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Old 01-30-2013, 10:14   #26
WarCry
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Originally Posted by arclight610 View Post
So, because I don't smoke and I'm not obese I should have to pay for someone that does/is?
Do you think that you DON'T?

If this plan wasn't in place, and you decided not to carry health insurance, you'd still be paying through tax dollars.

If this plan hadn't passed and you had insurance through your employer or self-purchased, you would STILL be paying - through higher premiums - for people that smoke, are obese, etc. You would ALSO being paying for people that have absolutely no insurance and go to the emergency room every time they don't feel well.

The intent of this bill is to reduce that last number, reduce the number of people that have no insurance, and help spread that cost out over a broader base.

So, you ask if you should have to pay for those people. I say again, why do you think you're NOT paying for them already?
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:16   #27
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Originally Posted by Paul53 View Post
Obamacare encourages individual responsibility for getting health insurance. It encourages employers to provide insurance. It provides assistance for low income or large family groups.

Traditionally, the healthiest among us could get by without health insurance. That makes those who do have insurance pay higher rates because they tend to be the less healthy. By dividing the insurance among all, healthy and non healthy groups, the cost per person comes down.

We currently have a for profit system, and without insurance, you'll get inferior care. The almighty dollar is so powerful that I've personally seen people crippled or die for lack of insurance.

People are afraid of change, but trust a career nurse, our healthcare system is too expensive and provides inferior care.

Now I'll get flamed a bunch. Honestly? I'm just here for the abuse!

Please explain how forcing someone to buy something they do not need nor want and therefore forcing them to subsidize someone else's higher costs encourages individual responsibility.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:19   #28
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
Do you think that you DON'T?

If this plan wasn't in place, and you decided not to carry health insurance, you'd still be paying through tax dollars.

If this plan hadn't passed and you had insurance through your employer or self-purchased, you would STILL be paying - through higher premiums - for people that smoke, are obese, etc. You would ALSO being paying for people that have absolutely no insurance and go to the emergency room every time they don't feel well.

The intent of this bill is to reduce that last number, reduce the number of people that have no insurance, and help spread that cost out over a broader base.

So, you ask if you should have to pay for those people. I say again, why do you think you're NOT paying for them already?
How is that possible? You state everyone that pays taxes and/or health insurance already pays for the uninsured.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:24   #29
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How is that possible? You state everyone that pays taxes and/or health insurance already pays for the uninsured.
If you and I go out for dinner and the total bill is $40, that's $20 each.

If you and I and two others go out for dinner and the total is $40, that's $10 each.

What this bill does is bring more people to the table to lower the per-person weight of those costs.

I can't explain it any simpler than that. If you don't understand that, then you're on your own, because that's something my 10 year old would understand.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:30   #30
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
If you and I go out for dinner and the total bill is $40, that's $20 each.

If you and I and two others go out for dinner and the total is $40, that's $10 each.

What this bill does is bring more people to the table to lower the per-person weight of those costs.

I can't explain it any simpler than that. If you don't understand that, then you're on your own, because that's something my 10 year old would understand.

I have no doubt your 10 year old understands socialism. If you and I go out to dinner, I'm paying for what I ordered, not half of the bill. It could be 10, 20, or 30.

You need to learn the concept of analogies. The proper analogy would be if you and I went out to dinner and were forced to pay for someone else's dinner that was at the table next to us and we had to order what they told us to order and we had no choice in ordering or paying.


Again, your words, scenarios, and leanings betray you.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:33   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
If you and I go out for dinner and the total bill is $40, that's $20 each.

If you and I and two others go out for dinner and the total is $40, that's $10 each.

What this bill does is bring more people to the table to lower the per-person weight of those costs.

I can't explain it any simpler than that. If you don't understand that, then you're on your own, because that's something my 10 year old would understand.
Or "if you and I and two others go out to dinner the total is $80, that's $20 each" because each of you four wanted to eat just as much apiece as you did at the dinner when there was only two of you. You don't get as full when you split the same meal between 4 people as you did when you split the same meal between two. You're analogy is not a good one.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:52   #32
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So 2 people get to eat nothing and starve and still pay $10!! Woot! Sounds like a wonderful plan to me.

Last edited by Hawkeye16; 01-30-2013 at 10:57..
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:04   #33
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It was intended to be an incredibly over-simplified example so that even the lowest common denominator could understand it. I guess that was still aiming too high.

What's being shown to me here is that people understand how insurance works just about as well as Diane Feinstein understands what an assault weapon is. I'll leave it to others to argue the points if they care to try, because when you try to inform someone who refuses to be informed, it's just a dead end.

Much like debating with an anti-gunner who just won't listen to facts and reason, too many people are responding with emotion and rhetoric. Y'all have fun with that.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:09   #34
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You can put out justifications for this as much as you want but it doesn't change the fact that Obamacare is the federal government taxing you for existing.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:34   #35
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Originally Posted by Paul53 View Post
Obamacare encourages individual responsibility for getting health insurance. It encourages employers to provide insurance. It provides assistance for low income or large family groups.

