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Old 01-27-2013, 08:54   #26
RussP
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I don't disagree with anything you are saying, Scottie. Except that the federal government will not leave us alone no matter how responsible we are or what safety standards we create/follow. What you seem to be forgetting is that firearms safety has nothing to do with this recent commotion about bans and needing more gun laws.
Is this a true statement? "Law abiding gun owners are not responsible for the overwhelming majority of gun violence."

Is this a true statement? "The overwhelming majority of gun violence is traceable to street criminals, gangs, home invaders, _______ (you fill in the others)."

Is this a true statement? "Those responsible for the overwhelming majority of gun violence obtain some of their firearms by theft from law abiding gun owners."

Is this a true statement? "No law abiding gun owner wants their firearm used to harm or kill others."

Is this a true statement? "It is every law abiding gun owner's personal responsibility to keep their firearms out of the hands of those responsible for the overwhelming majority of gun violence."

Thank you...

We keep telling EVERYONE that to reduce crime, get guns out of the hands of the real perpetrators of violence. Whom do we blame when it isn't done? Cops, prosecutors, judges are the first, right?

Then when they ask how secure was your weapon that was stolen then used to rob the convenience store where the clerk was murdered...what? It was in my bedside table, the top of my closet away from my kids, etc. Is there mention of a Liberty safe, a Cannon safe, a "Whatever Brand" safe?

Children are killed by firearms. A far greater number than Sandy Hook. The numbers are still included in the counts of Death by Firearms. What is the greatest cause? Is it secured firearms or unsecured firearms? Where lies the responsibility for securing those firearms?

Personal responsibility, that is what this is about.
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Old 01-27-2013, 08:58   #27
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What you seem to be forgetting is that firearms safety has nothing to do with this recent commotion about bans and needing more gun laws.
Then why ask why Lanza's mother did not secure her firearms? Why did she leave them where he had access to them. Without that basic, preventive measure, he obtained the tools he needed. That opened the door to those murders.
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:01   #28
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Neither does the death of 20 children. Sen. Feinstein had her new AWB ready and waiting for the opportunity to roll..."Never let a crisis go to waste."...You know why they didn't do anything then? Too close to the election!
Politics suck, huh?
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:03   #29
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We keep telling EVERYONE that to reduce crime, get guns out of the hands of the real perpetrators of violence.
No, I tell my legislators that violent criminals do not belong on the streets where non-violent folks live.

It is impossible to keep guns out of the hands of criminals. Countries with very strict gun control have armed criminals. If gun control is supposed to reduce crime, why does it never accomplish that goal?

And any time someone uses the phrase 'gun violence', you know that their agenda is NOT to protect children or reduce crime. Their agenda is to disarm the populace. Otherwise they would be talking about violent crime or murder, not just focusing on 'gun violence'.

And the answer to your other questions is 'true'. Many studies have been done. Look them up yourself. Google is your friend.
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:18   #30
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Need to lock the criminals up for longer sentences. No need to make homeowners get safes.

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Old 01-27-2013, 09:26   #31
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And the answer to your other questions is 'true'. Many studies have been done. Look them up yourself. Google is your friend.
Thank you for answering and for the suggestion.

The questions are rhetorical ones.

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Old 01-27-2013, 09:37   #32
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We keep telling EVERYONE that to reduce crime, get guns out of the hands of the real perpetrators of violence. Whom do we blame when it isn't done? Cops, prosecutors, judges are the first, right?
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No, I tell my legislators that violent criminals do not belong on the streets where non-violent folks live.
You quoted only a part of my comment.

Why are you telling legislators criminals need to be taken off the street? Legislators make laws. Do you want them to create more laws? They do not investigate, arrest, prosecute, or sentence violent criminals.

I forgot lenient parole boards in my list.

What do you want your legislator to do?
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:40   #33
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Need to lock the criminals up for longer sentences. No need to make homeowners get safes.

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Again, where is there a suggestion that securing firearms in certain ways would be mandated.

This is about everyone taking personal responsibility voluntarily.

Do you disagree that securing your firearms is a responsible act?
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:42   #34
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Can you point out where in the Bill of Rights safes are mentioned?
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:48   #35
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You should check out a YouTube video call security on sale.

They show two guys take less than two minutes to break into average gun safe. Guess what would be in there. All your guns, not mine. Nobody can find all my guns.


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Old 01-27-2013, 09:56   #36
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Can you point out where in the Bill of Rights safes are mentioned?
What came first, The Bill of Rights or a person's responsibility for their own actions?

