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Old 03-08-2013, 20:38   #681
Tazz10m
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Btw, vandros, if you haven't done it yet, why don't you come over and join us in "The 10 Ring" 10mm club here at GT? You're obviously smart enough to pick the right caliber.
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Old 03-08-2013, 20:58   #682
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Originally Posted by Tazz10m View Post
Btw, vandros, if you haven't done it yet, why don't you come over and join us in "The 10 Ring" 10mm club here at GT? You're obviously smart enough to pick the right caliber.
10mm = .40 caliber.

.73 caliber 500 grain hollow point projectiles moving at > 1500 fps put all the 10mm fanboys to shame.

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Old 03-08-2013, 22:09   #683
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This post, with a some editing for shortening it a bit, came from another forum today from a guy who is regarded by many as a SD pro of high order:

"I pull the trigger and BANG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Rifle goes off, pointed at the floor, of course. Dings the carpet and concrete under it, disintegrates and leaves little shrapnel etchings on the wall. No one was in the shop at the time, the boy was well clear of the muzzle, of course.

The brain fade didn't do any real damage, but the potential for major problems is always present in situations like this. I've handled firearms for near 45 years, a lot of them with lots of professional training in them as well.

Never let your mind wander and be distracted when handling your firearms. My auto pilot muscle memory was great, gun always pointed in a safe direction. My muscle memory in operating an ar was great as well.

What was NOT great was my brainfading and being distracted while physically on auto pilot. This makes 3 ND's in 45 years with about 1 million rounds downrange in that time from all manner of firearms. The first with a rifle, the other two were pistols...

Ya, ya, I know, dumb arse mistake, but I shared it with members for a reason. It's a lesson someone may remember reading and not make the same mistake. I'm not embarrassed to post I screwed the pooch royally on this one. It's a lesson I didn't have to pay for dearly, and that brain fade could have been quite costly in human and property damage."

For the record, this guy is a proponent of C1 with lots of training.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 03-09-2013 at 01:27..
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Old 03-09-2013, 00:17   #684
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
10mm = .40 caliber.

.73 caliber 500 grain hollow point projectiles moving at > 1500 fps put all the 10mm fanboys to shame.

Blasting Watermelon 12 Gauge Shotgun Slug - Slow Motion Too - YouTube
I agree...A 12-gauge 3" magnum "hollowpoint" slug fired from a shotgun makes a 10mm look like a girlie round, but how easy is it to carry a 12-gauge shotgun around with you?
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Old 03-09-2013, 02:15   #685
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Originally Posted by Tazz10m View Post
I said; "Yes, more than once." to all of those questions, not just some of them.

I have never insulted you. You only think i have.

This shows you have problems with "reading comprehension".

You say i've called you "dumb". I have not. Doing something dumb does not make a person dumb. Smart people do dumb things all the time.

You think your situation is different only because you don't know any better. That doesn't mean you are dumb or stupid, it just means you haven't done your homework and you, like many others, don't have the experience that brings about awareness of the situation we are all in.

I don't have to know you at all. I know criminals and bad, evil people, and what they think, how they think, what they do, and how they do it, and that is enough.

Don't take what i say as an insult. Take it as me trying to wake you, and others like you, up.

You say; "For "our" circumstances an unintentional discharge is much more likely than any of the situations you mentioned."

If that is the case, you have no business carrying a gun... not yet... you are not ready.

I'm not trying to talk down to you. I'm seriously trying to save your life.

You answered "No" to all the 10 questions. That tells me that you have absolutely no experience whatsoever.

I don't care if you or anybody else agrees with me or not. I could care less.

Reality is what it is, whether any of us likes it, agrees with it, recognizes it, or not.

Reality ALWAYS takes precedence.

I appreciate the fact that you and others are trying your best to learn and to protect yourselves and your families the safest ways possible. I appreciate that sometimes it's best for a person to carry a gun even if they have no real understanding of how to use it... BUT, you still have a responsibility to learn how to use it as quickly as possible. IT'S A GUN. And, part of learning about this subject is learning to tough it out and listen to people like me who "tell you how it is". Sorry, in a "yack site" i not going to "write the complete back story" (which would amount to a book) behind what i say when i say something like "No, DON'T do it!". And i'm not going to sugar coat it and serve it up on your favorite plate with your favorite fork. I'm going to hand it to you, and you can take it or leave it.