Traditionally, the healthiest among us could get by without health insurance. That makes those who do have insurance pay higher rates because they tend to be the less healthy. By dividing the insurance among all, healthy and non healthy groups, the cost per person comes down.

We currently have a for profit system, and without insurance, you'll get inferior care. The almighty dollar is so powerful that I've personally seen people crippled or die for lack of insurance.

People are afraid of change, but trust a career nurse, our healthcare system is too expensive and provides inferior care.

Now I'll get flamed a bunch. Honestly? I'm just here for the abuse!
I don't think the cost came down for the healthy who weren't buying health insurance before.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:44   #36
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
It was intended to be an incredibly over-simplified example so that even the lowest common denominator could understand it. I guess that was still aiming too high.

What's being shown to me here is that people understand how insurance works just about as well as Diane Feinstein understands what an assault weapon is. I'll leave it to others to argue the points if they care to try, because when you try to inform someone who refuses to be informed, it's just a dead end.

Much like debating with an anti-gunner who just won't listen to facts and reason, too many people are responding with emotion and rhetoric. Y'all have fun with that.
Great. You are finally admitting you are an anti-gunner that does not and will not listen to facts and reason. Finally you and I agree on something.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:47   #37
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Originally Posted by Paul53 View Post
Obamacare encourages individual responsibility for getting health insurance. It encourages employers to provide insurance. It provides assistance for low income or large family groups.

Traditionally, the healthiest among us could get by without health insurance. That makes those who do have insurance pay higher rates because they tend to be the less healthy. By dividing the insurance among all, healthy and non healthy groups, the cost per person comes down.
It is just another scam like Social Security.

Listen up healthy young people. You are now forced to pay for medical treatment for those aging (read sickly) baby boomers and young unhealthy “high risk behavior” underprivileged.

But just like with SS when you are old and need medical treatment, the system will have collapsed, rationed and you will be “Pathwayed” (euthanized).

We are tired of failed collectivism.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:49   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul53 View Post
Obamacare encourages individual responsibility for getting health insurance. It encourages employers to provide insurance. It provides assistance for low income or large family groups.

Traditionally, the healthiest among us could get by without health insurance. That makes those who do have insurance pay higher rates because they tend to be the less healthy. By dividing the insurance among all, healthy and non healthy groups, the cost per person comes down.

We currently have a for profit system, and without insurance, you'll get inferior care. The almighty dollar is so powerful that I've personally seen people crippled or die for lack of insurance.

People are afraid of change, but trust a career nurse, our healthcare system is too expensive and provides inferior care.

Now I'll get flamed a bunch. Honestly? I'm just here for the abuse!

Funny how some substitute the word "encourage" for "taxes"

Just like FDR insisting that the money you pay for Social Security is a "contribution", not a tax.

Taking out the profit margin in a health care system will get everybody free aspirin. The high end medical will be govt rationed (best to make political buddies now) and new cures will not be developed. The "old" expensive and inferior care system drew people from all over the world looking for help when put on long waiting lists in their socialist medicine home countries.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:51   #39
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You can put out justifications for this as much as you want but it doesn't change the fact that Obamacare is the federal government taxing you for existing.
It is hard to believe in America this is true, but it is.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:56   #40
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The very few liberals in this thread arguing in favor of Obama are just embarrassing themselves. I am 25 years old and In perfect health. I am self employed and do not have health insurance nor do I want it. Now I am being forced to have something I do not want or pay a penalty. Does this not sound like a socialist government? "If you think health care is expensive now, wait until its free!" P.J. O'Rourke. Obama is evil.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:57   #41
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
If you and I go out for dinner and the total bill is $40, that's $20 each.

If you and I and two others go out for dinner and the total is $40, that's $10 each.

What this bill does is bring more people to the table to lower the per-person weight of those costs.

I can't explain it any simpler than that. If you don't understand that, then you're on your own, because that's something my 10 year old would understand.
Didja ever notice that when you split the bill evenly, you get the hot dog and they get the prime rib?

Why can’t we all just pay our own way in the world?
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:05   #42
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Originally Posted by Flying-Dutchman View Post
Didja ever notice that when you split the bill evenly, you get the hot dog and they get the prime rib?

Why can’t we all just pay our own way in the world?
Because that's not "fair".
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:11   #43
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Originally Posted by Paul53 View Post
Obamacare encourages individual responsibility for getting health insurance. It encourages employers to provide insurance. It provides assistance for low income or large family groups.

Traditionally, the healthiest among us could get by without health insurance. That makes those who do have insurance pay higher rates because they tend to be the less healthy. By dividing the insurance among all, healthy and non healthy groups, the cost per person comes down.

