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Old 03-12-2013, 00:26   #761
"Cold Dead Hands" !
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Carrying a gun with a loaded chamber, is about as useful, as carrying a deluxe condom.
Its always there when you need it.
But, you still don't want to use it ?



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Old 03-12-2013, 00:59   #762
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I have studied Krav Maga & Shotokan for quite awhile now and can handle most "problems" that present themselves, but I still wouldn't carry my G21 with an empty chamber...It's just too light and too short to beat someone with, and I may not have both hands available to use to "rack the slide" effectively...And real-life isn't anything like the movies.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:32   #763
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Carry a G36 in a Raven vanguard holster. Its a minimallist holster. Not for everyone but it works for me, one in the tube and ready to roll. I like this holster b/c it covers the trigger and is like a kydex holster you have to pull to make it come out, it wont just slip out. I was raised around firearms and help instruct some classes with a buddy of mine, so I guess it wasnt much of a transition to carrying one concealed every day for me. Main this like it has been said and resaid is be comfortable and confident.
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Old 03-12-2013, 04:46   #764
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Originally Posted by vandros View Post
You, and many others advocating c1 so passionately ignore one fact: There are lots of people in our society carrying in c1 who should NOT be carrying in c1 (either due to lack of training, due to lack of self awareness that one is not very careful by nature, and due to other factors). Proof? Read all all the posts/threads on the unintentional discharges (the number of which is likely under-reported because most people who have had an ND/AD don't want to publicly admit it) posted by people carrying in c1. Also, there are many anecdotal observations of idiotic (or perhaps just brain-fart-related) behaviors on shooting ranges. These folks (i.e., carrying in c1 and who shouldn't be) endanger themselves, their families, and endanger me and my loved ones every single day. Why don't they switch to c3, you ask? No idea. Perhaps some of them live in bad neighborhoods, or somebody is directly threatening their lives. But perhaps for some of them some "expert" telling them that "real men" or "real pistoleros" carry in c1 has something to do with it...

How is this for some "cold and hard" truth? Think about it.

My advocacy for c3 is not about me trying to toot my horn and to say how I'm right and everyone else is wrong. I don't care about winning arguments at this stage in my life. I care about (1) gun-owning community, (2) our larger society, and (3) our 2nd amendment right. Many people carrying in c1 and who shouldn't be endanger all three. That, along with many, many other factors in favor of C3 discussed in this thread at least merit a careful consideration of C3 as a legitimate option for vast number (if not the majority) of gun owners.

Now, how do we go about determining who is carrying in c1 who shouldn't be? That's a hard question. Everyone confronting it will probably initially say: "Well, it's definitely not me. I'm definitely not someone who is carrying in c1 and who shouldn't be". It is VERY hard to admit to oneself that one probably shouldn't carry glocks in c1. But, this must be a something all of us should carefully consider, no matter how much it hurts our macho manly ego.



As a side note: I'm very skeptical about anyone saying: "I will NEVER have an unintentional discharge because I'm well trained, I never have brain freezes, I'm competent, I'm young and strong (or experienced and wise), I understand my weapon". HOW DO YOU KNOW? I mean how can you guarantee that there will never by any unintentional discharges with your c1-glocks every second of every day?! Have you ever looked at your watch and then couldn't tell what time it was? Have you ever had a "close call" while driving? I think many folks who had an unintentional discharge were pretty normal people: they weren't retards, they were probably also pretty well trained (e.g., current or ex police or military), and they also knew their weapon pretty well. In this situation, I think, erring on the side of safety is a prudent option. Given this ambiguity on who should and shouldn't carry in c1 and inability to guarantee no unintentional discharge from the objectively more dangerous c1-glock translates into carrying in c3, unless you absolutely must carry in c1.
And this is why I have stated time after time that how one wishes to carry is their choice and theirs alone. It is no one else's business how they choose to carry. They take the decision and they choose to live with it. Now tell me... how is that "advocating c1 so passionately" on my part? Did I miss something or did you?

