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Old 01-30-2013, 20:42   #151
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Originally Posted by NMOFT View Post
The motivations for carrying in C1 have already been discussed in depth in previous posts, but since you insist Iíll give you my response.

My motivation is based on my past safety training and experience. I take precautions to manage risk based not on my estimation of the likelihood of a bad event occurring but on the seriousness of the consequences. Therefore I employ all of my PPE all of the time in a complete state of readiness even though the likelihood of it being necessary seems low. The consequences are just too serious to do otherwise.


On the other hand the C3 mindset seems to depend on the ability to accurately predict the unpredictable. You estimate the likely hood of being attacked as being near zero and the likely hood of an ND as being greater than near zero so you mitigate the risk of an ND by carrying a weapon that is for all practical purposes unloaded. Why burden yourself with a weapon at all?


In addition, while you can adopt certain strategies to reduce the risk of a criminal attack, when a criminal does select you as a victim, he has the initiative and you really have no control of the situation at that point. All of you options then become purely reactive until you can regain the initiative.


On the other hand preventing an ND is totally within you control and the risk is easily mitigated by developing a few simple safety habits.

So, I donít understand the mindset of empty chamber carry. You manage the risk of an ND by keeping you weapon in a state of unreadiness that very likely makes it useless to prevent the very event you carry it for.


Again, I mean no disrespect, I just donít get it. But thatís OK because really itís none of my business.
Carry on and have a good day.
Thanks.
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Old 01-30-2013, 20:52   #152
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Originally Posted by SilenceDoGood View Post
Most people who first start carrying experience Cognitive Dissonance in regards to carrying one in the chamber; that is, you are performing an action that goes against your cultural conditioning. Mainstream western culture is to be overtly cautious around firearms, if not all out afraid. This is the conditioning you grew up in for 18+ years. The action of carrying a loaded firearm so close to your body completley goes against the cultural conditioning. It is a normal question when people first starting carrying, hence why it has been asked for years and years and years on this forum and every other one. The feeling is also normal.

In summation: you are feeling cognitive dissonance, it's normal, carry one in the chamber when you're ready, follow the four rules of gun safety.

I had to laugh at your post and for me your statements are preposterous and a bunch of crap.

Perhaps, I did not grow up in the ďMain stream (of) western cultureĒ as I am not ďovertly cautious around firearmsĒ and definitely ďnot all out afraidĒ of them. I am safe, experienced and proficient with firearms and I feel comfortable and secure with firearms on and around me. I feel more comfortable, safe and secure with a loaded firearm on and/or around me, than not having a loaded firearm nearby.

I had to snicker when I read the part about; ďThe action of carrying a loaded firearm so close to your body (completely) goes against the cultural conditioning.Ē In the culture that I was raised, carrying a loaded firearm was a regular occurrence from a very early age. Being ready and able to shoot a firearm, to protect the livestock and other property, was a requirement and a duty.

RJ
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Old 01-30-2013, 22:15   #153
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Originally Posted by RJ's Guns;19931762
[FONT=Calibri
I had to snicker when I read the part about; “The action of carrying a loaded firearm so close to your body (completely) goes against the cultural conditioning.” In the culture that I was raised, carrying a loaded firearm was a regular occurrence from a very early age. Being ready and able to shoot a firearm, to protect the livestock and other property, was a requirement and a duty. [/FONT]

RJ

In most of the Country, a firearm is a tool that is typically close at hand. Purhaps he is talking about Boston
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Old 01-31-2013, 00:47   #154
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Originally Posted by ArlenGunClub View Post
Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.
That's a no brainer. I would never think of not having gun chambered. Imagine you get attacked your arm is broken. You can get your gun out but now what? Your dead. I have Glock and XD.
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:05   #155
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I carry C1 and that's what I recommend.

There are a lot of people out there who carry C3 and they do just fine.

Try not to take these things so personal. <---This is important.

C1 carriers are not irresponsible dolts (well most of us anyway) and C3 carriers aren't a bunch of nervous Nellies.

Get a grip.

And thanks to those of you who discussed this like grownups.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
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Old 01-31-2013, 06:27   #156
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Originally Posted by NMOFT View Post
The motivations for carrying in C1 have already been discussed in depth in previous posts, but since you insist Iíll give you my response.

My motivation is based on my past safety training and experience. I take precautions to manage risk based not on my estimation of the likelihood of a bad event occurring but on the seriousness of the consequences. Therefore I employ all of my PPE all of the time in a complete state of readiness even though the likelihood of it being necessary seems low. The consequences are just too serious to do otherwise.