The Bill of Rights is meant as protection from the government.

We are personally responsible for our safety, correct?

Reducing the risk of gun theft and any resulting crime begins where?
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Old 01-27-2013, 09:57   #37
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Can you point out where in the Bill of Rights safes are mentioned?
[sarcasm]It's right after where it says Scary Black Semi Auto = "assault weapon" and shall not be infringed does not apply to them. Guess you didn't get the memo. [/sarcasm]
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:00   #38
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We are already seeing it in NY's new law- the requirement to have a safe to keep guns locked up- but like the UK they (NY STATE POLICE ) have to certify the safe! If they don't like it No guns for you! It's in Feinstiens new AWB as well! I'll say it again no compromise. I'm done with it! Stay the hell out of my life FEDS! There are way to many so called gun owners more then willing to just bend over an take it without lube!
If your so willing just to fold and give up your God given rights -just go turn your firearms in and be done with it! Your not helping us that believe in our right to own , carry with out Government "Infringments"!
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:03   #39
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All your guns, not mine. Nobody can find all my guns.
Did someone mandate you take measures to secure your firearms, or did you personally decide to do so? Do you believe you could be considered a role model for responsible gun ownership?
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:07   #40
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This may be the subject for a different thread, but is to the point of responsible gun owners...

Read a story in the local paper about a 6 year old finding a loaded gun in her home and shooting herself in the head. Killed her instantly. The article, written by an anti-gunner, then went into a rant about this being another reason why "guns are bad".

My point, similar to the OP, is simply that we all need to be careful when securing our weapons, whether against theft or from access by young children. We don't need to give any more fodder for the gun-grabbers to use against us.
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:07   #41
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RussP
We are already seeing it in NY's new law- the requirement to have a safe to keep guns locked up- but like the UK they (NY STATE POLICE ) have to certify the safe! If they don't like it No guns for you! It's in Feinstiens new AWB as well! I'll say it again no compromise. I'm done with it! Stay the hell out of my life FEDS! There are way to many so called gun owners more then willing to just bend over an take it without lube!
If your so willing just to fold and give up your God given rights -just go turn your firearms in and be done with it! Your not helping us that believe in our right to own , carry with out Government "Infringments"!
Are your firearms secured in a way that a thief would either not find them, or would have a difficult time acquiring them?

Again, the OP's suggestion is that we take the personal responsibility on ourselves to make our firearms getting on the street as difficult as possible.
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:14   #42
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What came first, The Bill of Rights or a person's responsibility for their own actions?
Oh boy! You and I are gonna fight.

Personal responsibility = I lock my house when I leave. My matches and gasoline are in a locked garage. If a thief brakes in steals them and burns down a building is it my fault? My car is locked. If a thief steals it and kills someone with it is it my fault? Why is it if I don't spend EXTRA money on EXTRA security for my guns it's viewed as I've "shirked" my "personal responsibility". I have a safe. $1,200.00 wort of safe. If they brake into my home, then brake into my safe have I shirked my personal responsibility because I didn't buy a better safe? I'm pretty sure that a home is a man's castle and if locked anything inside should be considered secure. If a criminal wants what you have there are going to get it. How much money spent for how much security does it take to "prove" I have take "personal" responsibility? According to the antis it takes melting down all of my firearms. Don't fall into the blame trap. The only ones to blame are the criminals.
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:26   #43
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Personally I secure them not only as a safety measure but also because I don't want them taken if someone breaks in... While I can understand not wanting to make people buy a thousand dollar safe, I personally think buying a safe is worth the money in case of fire, break-ins, etc. certainly cheaper to buy a safe than the cost of replacing the firearms


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Old 01-27-2013, 10:44   #44
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Personally I secure them not only as a safety measure but also because I don't want them taken if someone breaks in... While I can understand not wanting to make people buy a thousand dollar safe, I personally think buying a safe is worth the money in case of fire, break-ins, etc. certainly cheaper to buy a safe than the cost of replacing the firearms


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You missed the point. The point is "RESPONSIBILITY". If you want to get-into fire and lost through theft it's recoverable through insurance. See I took the "personal responsibility" of insuring my firearms with the NRA.

Again how much money is a person to spend and on what to show they are a "responsible" person. According to some it's locking a door. According to others it's keeping your firearms in Fort Knox and yet others say the responsible thing is to not have them at all.

So lets get back to the real deal. People want to blame firearms owners if they don't lock their house, weld the doors shut, buy a $1,000,000.00 safe hire an armed guard etc. etc. Then that still isn't enough when it comes to guns. Yet if a thief steals a car and kills someone with it the owner isn't to blame. Rightfully so! But it's the double standard that makes my gonads swell.

