Obamacare, or Paul53care! Whatever it takes, we can do better.


Straight out the Comintern Congress. Pure communisim. Profits are evil! You should only perform for the good of the state and the collective good!

A bigger load of commie horse**** there never was.

No actually we cant do much better than the private healthcare system we have (had) . One of the best in the world, so much so that people from around the world come here for the worlds best care.

We should all be happy at gun point? How long have you been on the meds?

How would you like it if someone came along and decided to nationalize what you do for a living? Maybe you make cars and its not fair that some poor people have to walk, so its not really fair that you get paid well so thats going to have to change because its better that everyone gets apiece of your labor at reduced or free cost than others having to walk while you enjoy success.

Get this straight pal...healthcare is about delivery....by people. Pharmacists, nurses, doctors. People. People who paid their way thru college, worked double shifts in emergency rooms...perspired profusely to invent the next lifesaving vaccine, medical equipment, etc. Youre not entitled to it just because your greedy butt wants it. Youre not entitled to it anymore than youre allowed to steal it outright or decide that someone else should have it for free or reduced cost. Slavery was outlawed in the 1860s....youre not entitled to someone elses labor or their freedom as represented by the money you want to steal. If youre a nurse why dont you work for free since you feel so bad ? We'll start by stealing from you first, cause if healthcare is a right you have to stop what youre doing and render it unto me at any time any place at any price or no price at all as i see fit for "my" right.
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Old 01-30-2013, 13:51   #53
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"at gunpoint." Then we should all be happy with it! Couldn't resist. Sorry. Not trying to become a troll here. Spent my career seeing the sins of for profit healthcare. I think all patients deserve better. I'm a RN. The nurses job one is "patient advocate." I want the system to be about caring for the sick and injured, not making a profit. Romneycare, Obamacare, or Paul53care! Whatever it takes, we can do better.
So you think people should work for pure emotional fulfillment? You'd be ok with working for free? I mean so long as you got your rations of bread and soup the government would give you instead.
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Old 01-30-2013, 14:09   #54
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OK. Lets go all out for profit. Police, fire, prisons, military, show a profit!

C'mon guys, lighten up. It's you and your loved ones who I want to get the best healthcare. I'm not the one deciding how. Just an advocate for improvement.

Please don't put words in my mouth, either. I can't afford a dentist right now.
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Old 01-30-2013, 14:35   #55
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Close to 30 minutes and no more abuse. Time to sign up for getting hit on the head lessons.

Thanks all. Health and happiness to you and your loved ones.
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Old 01-30-2013, 14:43   #56
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OK. Lets go all out for profit. Police, fire, prisons, military, show a profit!

C'mon guys, lighten up. It's you and your loved ones who I want to get the best healthcare. I'm not the one deciding how. Just an advocate for improvement.

Please don't put words in my mouth, either. I can't afford a dentist right now.
Actually there are for-profit prisons. In a way there is for-profit military, they're called "private contractors." You didn't mention it, but there are for-profit EMS services. A lot of private ambulance services.

It's not abuse. We're just trying to understand how a person thinks it is a good idea to nationalize something like healthcare.

How many drug companies do you think are interested in spending millions in R&D to develop and produce new drugs and treatments when there is no money to be made?

I don't think you can compare healthcare to police and fire.
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Old 01-30-2013, 14:44   #57
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OK. Lets go all out for profit. Police, fire, prisons, military, show a profit!

C'mon guys, lighten up. It's you and your loved ones who I want to get the best healthcare. I'm not the one deciding how. Just an advocate for improvement.

Please don't put words in my mouth, either. I can't afford a dentist right now.

Nice try. The entities you cite are government. Medical is private sector. Changing the subject is the first sign youre losing the argument.

Lighten up? You start hurling the equivalent of molotov cocktails and then act surprised with a dumb look on your face....after advocating what will end up as the destruction of the finest healthcare system in the world in the name of some unamaerican socialist wet dream?

What you advocate will destroy healthcare not improve it.

We dont have to put words in your mouth. Your own suck bad enough.

So you re a nurse who cant afford a dentist...what are you doing with that paycheck besides signing it over for dues to the communist party?
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Old 01-30-2013, 14:48   #58
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Close to 30 minutes and no more abuse. Time to sign up for getting hit on the head lessons.

