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Old 04-18-2013, 13:19   #41
fredj338
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Originally Posted by vandros View Post
Interesting... So, am I gaining anything if I load a bullet designed for 1000 fps to go at 1500 fps? Am I at least getting bigger energy dump, even if bullet itself falls apart? Many hot 10mm cartridges (1600 fps or greater velocity) use bullets that were designed for much slower .40 cal.
Energy dump is kind of a myth. If the bullet fails, the energy is used up in destroying the bullet. So in order for any energy to work for you, the bullet has to stay together. The opp would be a FMJ penetrating completely, little energy deposited to the target.
The 10mm is a about equal to the 357mag, maybe a bit better with sim bbl lengths. The 10mm is not, never will be a 41mag, regardless of how much you over load it IMO.
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Old 04-18-2013, 13:24   #42
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Originally Posted by Omologato View Post
In terms of reloading, unless I have a magazine loaded and ready to go, I'm SoL compared to a revolver, speed loader handy or not. I know my father, a 25 year lawman can drop a spead load in his python faster than most of his coworkers could get their autos reloaded and ready to fire.
Reloading advantages are a moot point unless you're in a very long and drawn out situation.
Other than that, he has his .357 Mag Python, I have my G20., both running Underwood now.

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Plus the original post wasn't asking how either did on bad guys, or whether there were multiple bad guys. He was just comparing the 2 calibers.
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Old 04-18-2013, 13:35   #43
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Personally I chose .357 magnum over 10mm. I had a Glock 20, but sold it. I have a Ruger GP100, 4", .357 magnum though.

10mm is much more difficult to locate than .38spl or .357 magnum. More expensive, too. That's the primary reason I chose the way I do.
Understood, another score for .357 Mag.

Last edited by OldSchool64; 04-18-2013 at 13:36..
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Old 04-18-2013, 15:11   #44
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Comparing the two in practical terms.

Bullet weights are similar, with the 10mm going about 20 grains higher at the maximum weight. Neither is it practical to use the highest weight for defense, though they have hunting applications.

The 10mm has a wider diameter which will leave a larger wound cavity, while the .357 has a higher sectional density for superior penetration.

They are capable of producing similar velocities within their safe pressure ranges. Both have a lot of potential for hand loading.

They're both about the most powerful civilian defense rounds that are practical to carry in their respective platforms.

Historically they were designed for different purposes. The 10mm was designed to punch through a lot of flesh in the event a hit was made in less than optimal location, in order to better guarantee an incapacitation. While the .357mag does that quite well also, its original purpose was to be a hard target penetrator that could punch through heavy steel cars of the era. This the .357mag's higher sectional density, paired with increased velocity gets the job done. When it comes to bone it works just as well.

In all practical terms, you're in a good position behind either one of them. Now let's talk about what you'll actually find in either one. Most factory 10mm rounds aren't loaded anywhere near their full potential. They're basically longer .40S&W rounds, and will perform similarly. .357mag factory rounds however often cater to those attracted by the "magnum" name, and come much closer to true magnum performance. Though I'll be fair and say that factory rounds still aren't sold as close to full power as they could be, aside from a few brands.

If you're not doing experimental, pushing the envelope handloads, you're looking at negligible differences. Nothing from the factory in 10mm is going to reproduce a .41 magnum, and even handloads are only going to scrape the bottom of low recoil .41mag loads. It's just not a .41 magnum and never will be. What 10mm is is a very effective defensive caliber as long as you make sure you're not buying from a manufacturer that's skimping on the powder charge.

Now it comes down to platform. Semi vs. Revolver. Semi will give you more rounds but can be picky about recoil and will need a specific range to properly operate the mechanism. The revolver will eat and spit out whatever you can feed it. The semi can give you up to 15 rounds, while the revolver maxes out at 8, and more practically 6. Both can be reloaded quickly by someone who knows what they're doing, while someone untrained will fumble with either. A revolver (not including some bargain basement brands. *cough*taurus*cough) generally malfunctions less. No stovepipes, failures to feed, failures to eject, and if you get a dud, all you need do is pull the trigger again. The semi on the other hand is easier to work on if something does go wrong. Neither will run well if abused, or poorly made in the first place. In the end revolver vs semi is personal preference, and I think that's where the line between .357 magnum fans and 10mm fans are drawn. Not so much the round its self, as what fires it. Of course there are 10mm revolvers, and one .357mag semi.

Either is a decent price of admission to laugh at 9mm vs .45 debates.
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Old 04-18-2013, 20:49   #45
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...While the .357mag does that quite well also, its original purpose was to be a hard target penetrator that could punch through heavy steel cars of the era...

Actually, it was designed as a hunting round. Major Wesson took all sorts of large game with his 8" Registered Magnum before marketing it. LE had already turned to the .38 Super for auto body penetration by then.
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Old 04-18-2013, 21:11   #46
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Energy dump is kind of a myth. If the bullet fails, the energy is used up in destroying the bullet. So in order for any energy to work for you, the bullet has to stay together...
The energy is "in the bullet" so wouldn't it be more correct to say that energy is released at the point of bullet failure?
I mean fragmenting bullets work quite well as long as they come apart at the proper penetration depth.
Agree or not??

