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Old 03-08-2013, 09:05   #661
unit1069
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
Having read all of your posts throughout this thread, it seems to me that if anyone would be careful enough to carry C1 it would be you. I cannot imagine you handling a firearm carelessly.
That's the same thing I thought reading Photo's posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
I am safe to a fault, but I had an ND anyway. One. In my home. My wife and son were in the house, but nobody was hurt. I know it can happen.
Like I mentioned on page 5 when I posted Jan. 29th, the reason I gravitated to C3 in my normal carry routine is that there are too many experienced shooters who have suffered a ND for me to ignore.

Quote:
I have read far more anecdotes by Glock Talk members about their ND/AD experiences than I have about their involvements in actual shootouts so I've decided to err on the side of caution in my normal routine.
Yes, there are too many careless gun owners out there, but so many of the GT members who have shared their experiences strike me as conscientious people, not cowboys. I'm sure I'd react the same way as Photo if I suffered an ND; it would be a traumatic incident.
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:07   #662
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ezthumper View Post
Whoa whoa hold on there Cochise, I resemble that remark.

I am bit older than numbnuts, but hey, lets not get all paint brush with the assumptions.

I gleam new things from folks like yourself and others. and am amazed on how much things change and the different mindsets that lead you into other things. (and that is after years and years of training and learning, about 40 years so far)

Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. Anyone who keeps learning stays young. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young. Henry Ford


Oh yeah, I carry C1, period.
No offense meant. I have learned a lot from people older than me. The saying" you cannot teach an old dog new tricks" came about for a reason. I wish all people young and older would think like you do.
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:08   #663
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Brain farts happen, even to the most clever and experienced people. If you don't have sufficient confidence in your skill to rack a slide at crunch time in a gun with a light trigger then carry one in the pipe; I won't.
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:45   #664
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911pro View Post
No offense meant. I have learned a lot from people older than me. The saying" you cannot teach an old dog new tricks" came about for a reason. I wish all people young and older would think like you do.
None taken, I was messing with you a bit more than anything else.

There are a lot of us "older dogs" (which I do not consider my self even close to that) that quest for new information every day.

The ones that sit thinking the knowledge they contain is the end all be all, or wait for someone else to jump through fiery rings to justify an argument(lazy elitists) are the ones that fall by the way side because they are left behind or just fall over due to Darwin's divine intervention.
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:51   #665
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To add some levity to this "serious" discussion, if you don't want to carry C1 you can carry C3--or use the method this lady did if you can't rack your slide in time...
http://autos.aol.com/article/woman-b...%22article%22}
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Old 03-08-2013, 13:35   #666
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Originally Posted by 1911pro View Post
Just because you failed does not mean that the rest of us who are responsible gun owners who practice proper gun safety should have to justify our needs or prove our abilities to you.
Take from my posts what you want, or discard all of it.

I responded to your request to explain my ND knowing you would reply as you have.

All of this talk by me is done with good intentions, one of which is to get folks to stop generalizing that C1 with a Glock is right for everyone; lots of people with little or no experience with guns and/or CC come here for good advice about carrying a Glock. I also think its important for people to decide rationally and thoughtfully why they carry a chambered pistol that doesn't have a safety instead of doing it because its popular on the Internet. Lastly, I hope at least a few people come to realize that as disciplined and well trained as they may be, humans do screw up.

As for you, Mr. 1911pro, I'll put my old mind up against yours any day of the week. I've discovered you actually consider yourself a "pro" with guns, and you may well be. Over the years I've learned that folks who get "too big for their britches" come down the hardest when they do make a mistake. You may not be quite as good as you think.

For all others who have endured my challenges and lectures and stubbornness, I hope I haven't offended you. I also hope at least one person has decided to spend extra time thinking about how vulnerable we are to human error.

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Old 03-08-2013, 14:27   #667
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
Take from my posts what you want, or discard all of it.

I responded to your request to explain my ND knowing you would reply as you have.

All of this talk by me is done with good intentions, one of which is to get folks to stop generalizing that C1 with a Glock is right for everyone; lots of people with little or no experience with guns and/or CC come here for good advice about carrying a Glock. I also think its important for people to decide rationally and thoughtfully why they carry a chambered pistol that doesn't have a safety instead of doing it because its popular on the Internet. Lastly, I hope at least a few people come to realize that as disciplined and well trained as they may be, humans do screw up.