The Paper Chase (1973) - YouTube
Well stated, but considering who you were responding to and the others like him, it was a complete waste of your time. It is about as productive as talking to a rock.

I am reminded of the old adage; "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

I will not waste my time trying to convince the proverbial "rock" of the error of its ways, some people only learn "the hard way."

RJ

Last edited by RJ's Guns; 03-09-2013 at 02:16..
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Old 03-09-2013, 06:41   #686
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Photofeller, I've found your posts to be very interesting and informative. Not only of your views but others who truly believe they're incapable of making a mistake. It took me a while to become comfortable carrying my Glock C1 (C0 in my opinion). But I'm fully aware even though I'm not an accident prone kind of guy, I'm perfectly capable of having a brain fart at some point. One of the points our CC instructor emphasized was, don't practice pulling the trigger unless you're at the range with live fire. That way you won't have an "auto pilot" trigger pull AD like you had. I haven't perfected walking on water like some here have but, so far no AD.
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Old 03-09-2013, 06:56   #687
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
This post, with a some editing for shortening it a bit, came from another forum today from a guy who is regarded by many as a SD pro of high order:

"I pull the trigger and BANG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Rifle goes off, pointed at the floor, of course. Dings the carpet and concrete under it, disintegrates and leaves little shrapnel etchings on the wall. No one was in the shop at the time, the boy was well clear of the muzzle, of course.

The brain fade didn't do any real damage, but the potential for major problems is always present in situations like this. I've handled firearms for near 45 years, a lot of them with lots of professional training in them as well.

Never let your mind wander and be distracted when handling your firearms. My auto pilot muscle memory was great, gun always pointed in a safe direction. My muscle memory in operating an ar was great as well.

What was NOT great was my brainfading and being distracted while physically on auto pilot. This makes 3 ND's in 45 years with about 1 million rounds downrange in that time from all manner of firearms. The first with a rifle, the other two were pistols...

Ya, ya, I know, dumb arse mistake, but I shared it with members for a reason. It's a lesson someone may remember reading and not make the same mistake. I'm not embarrassed to post I screwed the pooch royally on this one. It's a lesson I didn't have to pay for dearly, and that brain fade could have been quite costly in human and property damage."

For the record, this guy is a proponent of C1 with lots of training.
Big deal one guy who no one knows because you give no name. Fact is there are way more people who go through there life with no NDs. Yes it can happen from being careless. Find all the examples of careless people and form a group, take them to washington and rally against carrying with a round in the camber. Tell them" we are the careless people and all must be like us. Please save the people!" Maybe you and obama can have lunch, play golf then they will make you a Czar for gun safety. You could do a photo shoot with biden and his double barrel ****gun surrounded by kids. Whatever....

Last edited by 1911pro; 03-09-2013 at 06:57..
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Old 03-09-2013, 07:08   #688
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Originally Posted by SevenSixtyTwo View Post
Photofeller, I've found your posts to be very interesting and informative. Not only of your views but others who truly believe they're incapable of making a mistake. It took me a while to become comfortable carrying my Glock C1 (C0 in my opinion). But I'm fully aware even though I'm not an accident prone kind of guy, I'm perfectly capable of having a brain fart at some point. One of the points our CC instructor emphasized was, don't practice pulling the trigger unless you're at the range with live fire. That way you won't have an "auto pilot" trigger pull AD like you had. I haven't perfected walking on water like some here have but, so far no AD.
Really? Did he tell you to only strip it down at the range also? I mean you do have to pull the trigger by Glocks design. Dry firing is an important training aid to help you sqeeze the trigger instead of jerk it. Trigger pull will make or brake your accuracy. It can be done safely at home. Do you have any safe direction in your home? Can you take the mag out of your gun and check the chamber a few times before you start practice. It is really not as hard as some here are making it.

Last edited by 1911pro; 03-09-2013 at 07:13..
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Old 03-09-2013, 07:15   #689
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Originally Posted by Tazz10m View Post
I said; "Yes, more than once." to all of those questions, not just some of them.

I have never insulted you. You only think i have.

This shows you have problems with "reading comprehension".

You say i've called you "dumb". I have not. Doing something dumb does not make a person dumb. Smart people do dumb things all the time.

