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Old 01-27-2013, 16:32   #26
Warp
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Personally I chose .357 magnum over 10mm. I had a Glock 20, but sold it. I have a Ruger GP100, 4", .357 magnum though.

10mm is much more difficult to locate than .38spl or .357 magnum. More expensive, too. That's the primary reason I chose the way I do.
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:53   #27
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Originally Posted by vandros View Post
So, this only affects hardcast bullets? Is faster = more penetration with FMJs?
It's pretty much true across the board. Hardcast, FMJ but especially JHP bullets. One of the downfalls with loading bullets warm, no matter the caliber is that when you push them beyond the velocity they're designed for, it's going to negatively affect performance.

A positive example would be 9mm bullets designed for the 9X19 and others designed for the faster velocities of the 357 Sig. Also some .357" JHP bullets are designed for 38 Special velocities or low-end .357 Mag, and then there are .357" JHP bullets designed specifically for full house .357 Magnum speed. Same with 44 Special vs. 44 Magnum and .45 Colt vs. "heavy" .45 Colt/454 Casull.

A negative example would be most all .400" JHP bullets as they're designed for typical .40 S&W velocity. When you load the .40 S&W warm, or the 10mm too, you begin to push bullets beyond what they're designed for and that can limit penetration. Now as you begin to push them faster you may gain penetration and expansion up to a point, but after that is reached, you will begin to lose penetration although expansion may increase or worse, the bullet comes apart. Like I said, some .400" JHP do better than others at higher speeds.

Same is true with loading the .45 Super/460 Rowland with .45 ACP designed JHP's. I've found that some .45 ACP JHP's don't like to be pushed much more than 1200 fps, but others can handle a little more. Some .45 Colt JHP designs can be loaded in the .45 Super/460 Rowland, but sometimes their profile makes them a poor choice for feeding. Although there are some 240-260gr designs that will work, but after that you've got 300 grainers and they're too heavy for either to shoot fast enough.

As for hardcasts, what Tiro Fijo said is right on "Hardcast bullets in a handgun are not as dependent upon velocity to fulfill their mission."
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Old 01-28-2013, 09:03   #28
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It's pretty much true across the board. Hardcast, FMJ but especially JHP bullets. One of the downfalls with loading bullets warm, no matter the caliber is that when you push them beyond the velocity they're designed for, it's going to negatively affect performance.

A positive example would be 9mm bullets designed for the 9X19 and others designed for the faster velocities of the 357 Sig. Also some .357" JHP bullets are designed for 38 Special velocities or low-end .357 Mag, and then there are .357" JHP bullets designed specifically for full house .357 Magnum speed. Same with 44 Special vs. 44 Magnum and .45 Colt vs. "heavy" .45 Colt/454 Casull.

A negative example would be most all .400" JHP bullets as they're designed for typical .40 S&W velocity. When you load the .40 S&W warm, or the 10mm too, you begin to push bullets beyond what they're designed for and that can limit penetration. Now as you begin to push them faster you may gain penetration and expansion up to a point, but after that is reached, you will begin to lose penetration although expansion may increase or worse, the bullet comes apart. Like I said, some .400" JHP do better than others at higher speeds.

Same is true with loading the .45 Super/460 Rowland with .45 ACP designed JHP's. I've found that some .45 ACP JHP's don't like to be pushed much more than 1200 fps, but others can handle a little more. Some .45 Colt JHP designs can be loaded in the .45 Super/460 Rowland, but sometimes their profile makes them a poor choice for feeding. Although there are some 240-260gr designs that will work, but after that you've got 300 grainers and they're too heavy for either to shoot fast enough.