Last edited by OldSchool64; 04-18-2013 at 21:32..
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Old 04-18-2013, 21:32   #47
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Originally Posted by OldSchool64 View Post
The energy is "in the bullet" so wouldn't it be more correct to say that energy is released at the point of bullet failure?
I mean fragmenting bullets work quite well as long as they come apart at the proper penetration depth.
Agree or not??
I don't agree.

If I read what Fred is saying it is the same point I've made in other places.

It takes energy to deform and fragment a bullet. Where does that energy come from? It doesn't come from the target, the bullet brings that energy with it. Therefore the energy it takes to fragment the lead and copper has to be subtracted from the energy it arrived with.
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Old 04-18-2013, 21:39   #48
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I don't agree...the bullet brings that energy with it. Therefore the energy it takes to fragment the lead and copper has to be subtracted from the energy it arrived with.
Yes, but where does that energy go? It goes, or is released, into the target.

Last edited by OldSchool64; 04-18-2013 at 21:44..
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Old 04-18-2013, 21:44   #49
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Originally Posted by OldSchool64 View Post
Yes, but where does that energy go? It goes, or is released, into the target.
Yeah?

Why is it that, in baseball, when the bat breaks, the ball basically never goes very far or very fast?

That breakup requires/uses energy.
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Old 04-18-2013, 21:46   #50
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Energy dump is kind of a myth. If the bullet fails, the energy is used up in destroying the bullet. So in order for any energy to work for you, the bullet has to stay together. The opp would be a FMJ penetrating completely, little energy deposited to the target.
The 10mm is a about equal to the 357mag, maybe a bit better with sim bbl lengths. The 10mm is not, never will be a 41mag, regardless of how much you over load it IMO.

While I have no first hand experience with the concept of energy dump on the target, the Law of Conservation of Energy would state the energy used up destroying the bullet is transferred to the what it is breaking up in. Can't get around physics. A bullet traveling faster than design won't penetrate fully but suspect it would cause a very painful wound. Isn't this the concept behind the original 5.56 loads??

10mm and 357 are close enough in performance it really comes down to your preference in revolvers vs pistols. Owning both I find the 357 easier to reload for; if it fits in the cylinder it works. Unfortunately for me I find I use a lot more 10mm ammo up when on a range - hard to not load 10 or more at a time and they go fast.......
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Old 04-18-2013, 21:47   #51
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Now I need a drink!!

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Old 04-18-2013, 21:52   #52
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Originally Posted by copo9560 View Post
A bullet traveling faster than design won't penetrate fully but suspect it would cause a very painful wound. Isn't this the concept behind the original 5.56 loads??
The bullet being unstable in tissue and yawing/tumbling, thus breaking up, creating multiple would channels, and limiting penetration, is the idea behind the ball ammo in 5.56.

One major difference here, obviously, is that as a rifle roudn 5.56 has adequate energy to go around. Handgun rounds, not so much. Even 5.56 has more than double the energy of the hottest 10mm or .357 mag out of a handgun.
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Old 04-18-2013, 21:58   #53
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Ok, now we're getting off topic. Maybe someone should start a new thread on "energy transfer". Like that hasn't been done already.
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Old 04-18-2013, 23:31   #54
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Generally speaking, the .357 magnum has cooler lookin' boolits.

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Old 04-18-2013, 23:49   #55
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The energy is "in the bullet" so wouldn't it be more correct to say that energy is released at the point of bullet failure?
I mean fragmenting bullets work quite well as long as they come apart at the proper penetration depth.
Agree or not??
And that is the issue. IF the bullet never reaches vitals, it's a spectacular failure leaving an ugly surface wound. So energy alone is a terrible measure of a rounds ability to stop a threat. The bullet must reach vitals regardless of caliber.
A 130gr/270 @ 3000fps puts out a huge amount of energy, over 2600ft# @ the muzzle. A buddy of mine shot a big bull elk & found a 130gr/270 smashed & stuck in the shoulder blade of the elk. So not only did the 2600Ft# not kill said elk, it got away to be killed years later by him & his 338-06. So the bullet must reach vitals regardless of any book numbers.
A 180gr/10mm is slightly inferior in penetration to a 158gr/357, assuming bullet construction is identical. In a 4" 10mm, 1250fps, in a 4" 357mag, 1250fps. The advantage of more rounds goes to the 10mm in a pistol, but that is about it. Accuracy edge probably to the 357mag out @ hunting distance of 50yds+.
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Old 04-19-2013, 01:20   #56
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Fred, what sayeth you about the .257 Ferguson Hot Tamale? It seems to have broken some new ground, albeit with all copper bullets:


http://www.buckmasters.com/battlin-bullets.aspx
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Old 04-19-2013, 05:13   #57
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Interesting... So, am I gaining anything if I load a bullet designed for 1000 fps to go at 1500 fps? Am I at least getting bigger energy dump, even if bullet itself falls apart? Many hot 10mm cartridges (1600 fps or greater velocity) use bullets that were designed for much slower .40 cal.
Well yes. But then again, no!