I find that the better off a person is the more they want to tell others what they need to spend their money on to be "responsible". A man that saves may be able to afford a rifle and a pistol. But if he can't afford a safe or lock-box and the time to bolt the lock box to the floor or or or he's not considered "responsible". I find telling that man that he isn't responsible to be irresponsible.
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Old 01-27-2013, 11:08   #45
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Oh boy! You and I are gonna fight.
IT"S ON CUZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Which came first?

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Personal responsibility = I lock my house when I leave. My matches and gasoline are in a locked garage. My car is locked. Why is it if I don't spend EXTRA money on EXTRA security for my guns it's viewed as I've "shirked" my "personal responsibility.
Your situation, how you secure your firearms would not be viewed by anyone. It is another personal decision we gun owners make. The only time storage would come into play is if an event occurs involving your firearms.

Another way of putting that is what liability exists for a firearm owner if his/her gun(s) are criminally used that having a degree of security would mitigate the outcome?

Again, this is all about personal, voluntary decisions. No mandate by anyone.
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I have a safe. $1,200.00 wort of safe.
If mine cost more, does that mean mine's bigger than yours...
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If they brake into my home, then brake into my safe shave I shirked my personal responsibility because I didn't buy a better safe? I'm pretty sure that a home is a man's castle and if locked anything inside should be considered secure. If a criminal wants what you have there are going to get it. How much money spent for how much security does it take to "prove" I have take "personal" responsibility? According to the antis it takes melting down all of my firearms. Don't fall into blame trap. The only ones to blame or the criminals.
From the bottom up, no one is assigning blame. The suggestion is securing firearms will reduce the number of guns stolen, thus reducing the number of guns getting to the street.

Yes, melting guns, perhaps the next .gov anti violence funding will include a foundry for every department with quotas... That would be even less popular than DUI Checkpoint funding!!!

True, hardcore criminals will eventually get what they want. The hardcores, they are mostly a small group. The larger group, the opportunistic ones, they will not be prepared to get into your safe. What they are looking for are easy scores. You do what you are able to do. Remember, there is no government mandate. There is no government established standard. Money spent is not a standard.

Yes, a man's castle is just that. What you do there is your business. If you live in a second story walk-up studio apartment rental, there are not many heavy duty options available, especially for long guns. In rentals, there's always the possibility the maintenance requirements might mean someone comes in while you're out. What do you do then?

See, there is a whole spectrum here. There's b_oglethorpe. He may be at the top. You won't find his firearms. There's the guy who moved into a studio apartment in a complex my company managed. He came in and asked permission to secure a safe in his closet for "valuables." Gun Vault printed on the door was the hint. I had a trusted maintenance supervisor, a gun owner himself. A little steel here, some there, sheet rock over it. Pretty secure storage. Oh, and the agreement was that the safe stayed if he moved out within three years. He didn't move...

So, are their ways to enhance security? I think so. Of course, not everyone has me running their property management company...
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Old 01-27-2013, 11:19   #46
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Part of my determination to secure the guns I own is because I don't want to lose them to thieves. They are valuable and would be difficult to replace, even with a generous insurance settlement. Folks who keep large amounts of cash or valuable jewelry at home usually take careful measures to secure these things. They do so because locking the castle's front door provides little protection against thieves. No disrespect meant Jerry, but it is naive to say 'my home is sacred ground, so don't expect me to do more to protect valuables than lock the door'. That position is careless unless you are comfortable with the notion that all valuables can be replaced, and that's what insurance is for. Thieves don't give a damn about your castle except they want the valuable stuff inside it. Guns, as we all know, are among the most desirable merchandise sought by thieves. Furthermore, it is callous to disregard the fact that one's stolen guns might end up being used by criminals...perhaps to kill.

Once guns are stolen, where will they likely end up? They will often be in the hands of criminals, because anyone who knowingly buys stolen property is a criminal. Stolen guns are often used to commit crimes, and some are used to kill. Thus, is it enough to say if my front door is locked my responsibility has been fulfilled?

If a child kills himself or a playmate with a loaded gun that was hidden on a high closet shelf, is it enough to say the gun was placed well above his reach, so the gun owner's responsibility was fulfilled? If a liquor store clerk is killed because a gun was easily stolen, was the gun owner's responsibility fulfilled by locking the front door?

