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Old 01-29-2013, 12:06   #126
PhotoFeller
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Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
I lead a staid, routine life and as a result I normally carry without a chambered round unless I travel to an unknown locale or known dangerous area.

I concede that this method leaves a gap in my ability to respond to a potential life-or-death situation, but then I consider it no different than having to fumble with a manual safety. (None of my self-defense handguns have a manual safety)

I have read far more anecdotes by Glock Talk members about their ND/AD experiences than I have about their involvements in actual shootouts so I've decided to err on the side of caution in my normal routine.

Nobody can assess his/her individual circumstances except the individual, although it's always good to read suggestions as there are likely issues that one hasn't considered.
This honest, thoughtful, practical position represents the way we should all consider our particular circumstances in making CC technique decisions.

Many will disagree with this approach, but it seems smart and responsible in my way of thinking.
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Old 01-29-2013, 21:45   #127
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I usually donít comment on threads like this because I think what you carry and how you carry it is a personal choice and I have no desire to meddle. But this discussion has me intrigued, and since this discussion is occurring in the public domain I feel compelled to ask those of you that carry a weapon with an unloaded chamber some questions. Please donít take me wrong, I donít meant to be a smart alec or insulting Iím just genuinely curious.
Do you treat your other personal protective equipment the same way? Do you only buckle your seatbelt when you drive on the interstate? Do you keep a fire extinguisher in your kitchen? If you do is it charged?
PPE is part of my everyday life; I am required to wear fire resistant clothing everywhere I go every working day to protect against a flash fire. Iíve never been in a flash fire and if I thought I was going to be I wouldnít go to work. I wear an H2S monitor the same way. I donít think Iíll be exposed to a lethal concentration of H2S, but I wear the monitor anyway. No one can predict when something awful is going to happen on the job so we are always ready. It becomes a life time habit.
No one who goes armed really thinks they are going to engage in a SD shooting on any given day, yet on any given day someone will. How can you predict when you will need a ready weapon and when you will not?
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Old 01-29-2013, 22:45   #128
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I usually donít comment on threads like this because I think what you carry and how you carry it is a personal choice and I have no desire to meddle. But this discussion has me intrigued, and since this discussion is occurring in the public domain I feel compelled to ask those of you that carry a weapon with an unloaded chamber some questions. Please donít take me wrong, I donít meant to be a smart alec or insulting Iím just genuinely curious.
Do you treat your other personal protective equipment the same way? Do you only buckle your seatbelt when you drive on the interstate? Do you keep a fire extinguisher in your kitchen? If you do is it charged?
PPE is part of my everyday life; I am required to wear fire resistant clothing everywhere I go every working day to protect against a flash fire. Iíve never been in a flash fire and if I thought I was going to be I wouldnít go to work. I wear an H2S monitor the same way. I donít think Iíll be exposed to a lethal concentration of H2S, but I wear the monitor anyway. No one can predict when something awful is going to happen on the job so we are always ready. It becomes a life time habit.
No one who goes armed really thinks they are going to engage in a SD shooting on any given day, yet on any given day someone will. How can you predict when you will need a ready weapon and when you will not?
Several points I'd like to make in response to your very tactful (or was it sarcastic?) queery:

1. Given my age and lifestyle, the probability of being attacked is nearly 0.
2. Given my skill level, lack of recent training and infrequency of practice, I feel C3 with a Glock is safest for the people around me and for myself.
3. My CC techniques are less important than safety considerations.
4. My affinity for firearms makes CC a practice that is enjoyable in addition to providing a sense of security in some situations.

I hope this helps you understand why some of us carry C3 based upon our particular circumstances.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 01-30-2013 at 09:53..
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Old 01-30-2013, 00:49   #129
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Originally Posted by NMOFT View Post
Do you treat your other personal protective equipment the same way? Do you only buckle your seatbelt when you drive on the interstate? Do you keep a fire extinguisher in your kitchen? If you do is it charged?
1. I treat all important equipment well, and in the case of firearms I thoroughly inspect, clean, and lube them after each range session. Even if I've only shot 10 rounds. Ammo is kept in a cool, dry space off the floor, some of it sealed in an ammo can.