As for hardcasts, what Tiro Fijo said is right on "Hardcast bullets in a handgun are not as dependent upon velocity to fulfill their mission."
Interesting... So, am I gaining anything if I load a bullet designed for 1000 fps to go at 1500 fps? Am I at least getting bigger energy dump, even if bullet itself falls apart? Many hot 10mm cartridges (1600 fps or greater velocity) use bullets that were designed for much slower .40 cal.
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Old 01-28-2013, 09:11   #29
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It's really a 6rds vs 16rds issue more than whether one will do something the other will not.
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:21   #30
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Interesting... So, am I gaining anything if I load a bullet designed for 1000 fps to go at 1500 fps? Am I at least getting bigger energy dump, even if bullet itself falls apart? Many hot 10mm cartridges (1600 fps or greater velocity) use bullets that were designed for much slower .40 cal.
You're gaining energy for sure, and something that is flatter shooting. As long as the bullet is designed to hold up at 1500 fps, you should be fine. Even if driven too fast, that doesn't necessarily mean it flat out won't work, it just means you're likely to see some type of failure, whether it be bullet failure or lower penetration, and some won't see that as a failure per say, but it is an effect.

Take a 135gr JHP for example, even at ~1300 fps it can exhibit fragmentation, push it to 1500 fps and it's going to fragment worse. I'm not really sure there is much point to pushing it much faster than that, other than just to see what happens. I've pushed them over 1800 fps in a .40 but never shot anything with it, although I'm certain it would be explosive on large pesky "rodents".

I think the 155gr and 165gr Gold Dot do pretty well at higher speeds, I think it's the shallow cavity that helps it. I've shot them out of .40's doing 1100-1200 and they do just fine, and even at 1400 fps and they seem to hold together. There is a limit to every design, it's just finding it. The 180gr Gold Dot does pretty well, but the deeper cavity Gold Dots seem to break apart faster than the shallow cavity ones, and a Gold Dot WILL break apart if driven too fast.
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Old 01-28-2013, 10:55   #31
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Originally Posted by vandros View Post
Interesting... So, am I gaining anything if I load a bullet designed for 1000 fps to go at 1500 fps? Am I at least getting bigger energy dump, even if bullet itself falls apart? Many hot 10mm cartridges (1600 fps or greater velocity) use bullets that were designed for much slower .40 cal.
Rifle shooters figured out that pushing a bullet faster than it was designed for was bad mugambo, when are pistol shooters going to get it?


A "bigger energy dump'' may include far less penetration than needed, over pushed bullets tend to expand prematurely

Don't get too impressed about bullets that are used in both .40 and 10mm factory loads. after all, the factory 10mm loads aren't that much hotter than the .40 loads
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Old 01-29-2013, 08:21   #32
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I no longer have a .357 Mag or 10mm, but when I had the 6" GP100 .357, some of the warmer handloads I can remember off the top of my head included a 125gr JHP @ ~1700 fps, a 158gr hardcast at around 1530 fps and a 180gr XTP @ around 1325 fps. Some factory 125gr .357's are fairly warm, the Remington 125gr JHP does almost 1600 fps from a 6" GP100. The .357 loads I used were with book charges, where a number of "warm" 10mm loads aren't.

I prefer larger bullets myself, but the higher sectional density of the .357 bullets will give them the edge in penetration, a 180gr .357 has higher sectional density than a 220gr 10mm, and there are 200gr .357's too. Then there are 16-24" barreled lever action .357's too which take it up to the next level as well, something you don't get with the 10mm.

The 10mm is loaded "lite" but so are most cartridges from the big ammo makers, and I know a 10mm can shoot a 220gr @ close to 1250 fps from a long barrel, I've personally done it, but it's an over pressure load any way you slice it. However, I load that way too in my setup, I'm just saying that often "full power" 10mm is also "over pressure" 10mm. I would say the .357 Mag and 10mm compare favorably to one another, .40 too when you throw in a 6" bbl. I wouldn't put the 10mm in .41 Mag territory myself.
A very thoughtful post. I like the super-hot .357 125gr JHP loading.
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Old 04-17-2013, 23:58   #33
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I believe the original post was about .357 Mag vs. 10mm Auto.

To that end, the 10mm Auto is slightly better than the .357 Mag in that the 10mm pushes a heavier bullet faster. Period.

...also because most 10mm Autos are pistols, where as most .357 Mags are revolvers. Revolvers tend to have a greater felt recoil impulse. This makes for slower follow-up shots.

Pistols tend to have a larger ammunition payload and are much quicker and easier to reload. The difference is exponential. A revolver starts with 5 or 6 and is reloaded with 5 or 6 for a total of 10 to 12. A Glock 20 is loaded with 15 or 16 and is reloaded with 15 for a total of 30 or 31. another reload for each brings the total for the revolver to 15 or 18 while the total for the Glock goes up to 45 or 46. So as I said, the difference is exponential.