Much as I approve of almost everything fredj338 says, I disagree with him about "energy dump" being a myth. What it was was a half baked idea with an element of truth. Energy can be defined as that which does work. To understand this you have to accept that some or much of the "work" is effectively wasted. So if the bullet breaks up it takes approximately as much energy to do so as if you had broken it up with a hammer and chisel. For all practical concerns, energy is never lost but only changed and all work involves degradation of energy to a lower form - heat in particular. So the broken bits of bullet will be hotter than the equivalent non breaking up bullet. That heat energy does you no good in terms of disabling your opponent and so it is wasted.

What does happen is that a bullet which breaks up has pieces with lower sectional density than the original. The result is that they slow down faster. That means that they penetrate less, which can be a bad thing, but give up their energy to the surrounding tissue in a shorter distance. This can be a good thing or a bad thing. Giving up more energy in a shorter distance does significant work against a wider volume of tissue around the principle bullet track. What you need is for that wider damage to be at a useful depth.

In general, if you test your rounds in gel (the stuff does have its uses) and you are getting 12 or more inches in penetration you can be reasonably certain that your maximum width of significant tissue damage is at a useful depth for most civilian anti personnel use. If your bullet goes through an arm first you would have needed more penetration but you would have disabled the arm and that is usually a good thing. The extreme of this is the very high speed, very light, varmint rifle bullet fired at a moose. The result will be a shallow crater in the moose will no more penetration. The moose will not drop when hit or after some time.

Most people believe that it is better for a bullet to stay in one piece and I tend to agree with them. Hollow point bullet designers design and develop their bullets to function properly within a velocity window. Below that velocity the bullet will fail to expand or expand enough. Above it, it might break up or have its petals forced back along its sides and make its effective diameter less than intended. Cartridge designers try to select bullets to match the intended velocity of their cartridge - higher velocities need tougher bullets.

The problem here is that bullets are economic to produce only in very large runs and volumes. The result is that many bullets used in 10mm and 357SIG cartridges are really .40S&W or 9mm bullets by design. As someone else has pointed out, in many major brand 10mm cartridges this hardly matters as they are loaded far below their proper level. Since the 357SIG needs a different shape of bullet than the 9mm, this problem has been addressed more for 357SIGs which now have their own bullet designs. .357 Mags have a long enough history in hunting and SD for this not to be a problem and it is one area in which the .357 Mag might have an advantage over the 10mm.

By the way, the 10mm might edge into 41 Mag territory but cannot compete overall for the same reason that the .40S&W cannot compete with the 10mm - it does not have enough case capacity.

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Old 04-19-2013, 09:43   #58
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357 mag. 158 @ 1400
10mm 165 @ 1400

For hunting, I'd choose 357.
For SD, I'd choose 10mm.

Based on sectional density, bullet diameter and common launching platforms of each. That would be with those weight bullets. A 10mm with 180-200's in thick brush and closer shots would be my choice for hog, that or 44mag. I personally have a 6.5" 610 so even for longer shots, 10mm is viable. No doubt longer barreled revolvers are mechanically more accurate than Glocks or even most 1911's I know of.
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:19   #59
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Yeah?

Why is it that, in baseball, when the bat breaks, the ball basically never goes very far or very fast?

That breakup requires/uses energy.
yeah, but the bat broke. :D

If the ball is the bullet and the bat is your body, and the bat breaks, ......


If a bullet fragments, it takes energy, but something has to oppose it for it to happen, and that opposition comes in the form of tissue, and the more violent the fragmentation, the more damage to the tissue.

Even not fragmenting, but just deforming, a bullet takes an equal and opposite reaction from the flesh/tissue in order for the lead to deform (Newtons Law). The equal and opposite reaction from the tissue is what leads to the damage.
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Old 04-19-2013, 13:15   #60
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yeah, but the bat broke. :D

If the ball is the bullet and the bat is your body, and the bat breaks, ......


If a bullet fragments, it takes energy, but something has to oppose it for it to happen, and that opposition comes in the form of tissue, and the more violent the fragmentation, the more damage to the tissue.

Even not fragmenting, but just deforming, a bullet takes an equal and opposite reaction from the flesh/tissue in order for the lead to deform (Newtons Law). The equal and opposite reaction from the tissue is what leads to the damage.
Again, unless the bullet reaches vitals, the energy means little to nothing. A 90gr JHP can be driven to 1400fps easily in a 9mm & give impressive energy, but if the bullet breaks upon heavy bone or a jacket zipper & fails to reach vitals, the energy is pointless. The 90-100gr JHP/JSP were quite the rage when the 9mm was adopted by LEA across the country. You would be hard pressed to find any dept today still using them. There have been dozens of reports of people getting up & fighting after taking massive amounts of energy from 12ga & rifle rounds.
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