Thanks all. Health and happiness to you and your loved ones
Sounds like you took those before arriving.

Ill tell you the same thing id tell any hateful unamerican commie troll: find the nearest cliff and jump off it. Go destroy someone elses country.
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Old 01-30-2013, 15:33   #59
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Ooh, good ones! I'm a nurse, but disabled by muscular Dystrophy. Trying to survive while unable to work and find the right diagnosis (that I hoped would get me back to work) put me into bankruptcy in July of 2011.

As I said before, I only want the healthcare system to improve. I'm not backing any single proposal to do so. I'm not a business or economics major who could work out a good way to improve the healthcare system.

Guess my biggest failing is that I want a perfect system when dealing with peoples lives. Life is the most precious commodity in the world, IMHO. Perhaps we'd just have to trade one flawed system for another.

Thanks for the abuse guys. Time for some sleep for me. GT has been,...... bedy bedy good.........to me.
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Old 01-30-2013, 15:36   #60
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Fixed that for ya....
If you know they are wrong, you must know why. Can you explain?
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Old 01-30-2013, 15:43   #61
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Ooh, good ones! I'm a nurse, but disabled by muscular Dystrophy. Trying to survive while unable to work and find the right diagnosis (that I hoped would get me back to work) put me into bankruptcy in July of 2011.

As I said before, I only want the healthcare system to improve. I'm not backing any single proposal to do so. I'm not a business or economics major who could work out a good way to improve the healthcare system.

Guess my biggest failing is that I want a perfect system when dealing with peoples lives. Life is the most precious commodity in the world, IMHO. Perhaps we'd just have to trade one flawed system for another.

Thanks for the abuse guys. Time for some sleep for me. GT has been,...... bedy bedy good.........to me.

Dont advocate failed leftist statist socialist nonsense capable of destroying our country and you wont hear a peep.
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Old 01-30-2013, 16:13   #62
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Close to 30 minutes and no more abuse. Time to sign up for getting hit on the head lessons.

Thanks all. Health and happiness to you and your loved ones.
How about a reason inoculation? ...for your mental health, of course.

The short answer is that The Affordable Care act will increase costs to provide inferior healthcare while simultaneously eliminating patient choice.

Those who gain coverage under Obamacare will be enrolled in Medicaid, the welfare program for the poor, or in a health plan designed by the government. The millions who remain uninsured will still be crowding emergency rooms.

While the indigent are moving into Medicaid, many of the employed will be losing their health insurance. According to a McKinsey study, 30 percent of employers will opt out of ESI because of expense while another 66% will reduce benefits for the same reason.

New taxes on drug companies ($27 billion) and medical device makers ($20 billion), as well as new reporting requirements and regulations imposed on physicians, will make access to health care and services more costly for consumers.

As you probably know, the states are opting out of the exchanges and 21 State Attorneys General have filed suits to protect their citizens from being forced to purchase government approved health insurance.

$52 billion in new taxes imposed on businesses by mandating employers provide health insurance and new IRS reporting requirements and other business related taxes and regulations will reduce the number of jobs available to Americans.

The 3.8% in new Obamacare taxes on dividends, capital gains and rental income will inhibit investment and will have negative effect on economic growth in our country.

Over the next 10 years Obamacare will cost a $trillion dollars; half of that figure will be added to the deficit, kicking the can down the road for our children to pay.

Your whole argument seems specious to me anyway - 51 cents of every healthcare dollar is spent already spent in the public sector - for Medicare/Medicaid. A quarter is spent for the non-profit Blueshield and Bluecross. Only 25 cents of the healthcare dollar is spent on the for-profit UnitedHealth Group, Wellpoints and Aetnas of the world- companies that have an aspirational profit margin of 3%.

Most hospitals are not profit centers either - most break about even. 15% of hospitals lost money last year - under Obamacare these hospitals will close.

In that 18 million people will be added to the already overburdened Medicaid system, it's interesting to note that according to the AMA, 66% of doctors are contemplating no longer participating in the program because of the currently mandated 56% of market standard reimbursement rate.

There seems to be an egality issue here as well - why should a healthy 25 year old male pay for birth control, abortion and the healthcare needs of the elderly? Ask New Yorkers how well "Community Rating" is working for them. Smart kids will pay the fine.