Most malfunctions in a pistol are simple to over come, where most malfunctions with a revolver renders it inoperable.

I could go on...

As to the 10mm Auto being an equal to the 41 Magnum. No, it is not. The 10mm Auto is close but not quite on the same level. The real benefit is not in the power of the 41 Mag, but in the ammunition payload of the Glock 20 10mm Auto. It is the same argument as above, 5 or 6 rounds vs. 15 rounds. More is better.



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Old 04-18-2013, 00:17   #34
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I know this is a 10mm vs 357 thread, but the .41 and .44 keep coming up. I load my Readhawk with Hornady's 265 grain bullet designed for the .444 Marlin at rifle velocities. The jacket is thicker in addition to being a heavier bullet than the more common 240. I load 23 grains of WW 296 behind the Hornady. I've taken several black bears and moose with this load in addition to many deer and a few elk. I will also load Hornady's 300 gr XTP, but I jus plain like the 265 better. Nothing walks away from it. Oh, and I don't need 15 to 20 shots.
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Old 04-18-2013, 03:46   #35
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I know this is a 10mm vs 357 thread, but the .41 and .44 keep coming up. I load my Readhawk with Hornady's 265 grain bullet designed for the .444 Marlin at rifle velocities. The jacket is thicker in addition to being a heavier bullet than the more common 240. I load 23 grains of WW 296 behind the Hornady. I've taken several black bears and moose with this load in addition to many deer and a few elk. I will also load Hornady's 300 gr XTP, but I jus plain like the 265 better. Nothing walks away from it. Oh, and I don't need 15 to 20 shots.
That 265 .430 bullet is a GREAT one!!

Another worth a try is Speer 270g Gold Dot (Now called deep curl) SP. Its a tremendous 44 bullet we have been using in 44 pistols and carbines with stellar results! I don't know how good it would do at 3-500 more FPS available with the 444.

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Old 04-18-2013, 09:34   #36
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I have never been a real big fan of the 10mm. I just never had any interest in that caliber. Once at the range I shot a 10mm (about 25 rounds or so), nice caliber, seems very capable but as my son would say "it just doesn't make my hair blow back"!

I have owned and shot .357 magnums for many years so I have quite a history with that caliber. I guess for me it just comes down to personal preference.

I toss my vote in for the .357 magnum... just because.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:03   #37
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Oh, and I don't need 15 to 20 shots.
The thread is about .357 Magnum vs. 10mm Auto for Home Defense and Self Defense. This is not a thread about handgun hunting with the .44 Magnum. And while it is great that you don't need 15 or 20 rounds for hunting with your super awesome pet load in .44 Magnum, we are typing about protection of one's self from stuff like home invasion... where there could be multiple bad guys trying to bum rush your front door and/or back door. Last year, five bad guys rushed a home during a home invasion. Three went in the front and two busted down the back door. I don't know about you, but I don't want to ever be in that type of event, but if I am, I don't want a big heavy revolver when I could have a modern Glock semi-auto.


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Old 04-18-2013, 11:27   #38
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The thread is about .357 Magnum vs. 10mm Auto for Home Defense and Self Defense. This is not a thread about handgun hunting with the .44 Magnum. And while it is great that you don't need 15 or 20 rounds for hunting with your super awesome pet load in .44 Magnum, we are typing about protection of one's self from stuff like home invasion... where there could be multiple bad guys trying to bum rush your front door and/or back door. Last year, five bad guys rushed a home during a home invasion. Three went in the front and two busted down the back door. I don't know about you, but I don't want to ever be in that type of event, but if I am, I don't want a big heavy revolver when I could have a modern Glock semi-auto.


Well if there is only 5 of them.......Game on Redhawk LOL.
Think Mossberg 590 with a speed feed stock and alternate loads of buckshot and goose loads.
But I am not aware of anyone hosing 5 masked intruders in one event, except for Ralpie in Christmas Story with his Red Ryder BB gun when he held off Black Bart and his gang.
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Old 04-18-2013, 12:26   #39
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In terms of reloading, unless I have a magazine loaded and ready to go, I'm SoL compared to a revolver, speed loader handy or not. I know my father, a 25 year lawman can drop a spead load in his python faster than most of his coworkers could get their autos reloaded and ready to fire.
Reloading advantages are a moot point unless you're in a very long and drawn out situation.
Other than that, he has his .357 Mag Python, I have my G20., both running Underwood now.