You think your situation is different only because you don't know any better. That doesn't mean you are dumb or stupid, it just means you haven't done your homework and you, like many others, don't have the experience that brings about awareness of the situation we are all in.

I don't have to know you at all. I know criminals and bad, evil people, and what they think, how they think, what they do, and how they do it, and that is enough.

Don't take what i say as an insult. Take it as me trying to wake you, and others like you, up.

You say; "For "our" circumstances an unintentional discharge is much more likely than any of the situations you mentioned."

If that is the case, you have no business carrying a gun... not yet... you are not ready.

I'm not trying to talk down to you. I'm seriously trying to save your life.

You answered "No" to all the 10 questions. That tells me that you have absolutely no experience whatsoever.

I don't care if you or anybody else agrees with me or not. I could care less.

Reality is what it is, whether any of us likes it, agrees with it, recognizes it, or not.

Reality ALWAYS takes precedence.

I appreciate the fact that you and others are trying your best to learn and to protect yourselves and your families the safest ways possible. I appreciate that sometimes it's best for a person to carry a gun even if they have no real understanding of how to use it... BUT, you still have a responsibility to learn how to use it as quickly as possible. IT'S A GUN. And, part of learning about this subject is learning to tough it out and listen to people like me who "tell you how it is". Sorry, in a "yack site" i not going to "write the complete back story" (which would amount to a book) behind what i say when i say something like "No, DON'T do it!". And i'm not going to sugar coat it and serve it up on your favorite plate with your favorite fork. I'm going to hand it to you, and you can take it or leave it.

The Paper Chase (1973) - YouTube
Good stuff!
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Old 03-09-2013, 08:20   #690
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Originally Posted by 1911pro View Post
Really? Did he tell you to only strip it down at the range also? I mean you do have to pull the trigger by Glocks design. Dry firing is an important training aid to help you sqeeze the trigger instead of jerk it. Trigger pull will make or brake your accuracy. It can be done safely at home. Do you have any safe direction in your home? Can you take the mag out of your gun and check the chamber a few times before you start practice. It is really not as hard as some here are making it.
No, why would you even think that? Yes you have to pull the trigger to fire on any gun. I get plenty of trigger practice at the range. We all should. I don't jerk the trigger. Accuracy is great with my G26 and long guns. Sure it can be done safely at home. It's my opinion it can also form unsafe habits. It's perfectly ok with me if you feel otherwise. Really, it is. Lots of safe directions at home. Yes I can remove the mag and empty the chamber, checking it redundantly. No, it's not hard at all.
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Old 03-09-2013, 08:55   #691
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Originally Posted by Tazz10m View Post
Btw, vandros, if you haven't done it yet, why don't you come over and join us in "The 10 Ring" 10mm club here at GT? You're obviously smart enough to pick the right caliber.
That's the part I don't get. People would go thru all this argument for their position, only to spew 9mm which can get a lot of big guys simply mad. If you want to get the job done, then CCW something that can get it done quickly.

Tazz, you seem to live in a world where even an ND can be so sanitizing. I'd C1 in that world, too.

Last edited by ModGlock17; 03-09-2013 at 09:01..
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Old 03-09-2013, 08:58   #692
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Originally Posted by RJ's Guns View Post
Well stated, but considering who you were responding to and the others like him, it was a complete waste of your time. It is about as productive as talking to a rock.

I am reminded of the old adage; "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

I will not waste my time trying to convince the proverbial "rock" of the error of its ways, some people only learn "the hard way."

RJ
My sentiment exactly - I'm done wasting time talking to proverbial rocks (people like you) about dangers of unintentional discharges and about everyone's circumstances being different.
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Last edited by vandros; 03-09-2013 at 08:59..
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Old 03-09-2013, 09:02   #693
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No, why would you even think that? Yes you have to pull the trigger to fire on any gun. I get plenty of trigger practice at the range. We all should. I don't jerk the trigger. Accuracy is great with my G26 and long guns. Sure it can be done safely at home. It's my opinion it can also form unsafe habits. It's perfectly ok with me if you feel otherwise. Really, it is. Lots of safe directions at home. Yes I can remove the mag and empty the chamber, checking it redundantly. No, it's not hard at all.
Because you stated your CC instructor said not to dry fire at home. I was asking if you pull the trigger at home when you take the slide off of your G26 to disassemble it for cleaning? If you can find a safe direction to check the pistol and
pull the trigger then you can do the same thing to dry fire at home. You say you get plenty of practice at the range and do not need dry firing practice because you do not jerk the trigger. That is cool and you are a better man than me. I need to practice it at home.
What training drills from the holster do you run against the shot timer and at what distance?