In the US, 80% of pathology is behavioral - this will never be corrected as long as someone else pays. Obamacare does little to change the etiology of pathology.

Presently, by any standard, the US has the best medical outcomes in the world and the highest creation and use rate of medical technology. Why would you want to change that?
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Old 01-30-2013, 16:36   #63
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What's being shown to me here is that people understand how insurance works just about as well as Diane Feinstein understands what an assault weapon is. I'll leave it to others to argue the points if they care to try, because when you try to inform someone who refuses to be informed, it's just a dead end.

Much like debating with an anti-gunner who just won't listen to facts and reason, too many people are responding with emotion and rhetoric. Y'all have fun with that.
I would say look in the mirror, but it you already told us that won't do any good.
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Old 01-30-2013, 16:54   #64
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Below is what I wrote on another forum right after the bill passed:

The saddest part of the health bill just passed is not that it will cost Caterpiller so much money it will affect jobs creation. It is not that any one segment will have more or less taxes or that any part of the population will have better or worse health care.
It is that this sad excuse for a health care bill will become entrenched.
Oh, we had to start somewhere is an argument we hear. It is better than nothing is an argument we hear. Both are sad excuses for not having been able to do better. Both will be long forgotten down the road when someone lists the steps taken to the ruination of American health care.
The first step taken should have been fixing the items wrong with the current system. Or at least they should have been the foundation of this bill. Instead the administration decided they wanted their legacy to include a national health care bill. I suspect the passage of this bandaid-do little approach will be listed as the biggest, most long lasting failure of the administration.
Where is the protection for medical practitioners from frivolous lawsuits?
Where is the fix for medical payments for Medicaid, Medicare, and Tricare? Either the government is putting the screws to doctors for treating patients under these programs or medical care is so overpriced for everybody else that doctors don’t want to waste their time with these patients. Either way it has to be fixed for any system to succeed.
Where are the laws with meat to severely punish doctors who scam the system? Where is the push for the feds and state governments to quit allowing insurance companies to disappear when they are facing actually honoring their policies?
Where are the reforms for the cost of prescription medicine?
Where is the specific program to provide medical care in a cheaper manner than sniffles and splinters in the emergency rooms?
We needed preexisting conditions covered. But how can you hope to make that affordable for the country unless everybody is paying for some coverage all along. The bogeyman of people getting insurance the day after they discover their expensive disease sounds pretty certain. So if we need a single payer, must have coverage system how did we arrive at a system that keeps so much the same?
So what politician did you hear speaking up for a system that protects all Americans. Each of them did their job of protecting their constituents (funny how that also keeps their asses in their fat cat seats) but I did not or hear of anybody standing up and demanding a system that will protect the most people for the longest time.
So we are letting/demanding that our federal government take over every function of our lives. At the same time no local government can afford to come up with a solution based on what their part of the country wants.
So we have a health care bill and BO has something he thinks he can hang his legacy on. And future attempts to make our system work better will be based on this bill. A bill stacked on top of such a weak foundation it cannot hope to improve health care in the long run. Maybe the strategy all along was to pass such a bad bill that the whole system will collapse so it can be built right. All I am sure of is that a bad bill is not better than no bill at all. And that as long as we accept bad legislation in lieu of actually fixing national issues the less hope we have of actually improving anything.
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Old 01-30-2013, 16:54   #65
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Old 01-30-2013, 19:34   #66
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Shinytop, just read your post. Not bad at all.

On a tangential topic, if you live in a big city, you've probably heard or seen ads saying something along the lines of no more ER waiting. You call a number to make an appointment. In the cities that I know of it's the private hospitals doing this.
Call the number to schedule an appointment and they'll ask for a credit card for a token payment to hold your time slot. The net affect of this is to siphon the more financially stable patients to their hospitals, leaving the rest of the patients to go to the city county hospitals.
City/county hospitals is something noticeably absent in the discussion. They are supported through taxes, and often will affiliate with a medical school so they can get residents to do the work of board certified doctors for cheap. They also often will get federal funds to become "Trauma Centers." Since the majority of trauma patients are indigent, and as a whole trauma patients have more poor outcomes, there are fewer trauma centers every year.
I have tried to avoid working for private hospitals because the patients in city/county hospitals are usually much more grateful for care. As one co-worker put it "we're here to save your ass, not kiss it."
Don't know if any of this is new or useful to you, just felt like sharing. Paul
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Old 01-30-2013, 20:19   #67
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OK. Lets go all out for profit. Police, fire, prisons, military, show a profit!