Your post here seems to infer that there should be some sort of control over how people's carry condition should be in public. Some sort of minimum standard by which they need to meet or exceed before they can go C1. Who would set this? Who would check it and how? If I am wrong, please say so but it did come across that way. I would hope that would not be the case... that there has to be some mandatory minimum level of something before one is allowed to carry with a round in the chamber. Once again, just so there is no confusion here, it is my position that how one carries, what condition they prefer to employ, and even whether or not they carry at all is entirely a personal choice. All that matters to me is what I choose to do. I could care less what others do as long as they leave me alone.
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Old 03-12-2013, 04:59   #765
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Sorry that that stuff happened to you. You are correct in that a lot of martial arts schools are a joke. Most people do not know any better. You even proved your ignorance on the subject with the reference to Steven Seagal who was not much of a martial artist even in his prime. I have 12 years of Shaolin Hung Fut Kung Fu and full contact/boxing training. The right kind of training and mindset can help to keep bad things from happening to good people. All I can tell you is to put the time,pain,sweat, and money into learning how to better defend yourself. There are some good schools in your state. Not sure if this is close to you if you even have any interest at all, but this is a good school. http://www.clearwaterkungfu.com/schedule.html
Just trying to help as I think everyone who CCs a firearm should get some open hands training at the very least. You are right in that it will not make you invincible, but it may just save your life the next time. Football by the way is a poor example because they do not strike. I would not be grabbing and holding on to a person unless I absolutely had to. Striking would be a much better option in most cases. I do think football is a boring sport anyway. Good luck to you and stay safe.
Thanks for the link. Those attacks were 30+ years ago. My best defense is SA. That has worked well for me since. Some HTH training is always beneficial. Something I've never been good at. I was referring to the quarter back sack in football. The off hand out does nothing for them but they do it anyhow. And yes it is boring. I like NASCAR, the even more boring sport. I've never even heard of Shaolin Hung Fut Kung Fu. Can you say that around your ma? I have to go work in one of the Scientology buildings today. Talk about feeling trapped and threatened. Their paranoid security makes me paranoid. You be safe too.
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:11   #766
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Thanks for the link. Those attacks were 30+ years ago. My best defense is SA. That has worked well for me since. Some HTH training is always beneficial. Something I've never been good at. I was referring to the quarter back sack in football. The off hand out does nothing for them but they do it anyhow. And yes it is boring. I like NASCAR, the even more boring sport. I've never even heard of Shaolin Hung Fut Kung Fu. Can you say that around your ma? I have to go work in one of the Scientology buildings today. Talk about feeling trapped and threatened. Their paranoid security makes me paranoid. You be safe too.
Thanks. Watch out for Tom Cruise!

Here is a few links http://www.donniamstudio.com/
http://www.taiyimkungfu.com/Home.php

Last edited by 1911pro; 03-12-2013 at 05:16..
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Old 03-12-2013, 06:58   #767
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And this is why I have stated time after time that how one wishes to carry is their choice and theirs alone. It is no one else's business how they choose to carry. They take the decision and they choose to live with it. Now tell me... how is that "advocating c1 so passionately" on my part? Did I miss something or did you?

Your post here seems to infer that there should be some sort of control over how people's carry condition should be in public. Some sort of minimum standard by which they need to meet or exceed before they can go C1. Who would set this? Who would check it and how? If I am wrong, please say so but it did come across that way. I would hope that would not be the case... that there has to be some mandatory minimum level of something before one is allowed to carry with a round in the chamber. Once again, just so there is no confusion here, it is my position that how one carries, what condition they prefer to employ, and even whether or not they carry at all is entirely a personal choice. All that matters to me is what I choose to do. I could care less what others do as long as they leave me alone.
Sorry if I misunderstood your position. As for control, I think there should be informal high standards/expectations within the gun community itself promoting behaviors erring on the side of safety. Highly encouraging extensive training. Perhaps making such training affordable. Paying more attention to safety training, not just to marksmanship training. Expanding the list of the 4 basic safety rules. Being careful about what methods of carry we encourage new ccw permit holders to use. There are lots of things we can/should be doing voluntarily/informally as a gun communitiy. If we can do that, I think, we'll pull the rug from under the feet of the gun-control crowd.
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Old 03-12-2013, 07:47   #768
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Sorry if I misunderstood your position. As for control, I think there should be informal high standards/expectations within the gun community itself promoting behaviors erring on the side of safety. Highly encouraging extensive training. Perhaps making such training affordable. Paying more attention to safety training, not just to marksmanship training. Expanding the list of the 4 basic safety rules. Being careful about what methods of carry we encourage new ccw permit holders to use. There are lots of things we can/should be doing voluntarily/informally as a gun communitiy. If we can do that, I think, we'll pull the rug from under the feet of the gun-control crowd.
I have no problem whatsoever with encouraging people to get quality training, both in the safe handling of firearms, in their use, and in the laws in their respective states as regards the carrying of arms and the use of deadly force. I have written this many times and believe it to be more than a good thing. We in the gun culture do ourselves and the general public at large a service in following what I just wrote and conducting ourselves in a manner beyond reproach. While I am not really concerned whether or not the person next to or behind me in a line in a business is uncomfortable with my being armed, I firmly believe in and practice positive behavior when out in public; armed or not.