2. I'm always buckled up when driving.

3. I have a charged fire extinguisher in the pantry of my kitchen.

Quote:
PPE is part of my everyday life; I am required to wear fire resistant clothing everywhere I go every working day to protect against a flash fire. Iíve never been in a flash fire and if I thought I was going to be I wouldnít go to work. I wear an H2S monitor the same way. I donít think Iíll be exposed to a lethal concentration of H2S, but I wear the monitor anyway. No one can predict when something awful is going to happen on the job so we are always ready. It becomes a life time habit.
Yes, you work in an environment where you're surrounded by danger. Much different from those of us who aren't in a similar environment so my thinking is different than yours in many respects. My preparation is also much different than LEO personnel, for that matter.

Quote:
No one who goes armed really thinks they are going to engage in a SD shooting on any given day, yet on any given day someone will. How can you predict when you will need a ready weapon and when you will not?
By the same token nobody who handles firearms ever thinks he/she will suffer a negligent or accidental discharge, but this site alone has seen more than a few testimonials from Glock Talk members who have. By my calculation there are far more (non-LEO) members who have had a ND/AD than have engaged a criminal in a self-defense shooting. I don't dispute that it's better to be as ready to respond as reasonably possible, but I also believe it's better to be safe than sorry. Balancing the chances of a) being in a semi-prepared, potentially life-or-death encounter (very low probability) or b) suffering a ND/AD (if C1, higher probability) I choose to opt for C3 in my normal routine (which significantly lowers the chance of a ND/AD).
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:07   #130
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G23: one in the chamber, 13 in the 'magazine'.
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:29   #131
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G26 = 13 +1 or of little use.
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:15   #132
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I started with a '94 Beretta Cougar with manual thumb safety for CC. Then three Glocks. Now back to a thumb safety on a P938 for CC. Now I've got the hankering for a Colt New Agent. Always one in the chamber. However you carry, practice until it becomes second nature.
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:12   #133
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Vandros,

As others have said, we respect your opinion and overall comfort level. It is vitally-important to feel comfortable with carrying a mechanical device that requires significant levels of practice, training and confidence.

IMHO, fine motor skills don't come into play if you keep your trigger finger straight when unholstering. That way, the trigger finger begins to enter the trigger guard during the presentation phase. And at that point, the weapon is not pointed at your body.

That being said, may I pose one scenario to add to the others that have been constructively and logically presented in this thread:

You're walking back to your car at the gas station, movie theater, some parking lot. Or you're just walking along somehwere. Some guy comes up to you (doesn't matter if you saw him coming or not) and asks you if you have some change you could spare. Or he just starts making some small talk or asks you if you have a cigarette.

Now, at this time, you aren't sure if this guy is a potential assailant or someone down on his luck and needs some spare change.

He's just two or so feet away from you. Close conversation distance.

And before you know it, he begins to attack you or begins the process of some aggravated crime. He's right on top of you in an instant.

You mention that fine motor skills could be a problem when unholstering, causing ND's.

By the same token, you have to acknowledge the possibility that similar motor skills are what helps you to quickly and fully rack a slide to properly enable one round to be inserted into the chamber.

Any chance your adrenaline-filled body could short-pull the slide?

And then you're dead because you began fumbling with a gun with a malfunction.

So, assuming you "stick to your guns" , would you rather shoot yourself in the leg because you unholstered your weapon in a very wrong way, or.... As they say, choose your poison.

Cheers.
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:59   #134
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Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
I lead a staid, routine life and as a result I normally carry without a chambered round unless I travel to an unknown locale or known dangerous area.
I think you should carry the same way all the time (however you decide to carry) just for the sake of consistency.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
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Old 01-30-2013, 09:02   #135
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There are plenty of folks who are better off carrying with an empty chamber. If a person isn't sure whether they should or not, they don't need to carry with a round chambered.
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Old 01-30-2013, 09:06   #136
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I always keeps one in the chamber, in case you ponderin'.

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Old 01-30-2013, 09:10   #137
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One in the chamber is a lot better than two in the chamber.....

Last edited by bear62; 01-30-2013 at 09:23..
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Old 01-30-2013, 09:41   #138
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There are plenty of folks who are better off carrying with an empty chamber. If a person isn't sure whether they should or not, they don't need to carry with a round chambered.
Thank you, sir.
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:31   #139
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There are two consistent themes in this thread, and I wonder if they are as inextricably linked in real life as they are here, in a theoretical context. Most respondents say they carry C1. Many say training and diligent practice are necessary for safe C1 carry.