On the other hand the C3 mindset seems to depend on the ability to accurately predict the unpredictable. You estimate the likely hood of being attacked as being near zero and the likely hood of an ND as being greater than near zero so you mitigate the risk of an ND by carrying a weapon that is for all practical purposes unloaded. Why burden yourself with a weapon at all?


In addition, while you can adopt certain strategies to reduce the risk of a criminal attack, when a criminal does select you as a victim, he has the initiative and you really have no control of the situation at that point. All of you options then become purely reactive until you can regain the initiative.


On the other hand preventing an ND is totally within you control and the risk is easily mitigated by developing a few simple safety habits.

So, I donít understand the mindset of empty chamber carry. You manage the risk of an ND by keeping you weapon in a state of unreadiness that very likely makes it useless to prevent the very event you carry it for.


Again, I mean no disrespect, I just donít get it. But thatís OK because really itís none of my business.
Carry on and have a good day.

Great post brother, very well spoken.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:05   #157
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Some food for thought for those debating and thinking they have practiced enough that racking the slide only takes a half second.

This was posted by Mas Ayoob a few months ago to someone asking about carrying their gun with no round in the chamber.

Quote:
I go with the round in the chamber philosophy. The handgun is primarily a reactive weapon. NYPD SOP-9 studies indicate that it will be fired one-handed roughly half the time. The attacker may be physically on you, making it impossible to rack the slide with the other hand, and the one-handed fixes for that don't work too well in dynamic movement.
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show...hlight=chamber

In addition to Mas's comment, when I looked at some of the NYPD SOP 9 studies for older shootings (the half shooting one handed was within the last year or so), they had one stat that jumped out. They had tracked fatal officer shootings over a 25 year period that ended in '79, and of those shootings, 1/3 of them the encounter occurred between 0'-3' and half occurred from 3-6'.

I didn't look far enough to see if there was more recent data on the fatal/surviving shooting distances from NYPD. However, if you combine these facts. That the most recent NYPD SOP Study shows that 1/2 of the officers had to shoot with one hand and that in a past study, 81% of the officers that died in shooting encounters did so at distances of less than 6 feet and you can see how carrying with an empty chamber can mean you have zero chance to defend yourself in a significant (if not majority) of situations where you would need to use a firearm to defend yourself or your family.
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Old 01-31-2013, 07:21   #158
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Definitely

I certainly do carry my G17 with the chamber loaded. NO ADs or NDs here. I simply keep my finger off the trigger unless I am shooting it at the range. My 115gr JHP +p+ loads are ready for defense.
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Old 01-31-2013, 08:31   #159
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This has been discussed to death. The best safety is between your ears. Without one in the chamber, glocks make terrible hammers. If you don't pull the trigger, it won't fire-period. A proper holster should allow you to draw and re-holster your gun without ever touching the trigger. Look into a holster with a combat cut
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:22   #160
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This has been discussed to death. The best safety is between your ears. Without one in the chamber, glocks make terrible hammers. If you don't pull the trigger, it won't fire-period. A proper holster should allow you to draw and re-holster your gun without ever touching the trigger. Look into a holster with a combat cut
I agree. The best safety IS in one's brain. And an empty-chambered Glock is almost useless.
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Old 01-31-2013, 11:44   #161
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Originally Posted by ArlenGunClub View Post
Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.
I bought a glock for the reliability. When I started carrying I was uneasy about a hot chamber. I carried a full mag with an empty chamber. And as I got more comfortable with my 19 I gradually moved to a hot chamber. Definitely nice because you are always prepared for an empty chamber or a misfire.
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Old 01-31-2013, 13:00   #162
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Originally Posted by ashecht View Post
This has been discussed to death. The best safety is between your ears. Without one in the chamber, glocks make terrible hammers. If you don't pull the trigger, it won't fire-period. A proper holster should allow you to draw and re-holster your gun without ever touching the trigger. Look into a holster with a combat cut
This subject comes up often because a lot of people are trying to decide which method of carry is right for them.

People who are new to firearms or CC come here looking for guidance. They hope to get answers based on our experience. I try to respond based upon a lifetime of gun experience with safety as the most important principle. Too many others, in my opinion, answer according to what they have read here and in gun mags such as "an unchambered pistol is nothing more than a club or a hammer". There are lots of cliche statements that show up in every thread like this one because people don't have real-life experience to support their statements.