As for you, Mr. 1911pro, I'll put my old mind up against yours any day of the week. I've discovered you actually consider yourself a "pro" with guns, and you may well be. Over the years I've learned that folks who get "too big for their britches" come down the hardest when they do make a mistake.

For all others who have endured my challenges and lectures and stubbornness, I hope I haven't offended you. I also hope at least one person has decided to spend extra time thinking about how vulnerable we are to human error.
Ah yes. You know best that all will fail because you could not succeed. You must embark on a quest to inform all of their inevitable demise from carrying with a round in the chamber. Sing it from the roof tops. You are right because you refused to listen and comprehend.
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Old 03-08-2013, 14:38   #668
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As much as it goes against my position, members on this forum should see Mas Ayoob's take on this (reposted from his reply to my question on his forum):

==========
Personally, I could only see myself carrying chamber empty if I was stuck with a pistol that wasn't drop-safe, or had to carry a striker-fired point-and-shoot design without a holster.

I've seen so many cases over the years where there was only time to draw and fire, often with only one hand, that I would feel unnecessarily handicapped without a round in the chamber.

Someone uncomfortable with a Glock having a round chambered might be more confident in a hammer-fired pistol with long double action pull and/or manual safety, or with a double action revolver.

There are lots of factors to consider, and different folks have different comfort levels, which is why that topic always seems to generate long discussions.

Cordially,
Mas
==========
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Old 03-08-2013, 15:11   #669
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Originally Posted by 1911pro View Post
Ah yes. You know best that all will fail because you could not succeed. You must embark on a quest to inform all of their inevitable demise from carrying with a round in the chamber. Sing it from the roof tops. You are right because you refused to listen and comprehend.
Believe it or not I listen, read and comprehend pretty well for an old dog. Furthermore, I'm willing to wager that you and almost everyone else who has tuned in to this thread will "succeed" by owning and using firearms for a lifetime without incident.

Maybe I am on a quest to remind people that (1) a Glock in C1 may be bad advice for someone new to handguns and (2) NDs can happen to people who least expect it [because they believe they are doing everything right]. If someone out there listened to and comprehended those simple points, my "quest" has been fulfilled. My failure and my personal disappointment surely has to have some useful purpose.

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Old 03-08-2013, 16:07   #670
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Thanks for asking Mas his opinion, vandros.

Quote:
Personally, I could only see myself carrying chamber empty if I was stuck with a pistol that wasn't drop-safe, or had to carry a striker-fired point-and-shoot design without a holster. I've seen so many cases over the years where there was only time to draw and fire, often with only one hand, that I would feel unnecessarily handicapped without a round in the chamber.
Why wouldn't Mas's personal carry habits differ from mine?
He's got decades of police officer experience, decades of investigating crime scenes/incidents, decades of weapons expertise, decades of martial arts expertise, etc ... and I don't. His LEO and other career pursuits take him into dangerous areas and/or scenes of gruesome crimes, as well as his interactions with countless experienced LEO and other experts like him. I have none of that experience.


Quote:
Someone uncomfortable with a Glock having a round chambered might be more confident in a hammer-fired pistol with long double action pull and/or manual safety, or with a double action revolver.
I am not uncomfortable with my Glock; I'm uncomfortable knowing that there are conscientious, experienced gun owners from many walks of life who for one reason or another have experienced a ND/AD. As mentioned so many times before, my life operating for the most part in secure (so far) environments has caused me to recognize there's nothing special about me that would immunize my having a similar, traumatic experience. And as previously mentioned, I really like my no-safety, striker-fired pistols; but agree with Mas that someone who fears carrying one "hot" due to the lack of a manual safety should consider a handgun with a different system.

Quote:
There are lots of factors to consider, and different folks have different comfort levels, which is why that topic always seems to generate long discussions.
Earlier this week I wrote:

Quote:
Suppose you're a highly-trained self-defense expert with a military background and decades of LEO experience, now conducting firearms and self-defense courses. I'm a civilian taking one of your basic courses and the hypothetical subject of a nighttime home intrusion comes up for discussion.