C'mon guys, lighten up. It's you and your loved ones who I want to get the best healthcare. I'm not the one deciding how. Just an advocate for improvement.

Please don't put words in my mouth, either. I can't afford a dentist right now.
You get the best healthcare by paying doctors enough that the best people compete for the spots in medical school and the lesser people go teach biology somewhere. Socializing healthcare gets you exactly the opposite of the best. There is no logical argument to the contrary. It won't increase the quanity or quality of medical professionals so, at best, you can argue that at least the lower quality care won't be as expensive.
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Old 01-30-2013, 21:29   #68
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Smokers will pay 50% more in premiums.
Add pot smoking into that and you'll see public support for Pelosicare drop dramatically.

This does point out the problem with left wing bureaucrats running this thing. What if you drink soda? What if you're not a vegetarian? What if you follow a low carb diet instead of a government-approved low fat diet? What if you own firearms?
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Old 01-30-2013, 21:50   #69
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Obamacare's main failing is it does absolutely nothing to control costs. Providers are free to rape and pillage your wallet, at will, and a third party keeps the sticker shock from causing you to object to the larceny.

Anyone who mentions "free market" misses the point that you must have an informed buyer and a seller constrained by competitive forces. (Who is going to price shop when they are having chest pains?)

Most "consumers" have no idea what they are "buying", why they need it, and with insurance "paying for it" could care less about the actual cost.

How much would a new car cost if you walked into the dealership under these parameters?
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Old 01-31-2013, 02:44   #70
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Nice try. The entities you cite are government. Medical is private sector. Changing the subject is the first sign youre losing the argument.
Medical is private sector? So wrong. All the Medicare and Medicaid dollars people complain about go to healthcare. Any hospital (almost all) that accepts that money is heavily regulated by the federal government. Read the notices on the walls as you enter the ER telling you what the hospitals' obligation to you is as far as a "screening exam" and "privacy." Privately owned hospitals here often turn people away for financial reasons. Take your broken arm and catch the cross town bus to the county hospital.

I'm not arguing, forgive me if I come across that way. I'm passionate about wanting the sick and injured to get the best care. I'm trying, as a former healthcare provider, to educate people about the healthcare system. A system called "healthcare" shouldn't, IMHO, put $ ahead of healthcare.
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:33   #71
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Medical is private sector? So wrong. All the Medicare and Medicaid dollars people complain about go to healthcare. Any hospital (almost all) that accepts that money is heavily regulated by the federal government. Read the notices on the walls as you enter the ER telling you what the hospitals' obligation to you is as far as a "screening exam" and "privacy." Privately owned hospitals here often turn people away for financial reasons. Take your broken arm and catch the cross town bus to the county hospital.

I'm not arguing, forgive me if I come across that way. I'm passionate about wanting the sick and injured to get the best care. I'm trying, as a former healthcare provider, to educate people about the healthcare system. A system called "healthcare" shouldn't, IMHO, put $ ahead of healthcare.
Any entity that is suppose to stay in the black has to put $$$ ahead of other things.

The federal gov needs to take it over completely or get the hell out of it and stop skewing the prices like they did/are doing with education and housing.
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:01   #72
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How about this? YOU pay for your own care. No government involvement. Go to a "third world" country. If you don't have the money, you're not getting care. That includes little babies. I've seen it. Can't save everybody. Everyone dies eventually anyway. That's life.
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:08   #73
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Are you some kind of Texas transplant or what?
Thanks for the attempt at an insult, but no, I'm a multi-generational Texas.

Three pages so far with this thread and my original post has proven correct.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:16   #74
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Thanks for the attempt at an insult, but no, I'm a multi-generational Texas.

Three pages so far with this thread and my original post has proven correct.
Haha I was just telling my dad the other day that some parts of Texas can be deceivingly liberal.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:17   #75
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Thanks for the attempt at an insult, but no, I'm a multi-generational Texas.

Three pages so far with this thread and my original post has proven correct.
Haha I was just telling my dad the other day that some parts of Texas can be deceivingly liberal.
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