Being conservative in evaluating one's proficiency with a Glock isn't being unmanly or 'chicken', its being smart and mature. Advising EVERYONE who asks about C1 vs C3 that carrying a chambered pistol is the ONLY right answer is foolish, unrealistic, careless and could be downright dangerous.

C1 is fine if you need it and you are truly proficient with your weapon. If you aren't experienced and competent, carry unchambered until you get there. You might even discover along the way that C3 is just fine all the time.

For those who suggest this topic is worn out and threads like this one should automatically be shut down, be advised that this thread has had almost 5,000 views in the short time its been running. I think its an important subject until people stop asking the question.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 01-31-2013 at 13:32..
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Old 01-31-2013, 13:05   #163
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
This subject gets chewed on a lot because there are at least two right answers.

You see the world through your lens while I see it through mine. Your opinion is C1 for everybody. My opinion is that folks who lack the experience and training necessary to be proficient with a self defense handgun should carry C3.

People who are new to firearms or CC come here looking for guidance. They hope to get answers based on our experience. I try to respond based upon a lifetime of gun experience with safety as the most important principle. Too many others, in my opinion, answer according to what they have read here and in gun mags such as "an unchambered pistol is nothing more than a club or a hammer". There are lots of cliche statements that show up in every thread like this one because people don't have real-life experience to support their statements.

Being conservative in evaluating one's proficiency with a Glock isn't being unmanly or 'chicken', its being smart and mature. Advising EVERYONE who asks about C1 vs C3 that carrying with a chambered pistol is the ONLY right answer is foolish, unrealistic, careless and could be downright dangerous.

C1 is fine if you need it and you are truly proficient with your weapon. If you aren't experienced and competent, carry unchambered until you get there.
Cannot agree more.
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Old 01-31-2013, 13:16   #164
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Originally Posted by IndyGunFreak View Post
Why aren't these threads locked immediately? You can find a bazillion opinions on this by using Google for about 4sec.

IGF
How exactly are you contributing to this thread?

This is GlockTalk and it looks to me - the people here are
talking and giving much food for thought.

IMHO
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Old 01-31-2013, 13:43   #165
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Oh God, not again!


What exactly is your point ?

Oh, people who aren't aligned with you way of thinking are a waste of time.

I guess your snarkiness is as well.
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Old 01-31-2013, 13:53   #166
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I lead a staid, routine life and as a result I normally carry without a chambered round unless I travel to an unknown locale or known dangerous area.

I concede that this method leaves a gap in my ability to respond to a potential life-or-death situation, but then I consider it no different than having to fumble with a manual safety. (None of my self-defense handguns have a manual safety)

I have read far more anecdotes by Glock Talk members about their ND/AD experiences than I have about their involvements in actual shootouts so I've decided to err on the side of caution in my normal routine.

Nobody can assess his/her individual circumstances except the individual, although it's always good to read suggestions as there are likely issues that one hasn't considered.
That's interesting. I tend to agree with you, particularly since I've never felt the need to even carry a gun (64).

Changing times and all that. I have a S&W 5 shot I sometimes carry and never worry about an A/D.

My G-19 is a different story. Although the need for a weapon can come upon us at any time, I tend to agree with you and keep one in the chamber dependent upon my personal assessment of where I will find myself.

Drugstore in very safe suburb = not chambered

Anywhere within Cleveland borders = chambered

Everything is subject to change
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Old 01-31-2013, 14:13   #167
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Originally Posted by fireforged Carry Issues
..i can train myself to quickly put on a seatbelt at the earliest sign of a traffic accident, but that plan doesnt seem prudent.

^^+1^^


Gotta admit, that's a heck of a point.
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Old 01-31-2013, 15:04   #168
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Originally Posted by Smithers View Post
That's interesting. I tend to agree with you, particularly since I've never felt the need to even carry a gun (64).

Changing times and all that. I have a S&W 5 shot I sometimes carry and never worry about an A/D.

My G-19 is a different story. Although the need for a weapon can come upon us at any time, I tend to agree with you and keep one in the chamber dependent upon my personal assessment of where I will find myself.

Drugstore in very safe suburb = not chambered

Anywhere within Cleveland borders = chambered

Everything is subject to change
I pretty much follow your practice using C3 unless I'm at Walmart late at night or stopping at an interstate highway rest area.