I have had people ask me all manner of questions when they see my sidearm (I carry openly most of the time) and only a few have posed them in a manner of someone being scared or leary of being in my presence. Nearly all were genuinely curious. A few asked "is that loaded" to which I tend to answer in a comical way to assuage their concerns.

Yes, we as people who keep and bear arms have a responsibility to do so in a positive light to project the image of responsible members of our respective communities. This serves our purposes and eases the public mind.
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:49   #769
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I've carried a G30, .45 calibur, chambered for almost 6 years and (knock on wood) it hasn't shot me yet. I use a Galco IWB holster, but I also have the composite OWB holster for it too. I'm more comfortable with the IWB, so that's my primary holster. When you draw the gun, train yourself to keep your trigger finger straight until the gun has cleared the holster and is pointed at your target. It's truly a very simple move. Plus...I have been taught by my instructor that if you have to complete more than 3 moves in a SHTF scenario, you will not be able to remember what to do and you will fail at protecting yourself and/or others. The key here is TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN. The more time you have training, the better your odds will be if you need to react to a real life ordeal. You can even train at home, just make sure to empty your gun, remove the magazine, clear the chamber, triple check that you have done all of these before pointing your gun at anything. I practiced by pointing at my TV while watching the news. I had an issue with "jerking" the trigger...I practiced for hours using a slow squeeze to avoid doing that. Practicing will help more than anything else....get in some range time!!!!
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:00   #770
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Originally Posted by Lady Glock View Post
I practiced by pointing at my TV while watching the news.
That's a great way to train--every time CBS/NBC/etc. puts out false information I'll practice my draw--I'd get pretty quick on the draw that way!

What kind of Galco holster you got? I use a Galco Summer Comfort for my G17...
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Old 03-12-2013, 13:16   #771
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Originally Posted by Lady Glock View Post
I've carried a G30, .45 calibur, chambered for almost 6 years and (knock on wood) it hasn't shot me yet. I use a Galco IWB holster, but I also have the composite OWB holster for it too. I'm more comfortable with the IWB, so that's my primary holster. When you draw the gun, train yourself to keep your trigger finger straight until the gun has cleared the holster and is pointed at your target. It's truly a very simple move. Plus...I have been taught by my instructor that if you have to complete more than 3 moves in a SHTF scenario, you will not be able to remember what to do and you will fail at protecting yourself and/or others. The key here is TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN. The more time you have training, the better your odds will be if you need to react to a real life ordeal. You can even train at home, just make sure to empty your gun, remove the magazine, clear the chamber, triple check that you have done all of these before pointing your gun at anything. I practiced by pointing at my TV while watching the news. I had an issue with "jerking" the trigger...I practiced for hours using a slow squeeze to avoid doing that. Practicing will help more than anything else....get in some range time!!!!
I totally agree with your comments and their emphasis on training and practice, especially when it comes to the act of reholstering. The disciplined safety steps you describe are essential for handling all firearms.

We always talk about trigger finger discipline as a key to safe handling of a Glock, but its actually a key principle for safety with any firearm. However, the trigger finger safety isn't perfect; at least one study has shown that under stress, our brain often subconsciously seeks confirmation that the trigger is there, ready for instant access by having the trigger finger enter the guard and touch the trigger. This tactile confirmation is a natural, subconscious act. Depending on how frightened we are and where during presentation the trigger is touched, an unintentional discharge may occur. Of course this can happen with any firearm not equipped with a safety, or a gun with the safety disengaged.

The important point about the subconscious 'trigger touch' is that the brain can be conditioned through training to provide skills covering most aspects of firearm SD tactics, but there are conditions when the brain behaves as a 'free agent'; it applies its own "fight or flight" instincts on our behalf. This is just another example of the fact we are subject to behavioral unpredictability simply because we are human.

Training, practice, mind management exercises are extremely important to SD preparedness and firearm safety. In the end, however, we are still subject to the vagaries of human behavior.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 03-12-2013 at 18:29..
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Old 03-12-2013, 13:19   #772
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Originally Posted by Zeebra724 View Post
That's a great way to train--every time CBS/NBC/etc. puts out false information I'll practice my draw--I'd get pretty quick on the draw that way!