We currently have a for profit system, and without insurance, you'll get inferior care. The almighty dollar is so powerful that I've personally seen people crippled or die for lack of insurance.

People are afraid of change, but trust a career nurse, our healthcare system is too expensive and provides inferior care.

Now I'll get flamed a bunch. Honestly? I'm just here for the abuse!
So it is to suck money out of the healthy? At least you are honest.

I also wondering if Ocare was intended to suck money out of the growing number of people who would rather go overseas instead of paying exorbitant US prices. I also think it is to suck money out of health insurance cash cows, young healthy men.

From what I read cost will only go down for those old enough to join Aarp and for those who are the extremely ill outliers. Of course, the solution to the skyrocketing prices will be euthanizing the elderly.

If the cost is the problem the answer is simple-drop the prices. If you charge Bcbs $ x for bloodwork, give the uninsured that rate not $10x. Problem solved. Most docs in the Us have no reason to control prices like say those in Mexico, Costa Rica, Thailand who are trying to be globally competitive for gringo money.

Last edited by somebodybuymeaglock; 01-30-2013 at 12:15..
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:29   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul53 View Post
Obamacare encourages individual responsibility for getting health insurance. It encourages employers to provide insurance. It provides assistance for low income or large family groups.

Traditionally, the healthiest among us could get by without health insurance. That makes those who do have insurance pay higher rates because they tend to be the less healthy. By dividing the insurance among all, healthy and non healthy groups, the cost per person comes down.

We currently have a for profit system, and without insurance, you'll get inferior care. The almighty dollar is so powerful that I've personally seen people crippled or die for lack of insurance.

People are afraid of change, but trust a career nurse, our healthcare system is too expensive and provides inferior care.

Now I'll get flamed a bunch. Honestly? I'm just here for the abuse!

It doesnt encourage anything. It mandates all, at gunpoint. Force of law via the IRS. So far it has done nothing but raise costs. Almost everyrhing on this bill of goods as stated is a lie. Utopian fantasy. Its not about healthcare but control.
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:30   #45
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Originally Posted by Flying-Dutchman View Post
It is just another scam like Social Security.

Listen up healthy young people. You are now forced to pay for medical treatment for those aging (read sickly) baby boomers and young unhealthy “high risk behavior” underprivileged.

But just like with SS when you are old and need medical treatment, the system will have collapsed, rationed and you will be “Pathwayed” (euthanized).

We are tired of failed collectivism.
Baby boomers are also the most obese. How fair is that?
I think if boomers are so rich and so great, they should pay for their own care.
This is nothing but highly regressive taxation that solves nothing.

Last edited by somebodybuymeaglock; 01-30-2013 at 12:33..
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:52   #46
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Originally Posted by arclight610 View Post
So, because I don't smoke and I'm not obese I should have to pay for someone that does/is?
So because you don't smoke and aren't obese, do you think you'll never need healthcare?

I'll have to look up the exact statistic, but over 90% of what you'll spend for healthcare in your entire life will be in your last 2 weeks alive. Should you only have to pay for insurance during those 2 weeks?
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:59   #47
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Originally Posted by G29Reload View Post
It doesnt encourage anything. It mandates all, at gunpoint. Force of law via the IRS. So far it has done nothing but raise costs. Almost everyrhing on this bill of goods as stated is a lie. Utopian fantasy. Its not about healthcare but control.
"at gunpoint." Then we should all be happy with it! Couldn't resist. Sorry. Not trying to become a troll here. Spent my career seeing the sins of for profit healthcare. I think all patients deserve better. I'm a RN. The nurses job one is "patient advocate." I want the system to be about caring for the sick and injured, not making a profit. Romneycare, Obamacare, or Paul53care! Whatever it takes, we can do better.
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Old 01-30-2013, 13:11   #48
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Per capita lifetime healthcare costs over $300,000. The cost goes up as people age, and for females it's a third higher.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1361028/

Anybody here getting younger? Want to opt out of insurance now and pay cash out of pocket or go without later?

I want all Americans to have the best possible care for the most fair individual price. I have no other dog in this fight.
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Old 01-30-2013, 13:23   #49
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Smokers will pay 50% more in premiums. That's still not enough. It costs the government RIGHT NOW up to $920 per month for each married government employee and retired government worker who's married. Costs even more for a couple on Medicare. So only if you get healthy younger people in the system will costs go down.

The question is, will enough come in to lower the government's cost? After all, Medicare costs only about $210 or so for a married couple. I vote no. So the middle class will be paying more because the poor will get it subsidized or for free.

And just wait until they tax the VALUE of your employer-provided health insurance. I think i can guarantee you that is going to happen.

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Old 01-30-2013, 13:28   #50
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Oh boy, here comes the stampede of the "Obama is evil" crowd.
IS HE NOT?
Please explain....
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