Many would argue that we should carry one way all the time, and I believe there is merit in that position. I'm still trying to decide what makes the most sense for me.

Right now I feel most comfortable, from a safety standpoint, with C3 when I carry during routine daily activities. In places where bad things are more likely to happen, shifting gears to C1 is an integral part of my situational awareness discipline; I'm on alert in a dark parking lot and I'm aware a round is chambered.

I know my approach flies in the face of conventional wisdom, but for now thats how I do it. I'd rather be armed in C3 than unarmed whenever I am carrying (I don't CC 100% of the time). I feel competent to carry a chambered weapon in the rare instances when I venture into places like public rest parks; a higher level of alertness accompanied by a heightened consciousness that my gun is chambered seems appropriate and safe to me. Let me say again, these are rare instances because my lifestyle doesn't include frequent exposure to high risk situations.

I am continuously thinking about my CC methods because of the responsibility each of us takes on when we carry a firearm. Carrying only in C3 regardless of my surroundings, in the final analysis, might be the best approach for me.

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Old 01-31-2013, 15:19   #169
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Thanks for the quick replies guys. Im confident enough with myself handling and holstering the weapon to not be concerned with an accidental discharge. My CHL instructor mentioned the safety issue thing and said "I'd be scared to carry that thing chambered" so I thought it was a big deal with Glocks. Guess not. Glad to hear it's not and I'll carry it ready to go.
Ask for your money back because this instructor obviously is lacking the required knowledge to teach a basic firearms class.
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Old 01-31-2013, 15:21   #170
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
I wonder why nobody ever thought to ask this before?

I carry with a round in the chamber. If I don't want the gun to fire, I don't pulll the trigger. If you can't do that, get some OC spray and a rape whistle.

Most police officers in America carry a Glock, every one of them carry it with a round in the chamber. Many of them d0on't even shoot as a hobby - the gun is just work equipment - yet they mostly manage not to shoot themselves. Those that do shoot themselves do it by pointing the gun at themselves and pulling the trigger.
Not quite correct with this one. You should take a look at what happened in Washington, DC after they issued Glocks to their police officers.
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Old 01-31-2013, 15:23   #171
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I never had and never will have round in the chamber - instead I practice racking the slide when dryfiring. Racking slide instinctively becomes as quick/smooth as drawing from the holster. The time it takes me to take the gun out, rack the slide, and place sights on target is minimal since the gun follows the same trajectory out of the holster and on target without slowing down. Racking the slide takes place while the gun is moving to the target.

My rationale - I want to guarantee no AD due to operator error and I don't want to shoot myself in the hip when the adrenaline dump begins and your fine motor reflexes go out the window making you likely to accidentally place finger on the trigger and squeeze the trigger without realizing you are doing this. Some might argue: Practice keeping the f@$#&ng finger off the trigger. And, I do. But, I want an extra precaution for the flight/fight episodes.

If not cambering round works for Israeli military - a superb force operating in some of the most challenging/dangerous environments - it is good enough for me.

But you need to practice (and practice, and practice) racking the slide. As a very useful bonus, being able to quickly rack the slide makes you faster when clearing malfunctions.
So how would that work if a BG managed to get a shot off and it made a solid hit on your support arm or hand before you were able to chamber a round?
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Old 01-31-2013, 15:25   #172
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One in the pipe, but make sure your comfortable with it.
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Old 01-31-2013, 15:27   #173
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Glad this was asked, there's nothing on this site about it! . Keep your booger picker off the bang button


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Old 01-31-2013, 15:31   #174
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This subject comes up from time to time and most always, engenders the same responses. We all have our opinions on this one and are sure that what we believe to be the right way to carry is, indeed, the right way. For example, I would never dream of carrying a defensive arm that is not loaded and in full battery. However, I do understand that there are those who, for whatever reason, just cannot bring themselves to do this. So I submit to you folks the following.

You are not going to know whether or not you took the right decision to carry without a round in the chamber until the time comes where you actually have to call upon your firearm to defend yourself. And even then, you will only know if whether or not your decision was the correct one for that specific event. Just remember, if you make a mistake you can't rewind and do it again. That only works in the movies.
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Old 01-31-2013, 15:37   #175
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Ask for your money back because this instructor obviously is lacking the required knowledge to teach a basic firearms class.
Maybe the instructor meant that a student, someone new to CC, shouldn't carry a Glock with a chambered round. Statements taken out of context do tend to get twisted a bit
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