How many people who have answered C1 actually receive ongoing training and diligently practice gun handling techniques (drawing, presenting, reholstering, drills to develop trigger finger discipline, use of free hand to hold off an attacker, etc.)? How much time is consistently devoted to self defense preparation using your gun?

I ask these questions because it seems that concealed carry becomes a lifestyle for those who engage in it with a sincere commitment to excellence. That isn't bad, but it does represent a substantial dedication to skill development for an unlikely event. Or, it may be necessary preparation due to criminal activity in someone's neighborhood and/or work environment. Or, it could be a manifestation of one's tendency to be prepared for even low-risk situations. It could even be a commitment to an enjoyable discipline, like martial arts, that could have practical benefits. For those who are deeply committed to CC as a major aspect of daily life, I guess I'm also asking why you are motivated to adopt that lifestyle.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 01-30-2013 at 11:00..
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Old 01-30-2013, 10:58   #140
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Ultimately people have to make their own decisions based on their own set of circumstances which may be far different than mine.. All that being said-

with the exception of very old revolvers, I cannot image a circumstance where I would carry a hadgun without a round in the chamber.

Violence can happen quickly, without warning and in ways most cant even imagine.. I will not handicap myself by having to chamber a round. People talk about training.. I can train myself to quickly put on a seatbelt at the earliest sign of a traffic accident, but that plan doesnt seem prudent.
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:28   #141
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..i can train myself to quickly put on a seatbelt at the earliest sign of a traffic accident, but that plan doesnt seem prudent.
^^+1^^
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:32   #142
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Always +1. A gun that needs to be racked is only good for the movies. IV carried my glock many times and its never just gone off. Only time I didn't carry with one in the chamber was when I had a belt clip on it to use as a latenight take the dog out gun.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
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Old 01-30-2013, 12:15   #143
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Always +1. A gun that needs to be racked is only good for the movies. IV carried my glock many times and its never just gone off. Only time I didn't carry with one in the chamber was when I had a belt clip on it to use as a latenight take the dog out gun.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
I love the video on youtube where the guy racks the slide on his glock(unloaded of course), ties it to a rope and drags it behind his truck down a desert road for several miles.. all the while the glock is turning flips, bouncing, banging off of rocks and in the end, he picked it up and pulled the trigger... click! The striker was still in the correct position even after all that abuse.
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Old 01-30-2013, 13:08   #144
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Violence can happen quickly, without warning and in ways most cant even imagine.. I will not handicap myself by having to chamber a round.
You must live or work in an area where criminal attacks are a frequent occurrence. If attacks aren't frequent, they must happen often enough that you feel your safety is in jeopardy.

I highlight your comments because many, many bad things can happen any time, quickly and without warning, that we don't take special measures to avoid. Yet, many of us go to great lengths to carry a weapon every day for protection against attack that, in most places, is unlikely to happen.

I'm not being critical, because I admire disciplined individuals. I applaud folks who take up martial arts or fitness training, become a pilot or build beautiful wood furniture. I'm just trying to understand why people here devote themselves to self defense using a firearm; what's the real motivation?

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 01-30-2013 at 13:25..
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Old 01-30-2013, 15:13   #145
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Violence can happen quickly, without warning and in ways most cant even imagine.. I will not handicap myself by having to chamber a round.
Nowhere is this more evident than in Israel, where every soldier is required to carry C3. The chance that any single Israeli soldier will encounter a terrorists is small, and since the adoption of their carry method the incidents of ND/AD have been greatly reduced.

As I've posted so many times previously, I have assessed my personal circumstances, evaluated the many Glock Talk members' admissions to ND/AD incidents, and decided that since my chance of having a ND/AD is greater than facing a potential life-or-death situation (in which I will have no time to chamber a round) I've decided C3 is the better route for me.

And I might add, there's a whole lot more to preparedness than having a chambered round, as I'm sure all readers are aware.
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Old 01-30-2013, 15:44   #146
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Most people who first start carrying experience Cognitive Dissonance in regards to carrying one in the chamber; that is, you are performing an action that goes against your cultural conditioning. Mainstream western culture is to be overtly cautious around firearms, if not all out afraid. This is the conditioning you grew up in for 18+ years. The action of carrying a loaded firearm so close to your body completley goes against the cultural conditioning. It is a normal question when people first starting carrying, hence why it has been asked for years and years and years on this forum and every other one. The feeling is also normal.