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Old 04-18-2013, 13:03   #40
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Comparing the .357 magnum to a 10mm is like comparing an El Camino to an F-350 4x4. Sure, they both have four wheels, a pickup bed, and can haul sheets of plywood, but one is capable of much more when used to its full potential. The 10mm can do anything the .357 can do, as well as do SO MUCH more if you want it to. Sure, you can load a 10mm down to .357 magnum performance levels, but you can also load it up to .41 magnum performance and be within SAAMI spec, or you can go a little "over book" and be solidly into .44 magnum territory. Set up with a fully supported chamber and loaded properly, a 10mm can chuck 200gr hardcast lead at 1400-1450 fps without getting pressure signs. You CAN'T do that with a .357.
+1 on that.
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Old 04-18-2013, 13:19   #41
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Interesting... So, am I gaining anything if I load a bullet designed for 1000 fps to go at 1500 fps? Am I at least getting bigger energy dump, even if bullet itself falls apart? Many hot 10mm cartridges (1600 fps or greater velocity) use bullets that were designed for much slower .40 cal.
Energy dump is kind of a myth. If the bullet fails, the energy is used up in destroying the bullet. So in order for any energy to work for you, the bullet has to stay together. The opp would be a FMJ penetrating completely, little energy deposited to the target.
The 10mm is a about equal to the 357mag, maybe a bit better with sim bbl lengths. The 10mm is not, never will be a 41mag, regardless of how much you over load it IMO.
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Old 04-18-2013, 13:24   #42
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In terms of reloading, unless I have a magazine loaded and ready to go, I'm SoL compared to a revolver, speed loader handy or not. I know my father, a 25 year lawman can drop a spead load in his python faster than most of his coworkers could get their autos reloaded and ready to fire.
Reloading advantages are a moot point unless you're in a very long and drawn out situation.
Other than that, he has his .357 Mag Python, I have my G20., both running Underwood now.

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Plus the original post wasn't asking how either did on bad guys, or whether there were multiple bad guys. He was just comparing the 2 calibers.
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Old 04-18-2013, 13:35   #43
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Personally I chose .357 magnum over 10mm. I had a Glock 20, but sold it. I have a Ruger GP100, 4", .357 magnum though.

10mm is much more difficult to locate than .38spl or .357 magnum. More expensive, too. That's the primary reason I chose the way I do.
Understood, another score for .357 Mag.
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Old 04-18-2013, 15:11   #44
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Comparing the two in practical terms.

Bullet weights are similar, with the 10mm going about 20 grains higher at the maximum weight. Neither is it practical to use the highest weight for defense, though they have hunting applications.

The 10mm has a wider diameter which will leave a larger wound cavity, while the .357 has a higher sectional density for superior penetration.

They are capable of producing similar velocities within their safe pressure ranges. Both have a lot of potential for hand loading.

They're both about the most powerful civilian defense rounds that are practical to carry in their respective platforms.

Historically they were designed for different purposes. The 10mm was designed to punch through a lot of flesh in the event a hit was made in less than optimal location, in order to better guarantee an incapacitation. While the .357mag does that quite well also, its original purpose was to be a hard target penetrator that could punch through heavy steel cars of the era. This the .357mag's higher sectional density, paired with increased velocity gets the job done. When it comes to bone it works just as well.

In all practical terms, you're in a good position behind either one of them. Now let's talk about what you'll actually find in either one. Most factory 10mm rounds aren't loaded anywhere near their full potential. They're basically longer .40S&W rounds, and will perform similarly. .357mag factory rounds however often cater to those attracted by the "magnum" name, and come much closer to true magnum performance. Though I'll be fair and say that factory rounds still aren't sold as close to full power as they could be, aside from a few brands.