What kind of Galco holster you got? I use a Galco Summer Comfort for my G17...
Just make sure to unload first, otherwise you may not have the use of the TV for other, more worthy programs!

I use the USA ULTIMATE SECOND AMENDMENT by Galco. It is super comfortable and I love how easy the gun comes out of it and is reholstered. As long as I have pants that don't have a stretch waistband, I'm good to go. I recently had back surgery and have been wearing a more "sweatpant" option and the waistband doesn't support the weight of the G30, so I have just had to set it beside me in the car and lock it up when I get out. I love the J-Frame hook because I don't always have the belt to hold the holster like the summer comfort would require. Galco makes good holsters, no matter what you are looking for!
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Old 03-12-2013, 13:27   #773
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Lady_Glock: Hope your back heals up quickly...stay safe!
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Old 03-12-2013, 13:37   #774
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Lady_Glock: Hope your back heals up quickly...stay safe!
Thank you very much.
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Old 03-12-2013, 13:41   #775
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I always have a round in the chamber because I understand that my pistol hand may be the only one free when I need it. If I have to draw, I want to be able to shoot in the same motion. Unless someone is ADD I can't imagine leaving an empty chamber that must be filled before I can protect myself or loved ones.
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Old 03-12-2013, 14:19   #776
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I always have a round in the chamber because I understand that my pistol hand may be the only one free when I need it. If I have to draw, I want to be able to shoot in the same motion. Unless someone is ADD I can't imagine leaving an empty chamber that must be filled before I can protect myself or loved ones.
I agree...well said!
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Old 03-12-2013, 14:40   #777
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I've carried a G30, .45 calibur, chambered for almost 6 years and (knock on wood) it hasn't shot me yet. I use a Galco IWB holster, but I also have the composite OWB holster for it too. I'm more comfortable with the IWB, so that's my primary holster. When you draw the gun, train yourself to keep your trigger finger straight until the gun has cleared the holster and is pointed at your target. It's truly a very simple move. Plus...I have been taught by my instructor that if you have to complete more than 3 moves in a SHTF scenario, you will not be able to remember what to do and you will fail at protecting yourself and/or others. The key here is TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN. The more time you have training, the better your odds will be if you need to react to a real life ordeal. You can even train at home, just make sure to empty your gun, remove the magazine, clear the chamber, triple check that you have done all of these before pointing your gun at anything. I practiced by pointing at my TV while watching the news. I had an issue with "jerking" the trigger...I practiced for hours using a slow squeeze to avoid doing that. Practicing will help more than anything else....get in some range time!!!!
I keep a spare unloaded magazine in my study just for home training and trigger discipline. It sits in a belt mag carrier and serves my purposes as you spoke of here. Training teaches many things; improving accuracy, point shooting, followup shots, quick reloads from dry to tactical, and a host of other things. Perhaps the best thing to come out of training is muscle memory (for lack of a better term). That ability to do what you have trained for without having to think about it and to do it quickly. You can't read that in a book or watch it on a video... you have to do it many, many times.

Good post.


BTW, I am having back surgery in two weeks. I have lumbar spinal stenosis and am getting the MILD procedure done. Can't wait because the pain is excruciating.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:50   #778
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I keep a spare unloaded magazine in my study just for home training and trigger discipline. It sits in a belt mag carrier and serves my purposes as you spoke of here. Training teaches many things; improving accuracy, point shooting, followup shots, quick reloads from dry to tactical, and a host of other things. Perhaps the best thing to come out of training is muscle memory (for lack of a better term). That ability to do what you have trained for without having to think about it and to do it quickly. You can't read that in a book or watch it on a video... you have to do it many, many times.

Good post.


BTW, I am having back surgery in two weeks. I have lumbar spinal stenosis and am getting the MILD procedure done. Can't wait because the pain is excruciating.
Best of luck to you with the surgery. Mine was a remove, replace with a spacer and fuse at L5/S1...November surgery, pain is still horrible! I had 4 different shots before they finally agreed the surgery was the only chance for improvement.
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Old 03-13-2013, 18:56   #779
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Posted purely for reference material:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showpost...6&postcount=75

Quote:
I have often given my story as an example of how ANYONE can have an accident with a gun, no matter how expert you are with them.
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Old 03-13-2013, 19:28   #780
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One in the chamber for sure. In the right holster of course.

That one time you may need it, that chambered round could save your life, or a loved one. Don't risk that.
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