In summation: you are feeling cognitive dissonance, it's normal, carry one in the chamber when you're ready, follow the four rules of gun safety.
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Old 01-30-2013, 16:06   #147
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
Several points I'd like to make in response to your very tactful (or was it sarcastic?) queery:

1. Given my age and lifestyle, the probability of being attacked is nearly 0.
2. Given my skill level, lack of recent training and infrequency of practice, I feel C3 with a Glock is safest for the people around me and for myself.
3. My CC techniques are less important than safety considerations.
4. My affinity for firearms makes CC a practice that is enjoyable in addition to providing a sense of security in some situations.

I hope this helps you understand why some of us carry C3 based upon our particular circumstances.

No sir, no sarcasm intended, Iím just baffled by your risk management strategy. But if it works for you Iíll let this dead horse RIP.
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Old 01-30-2013, 17:44   #148
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No sir, no sarcasm intended, Iím just baffled by your risk management strategy. But if it works for you Iíll let this dead horse RIP.
While I responded to your question, you have chosen not to answer mine about motivation for adopting concealed carry in C1 as a part of everyday life.

You mention being "baffled" by my "risk management" decisions even though I made it clear that my risk of attack is near 0. With such a low probability of attack, I have no motivation to devote more time, energy, training costs and range fees to become better prepared.

Since you opened the door by posing the question I responded to, please do me the courtesy of describing your motivation.

Thanks.

P.S. I strongly endorse professional training, firearm familiarization, gun handling and shooting practice, visualization of attack scenarios, continuous practice of situational awareness and development of other SD skills for anyone who has a real need to carry a firearm. I have engaged in all of these activities in years past, primarily because of my life-long fascination with guns. After 70+ years, I have never been attacked or even felt like I was in a truly dangerous situation.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 01-30-2013 at 18:55..
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Old 01-30-2013, 19:07   #149
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While I responded to your question, you have chosen not to answer mine about motivation for adopting concealed carry in C1 as a part of everyday life.

You mention being "baffled" by my "risk management" decisions even though I made it clear that my risk of attack is near 0. With such a low probability of attack, I have no motivation to devote more time, energy, training costs and range fees to become better prepared.

Since you opened the door by posing the question I responded to, please do me the courtesy of describing your motivation.

Thanks.

P.S. I strongly endorse professional training, firearm familiarization, gun handling and shooting practice, visualization of attack scenarios, continuous practice of situational awareness and development of other SD skills for anyone who has a real need to carry a firearm. I have engaged in all of these activities in years past, primarily because of my life-long fascination with guns. After 70+ years, I have never been attacked or even felt like I was in a truly dangerous situation.

The motivations for carrying in C1 have already been discussed in depth in previous posts, but since you insist I’ll give you my response.

My motivation is based on my past safety training and experience. I take precautions to manage risk based not on my estimation of the likelihood of a bad event occurring but on the seriousness of the consequences. Therefore I employ all of my PPE all of the time in a complete state of readiness even though the likelihood of it being necessary seems low. The consequences are just too serious to do otherwise.


On the other hand the C3 mindset seems to depend on the ability to accurately predict the unpredictable. You estimate the likely hood of being attacked as being near zero and the likely hood of an ND as being greater than near zero so you mitigate the risk of an ND by carrying a weapon that is for all practical purposes unloaded. Why burden yourself with a weapon at all?


In addition, while you can adopt certain strategies to reduce the risk of a criminal attack, when a criminal does select you as a victim, he has the initiative and you really have no control of the situation at that point. All of you options then become purely reactive until you can regain the initiative.


On the other hand preventing an ND is totally within you control and the risk is easily mitigated by developing a few simple safety habits.

So, I don’t understand the mindset of empty chamber carry. You manage the risk of an ND by keeping you weapon in a state of unreadiness that very likely makes it useless to prevent the very event you carry it for.


Again, I mean no disrespect, I just don’t get it. But that’s OK because really it’s none of my business.
Carry on and have a good day.

Last edited by NMOFT; 01-30-2013 at 19:10..
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Old 01-30-2013, 20:37   #150
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One in the chamber because you never know what kind of situation you may run into, whatever you choose you must practice, practice, practice. I have seen a product called the siderlock trigger it's a trigger safety for a glock that you may want to check into.

http://www.siderlock.com/
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