Last edited by 1911pro; 03-09-2013 at 09:05..
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Old 03-09-2013, 09:07   #694
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My sentiment exactly - I'm done wasting time talking to proverbial rocks (people like you) about dangers of unintentional discharges and about everyone's circumstances being different.
+1

It's basic insecurity that causes one to relentlessly try to convince and seek another's approval of ones own position.
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Old 03-09-2013, 09:37   #695
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Originally Posted by Tazz10m View Post
I said; "Yes, more than once." to all of those questions, not just some of them.

I have never insulted you. You only think i have.

This shows you have problems with "reading comprehension".

You say i've called you "dumb". I have not. Doing something dumb does not make a person dumb. Smart people do dumb things all the time.

You think your situation is different only because you don't know any better. That doesn't mean you are dumb or stupid, it just means you haven't done your homework and you, like many others, don't have the experience that brings about awareness of the situation we are all in.

I don't have to know you at all. I know criminals and bad, evil people, and what they think, how they think, what they do, and how they do it, and that is enough.

Don't take what i say as an insult. Take it as me trying to wake you, and others like you, up.

You say; "For "our" circumstances an unintentional discharge is much more likely than any of the situations you mentioned."

If that is the case, you have no business carrying a gun... not yet... you are not ready.

I'm not trying to talk down to you. I'm seriously trying to save your life.

You answered "No" to all the 10 questions. That tells me that you have absolutely no experience whatsoever.

I don't care if you or anybody else agrees with me or not. I could care less.

Reality is what it is, whether any of us likes it, agrees with it, recognizes it, or not.

Reality ALWAYS takes precedence.

I appreciate the fact that you and others are trying your best to learn and to protect yourselves and your families the safest ways possible. I appreciate that sometimes it's best for a person to carry a gun even if they have no real understanding of how to use it... BUT, you still have a responsibility to learn how to use it as quickly as possible. IT'S A GUN. And, part of learning about this subject is learning to tough it out and listen to people like me who "tell you how it is". Sorry, in a "yack site" i not going to "write the complete back story" (which would amount to a book) behind what i say when i say something like "No, DON'T do it!". And i'm not going to sugar coat it and serve it up on your favorite plate with your favorite fork. I'm going to hand it to you, and you can take it or leave it.

The Paper Chase (1973) - YouTube
I think you are sincere in your desire to save my life and other forum members' lives. I really appreciate that! BTW, that's one reason I've been engaged in this discussion so intensively - I'm also trying to help prevent people from badly hurting themselves or others (and from giving gun-community bad name) thru unintentional discharges.

On the issue of what reality is - we'll never agree. That issue has been addressed in this thread over and over, so I don't want to keep debating this. You think you are right, and I'm wrong on this. I think we are both right given the different environments and experiences we've had.

Regarding insults, saying one deserves Darwin award is the same as calling somebody dumb. You know it, I know it. Here's a test for online forum discussions I go by: If you think it's disrespectful to say something to a person face-to-face, don't say it online. Unless, of course your only goal is to make yourself feel good at the expense of others and you do not care about the online community where you make these remarks (I don't think either of these apply to you). We all can be sarcastic and insulting and immature and impulsive. Too much of online discussion is replete with this crap. Does it do anybody any good, other than allowing poster let off steam and feel good about himself? No.

Many of the issues you raise in your latest reply have already been addressed in this thread at length. I don't want to fill this thread with redundant info. So, no disrespect, but I don't want to rehash old arguments.

I thought by declaring my love for 10mm I'm automatically a member of the "ring"
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:21   #696
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Let's try to keep this valuable thread on an even keel.

Here's a good article laying the groundwork for C3 as a carry method, and
another that visually makes the case.

Let me stipulate a few things I have previously as well as mention a couple I've not.