If you're not doing experimental, pushing the envelope handloads, you're looking at negligible differences. Nothing from the factory in 10mm is going to reproduce a .41 magnum, and even handloads are only going to scrape the bottom of low recoil .41mag loads. It's just not a .41 magnum and never will be. What 10mm is is a very effective defensive caliber as long as you make sure you're not buying from a manufacturer that's skimping on the powder charge.

Now it comes down to platform. Semi vs. Revolver. Semi will give you more rounds but can be picky about recoil and will need a specific range to properly operate the mechanism. The revolver will eat and spit out whatever you can feed it. The semi can give you up to 15 rounds, while the revolver maxes out at 8, and more practically 6. Both can be reloaded quickly by someone who knows what they're doing, while someone untrained will fumble with either. A revolver (not including some bargain basement brands. *cough*taurus*cough) generally malfunctions less. No stovepipes, failures to feed, failures to eject, and if you get a dud, all you need do is pull the trigger again. The semi on the other hand is easier to work on if something does go wrong. Neither will run well if abused, or poorly made in the first place. In the end revolver vs semi is personal preference, and I think that's where the line between .357 magnum fans and 10mm fans are drawn. Not so much the round its self, as what fires it. Of course there are 10mm revolvers, and one .357mag semi.

Either is a decent price of admission to laugh at 9mm vs .45 debates.
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Old 04-18-2013, 20:49   #45
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...While the .357mag does that quite well also, its original purpose was to be a hard target penetrator that could punch through heavy steel cars of the era...

Actually, it was designed as a hunting round. Major Wesson took all sorts of large game with his 8" Registered Magnum before marketing it. LE had already turned to the .38 Super for auto body penetration by then.
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Old 04-18-2013, 21:11   #46
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Energy dump is kind of a myth. If the bullet fails, the energy is used up in destroying the bullet. So in order for any energy to work for you, the bullet has to stay together...
The energy is "in the bullet" so wouldn't it be more correct to say that energy is released at the point of bullet failure?
I mean fragmenting bullets work quite well as long as they come apart at the proper penetration depth.
Agree or not??
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Old 04-18-2013, 21:32   #47
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The energy is "in the bullet" so wouldn't it be more correct to say that energy is released at the point of bullet failure?
I mean fragmenting bullets work quite well as long as they come apart at the proper penetration depth.
Agree or not??
I don't agree.

If I read what Fred is saying it is the same point I've made in other places.

It takes energy to deform and fragment a bullet. Where does that energy come from? It doesn't come from the target, the bullet brings that energy with it. Therefore the energy it takes to fragment the lead and copper has to be subtracted from the energy it arrived with.
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Old 04-18-2013, 21:39   #48
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I don't agree...the bullet brings that energy with it. Therefore the energy it takes to fragment the lead and copper has to be subtracted from the energy it arrived with.
Yes, but where does that energy go? It goes, or is released, into the target.
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Old 04-18-2013, 21:44   #49
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Yes, but where does that energy go? It goes, or is released, into the target.
Yeah?

Why is it that, in baseball, when the bat breaks, the ball basically never goes very far or very fast?

That breakup requires/uses energy.
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Old 04-18-2013, 21:46   #50
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Energy dump is kind of a myth. If the bullet fails, the energy is used up in destroying the bullet. So in order for any energy to work for you, the bullet has to stay together. The opp would be a FMJ penetrating completely, little energy deposited to the target.
The 10mm is a about equal to the 357mag, maybe a bit better with sim bbl lengths. The 10mm is not, never will be a 41mag, regardless of how much you over load it IMO.

While I have no first hand experience with the concept of energy dump on the target, the Law of Conservation of Energy would state the energy used up destroying the bullet is transferred to the what it is breaking up in. Can't get around physics. A bullet traveling faster than design won't penetrate fully but suspect it would cause a very painful wound. Isn't this the concept behind the original 5.56 loads??

10mm and 357 are close enough in performance it really comes down to your preference in revolvers vs pistols. Owning both I find the 357 easier to reload for; if it fits in the cylinder it works. Unfortunately for me I find I use a lot more 10mm ammo up when on a range - hard to not load 10 or more at a time and they go fast.......
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.357 has cooler boolits, .357 magnum, 10mm, 10mm fantasyland, ballistics
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42