As responsible citizens, we are morally obliged to behave in a way that protects our families and fellow citizens from harm, aren't we? When our moral obligations are ignored and people are harmed, shouldn't there be consequences beyond feeling guilty or sorrowful?

When our failure to secure firearms results in our gun being used to wound or kill another citizen, the law should hold us accountable, somehow, for such negligence. Whether the victim is our own child or a 7-11 cashier in another state, we are complicit in the violent act because of our negligence, in my opinion.

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Old 01-27-2013, 11:27   #47
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IT"S ON CUZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Which came first?

Your situation, how you secure your firearms would not be viewed by anyone. It is another personal decision we gun owners make. The only time storage would come into play is if an event occurs involving your firearms.

Another way of putting that is what liability exists for a firearm owner if his/her gun(s) are criminally used that having a degree of security would mitigate the outcome?

Again, this is all about personal, voluntary decisions. No mandate by anyone.If mine cost more, does that mean mine's bigger than yours...From the bottom up, no one is assigning blame. The suggestion is securing firearms will reduce the number of guns stolen, thus reducing the number of guns getting to the street.

Yes, melting guns, perhaps the next .gov anti violence funding will include a foundry for every department with quotas... That would be even less popular than DUI Checkpoint funding!!!

True, hardcore criminals will eventually get what they want. The hardcores, they are mostly a small group. The larger group, the opportunistic ones, they will not be prepared to get into your safe. What they are looking for are easy scores. You do what you are able to do. Remember, there is no government mandate. There is no government established standard. Money spent is not a standard.

Yes, a man's castle is just that. What you do there is your business. If you live in a second story walk-up studio apartment rental, there are not many heavy duty options available, especially for long guns. In rentals, there's always the possibility the maintenance requirements might mean someone comes in while you're out. What do you do then?

See, there is a whole spectrum here. There's b_oglethorpe. He may be at the top. You won't find his firearms. There's the guy who moved into a studio apartment in a complex my company managed. He came in and asked permission to secure a safe in his closet for "valuables." Gun Vault printed on the door was the hint. I had a trusted maintenance supervisor, a gun owner himself. A little steel here, some there, sheet rock over it. Pretty secure storage. Oh, and the agreement was that the safe stayed if he moved out within three years. He didn't move...

So, are their ways to enhance security? I think so. Of course, not everyone has me running their property management company...
Yes yours is probably bigger. But it's the amount firepower in it that counts.

With all that said it still boils down to... Their "responsibility" ends when a criminal steals their property. Even if they didn't lock the door to their house. If someone left their car unlocked, a criminal stole it and killed someone with it they would not be held responsible. Why oh why should it be and different if you use the word gun in the sentence?
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Old 01-27-2013, 11:40   #48
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Then why ask why Lanza's mother did not secure her firearms? Why did she leave them where he had access to them. Without that basic, preventive measure, he obtained the tools he needed. That opened the door to those murders.
We really don't know whether she tried to secure them or not, do we? I mean, the kid was smart. Maybe she had them in a safe with an electronic lock, and the kid watched her open it once, or maybe he figured out where she had the combination written down. Maybe he used a sawzall or a 5' crowbar to break into her safe. If that turns out to be the case, then the politicians can really put the beat-down on gun owners.
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:11   #49
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This may be the subject for a different thread, but is to the point of responsible gun owners...

Read a story in the local paper about a 6 year old finding a loaded gun in her home and shooting herself in the head. Killed her instantly. The article, written by an anti-gunner, then went into a rant about this being another reason why "guns are bad".

My point, similar to the OP, is simply that we all need to be careful when securing our weapons, whether against theft or from access by young children. We don't need to give any more fodder for the gun-grabbers to use against us.
I think this is a good point. Gun owners have a responsibility to keep their weapons away from their children, to educate everyone in their family on safety etc. This I wholly agree with.

What I do not accept is the notion that if a criminal breaks into your home and steals your property, a gun, then commits a murder with it... that somehow the gun owner was liable in any way. It is a ridiculous argument.

BTW I love/and agree with your signature Sir
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Old 01-27-2013, 12:54   #50
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With all that said it still boils down to... Their "responsibility" ends when a criminal steals their property. Even if they didn't lock the door to their house. If someone left their car unlocked, a criminal stole it and killed someone with it they would not be held responsible. Why oh why should it be and different if you use the word gun in the sentence?
Criminally, I am not familiar with all states laws.

Civilly, the way the juries and courts are headed, someone will try to get you. Even if dismissed at first reading, the cost of defending yourself will be large, maybe more than the cost of that little safe of yours.
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