1. I concede that carrying C1 allows greater leeway in time as well as removing a step in presentation.
2. I currently normally carry C3 because of my personal circumstances, not because I'm an advocate for any particular method.
3. ND/AD incidents can and do happen to seasoned experts as well as complete novices.

Add to this these two condiderations:

1. Racking a slide is a gross motor function, much easier to perform (I've read) under extreme duress compared to a relatively fine motor skill such as remembering to click the manual safety to the "off" position when drawing a weapon. Can carrying C3 result in getting the defender killed? Sure, so can fumbling with a manual safety.

2. My one real concern with the Israeli Method is in presentation of the weapon. That is, since the weak hand is racking the slide and not coming up naturally to support the two-handed grip there's a break in the smooth presentation. That's another concession I will cede to those who favor C1. Nevertheless, again given my circumstances it doesn't sway me yet from C3.

PS: If the first link doesn't work click on this site: http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.c...ry-or-why.html
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:52   #697
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Let's try to keep this valuable thread on an even keel.

Here's a good article laying the groundwork for C3 as a carry method, and here's another that visually makes the case.

Let me stipulate a few things I have previously as well as mention a couple I've not.

1. I concede that carrying C1 allows greater leeway in time as well as removing a step in presentation.
2. I currently normally carry C3 because of my personal circumstances, not because I'm an advocate for any particular method.
3. ND/AD incidents can and do happen to seasoned experts as well as complete novices.

Add to this these two condiderations:

1. Racking a slide is a gross motor function, much easier to perform (I've read) under extreme duress compared to a relatively fine motor skill such as remembering to click the manual safety to the "off" position when drawing a weapon. Can carrying C3 result in getting the defender killed? Sure, so can fumbling with a manual safety.

2. My one real concern with the Israeli Method is in presentation of the weapon. That is, since the weak hand is racking the slide and not coming up naturally to support the two-handed grip there's a break in the smooth presentation. That's another concession I will cede to those who favor C1. Nevertheless, again given my circumstances it doesn't sway me yet from C3.

PS: If the first link doesn't work click on this site: http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.c...ry-or-why.html
The whole problem is you can click a safety off with the same hand holding the pistol. You have to bring the other hand over to rack the slide. If your hand is slippery with sweet,blood or dirt you may not rack the slide all the way back or slow its force under stress causing a failure to feed. What is your supporting hand is grabbed by someone? What then? Are you going to rack your slide off of your belt under stress when a bad guy has hold of you? It is real nice how they square the guy up both legs even so that he can make a larger target for the bullets and have trouble moving. You should have a fighting stance feet shoulder width apart, knees bent ,same leg forward as your pistol hand. Move on the balls of your feet. His stance makes no sense at all other than being solid. I would like to see it run against a timer. 1911 safety against racking the slide with your average shooter. Bet the safety wins.

This is a good take on the second article.
http://pistol-training.com/archives/183

Last edited by 1911pro; 03-09-2013 at 11:12..
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:25   #698
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The whole problem is ...
Did you read the first article or only watch the video?
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:31   #699
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Did you read the first article or only watch the video?
Watched the video and then read the article. My reply was geared toward the video. The link I posted is for your second article link.

Last edited by 1911pro; 03-09-2013 at 11:31..
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:32   #700
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Because you stated your CC instructor said not to dry fire at home. I was asking if you pull the trigger at home when you take the slide off of your G26 to disassemble it for cleaning? If you can find a safe direction to check the pistol and
pull the trigger then you can do the same thing to dry fire at home. You say you get plenty of practice at the range and do not need dry firing practice because you do not jerk the trigger. That is cool and you are a better man than me. I need to practice it at home.
What training drills from the holster do you run against the shot timer and at what distance?
Please quote where I said that. Yes I pull the trigger on all of our Glocks to take the slide off. There's a difference between taking the gun apart for servicing and making a habit of dry firing for practice. But, like I said, it's perfectly ok with me if you have a different opinion. It's my opinion that it's setting up the scenario for an AD. Therefor, "I" don't do it. Thanks but I don't know you from Adam, therefor I don't know if I'm a better man than anyone here. Nor do I know what your definition of a better man is. Seems like conjecture to me. I practice for SA and proficiency. Speed isn't my strong point in anything I do. Even shotgun course competitions leave me grouped with the slow guys.
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