Do you think your own response to a real home intrusion emergency might differ from the recommendation you give me for dealing with it?
I posted this because I remember the stark contrast between Mas Ayoob's and Gabe Suarez's recommendations about clearing a nighttime home intrusion, from a Glock Talk thread posted originally by another member.

Whereas Suarez details busting through dark doorways commando-style Mas recommended that untrained civilians hunker down in the bedroom with weapon and cellphone and await the police. I'm sure both men are capable of the active, aggressive method for clearing a darkened home but I'm certainly not. I'm also sure one of the burdens of being an expert source is that in a lot of cases people want the experts to make individual choices for the untrained, which is an impossibility.

If we're mature enough to own a firearms, to obtain a CCW license, and have the proper respect for the responsibilities these actions entail then we're mature enough to make the right personal choices for ourselves. Right now --- all things considered --- based upon my personal lifestyle I choose to err on the side of caution. But nothing is cast in stone. Just as I gravitated from C1 to C3 in my normal routine so may I gravitate back to C1 in the future. And threads like this are great sources for hashing these issues out.
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Old 03-08-2013, 16:27   #671
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[QUOTE=PhotoFeller;20069687]

Maybe I am on a quest to remind people that (1) a Glock in C1 may be bad advice for someone new to handguns and (2) NDs can happen to people who least expect it. QUOTE]

The people who do not have NDs are those who "expect" it will happen if they are careless. Therefore they remain vigilant and do everything correctly so that it does not happen. If you are new to firearms seek out some quality training from a well known instructor and join the NRA. Guns are only as safe as the person handling them.

Last edited by 1911pro; 03-08-2013 at 16:28..
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Old 03-08-2013, 16:38   #672
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vandros View Post
As much as it goes against my position, members on this forum should see Mas Ayoob's take on this (reposted from his reply to my question on his forum):

==========
Personally, I could only see myself carrying chamber empty if I was stuck with a pistol that wasn't drop-safe, or had to carry a striker-fired point-and-shoot design without a holster.

I've seen so many cases over the years where there was only time to draw and fire, often with only one hand, that I would feel unnecessarily handicapped without a round in the chamber.

Someone uncomfortable with a Glock having a round chambered might be more confident in a hammer-fired pistol with long double action pull and/or manual safety, or with a double action revolver.

There are lots of factors to consider, and different folks have different comfort levels, which is why that topic always seems to generate long discussions.

Cordially,
Mas
==========
Excellent advice from a person who knows what he is talking about. Thanks for posting it. Now if anyone wants to sell me their 9mm Glocks for a good price... Then again I am just a disrespectful clown....

Last edited by 1911pro; 03-08-2013 at 16:48..
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Old 03-08-2013, 17:03   #673
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A slide is noisy. Pray when you need your gun, someone acting the bad guy does not hear your heart pounding in your chest, not to mention you operating the slide on your gun, under stress. Sometimes things take you by surprise, and sometimes, you may not be the victim, but a bystander. As a bystander, the time it takes to act, without one in the pipe, may spell your certain death. Operate a noisy slide in a crisis? No, not for me.

One in the pipe always. Safe-T-Blok always. Best of both worlds.
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Old 03-08-2013, 17:06   #674
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[quote=1911pro;20069906][QUOTE=PhotoFeller;20069687]

"Maybe I am on a quest to remind people that (1) a Glock in C1 may be bad advice for someone new to handguns and (2) NDs can happen to people who least expect it [because they believe they are doing everything right]." QUOTE]

I added to my above statement from post #669 to clarify its intent. The addition is shown in brackets [ ].

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Old 03-08-2013, 17:32   #675
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vandros View Post
Under your circumstances, perhaps. Under my circumstances, and circumstances of many folks on this forum, carrying glock in C1 will win you a Darwin Award considering associated risks.

Can we just stop with the insults? Make your argument, back it up with logic/evidence, be respectful. Perhaps add something useful to the discussion? Is it too much to ask? Some of you act like you are going thru puberty.
Considering what risks?

Have you ever even been in a gun fight?
Have you ever had a gun in your face?
Have you ever had a knife pulled on you?
Have you ever fought someone that had pulled that knife?
Have you ever done it "empty handed"?
Have you ever been surrounded by a gang?
Have you ever been in a full on riot?
Have you ever been shot at?
Have you ever had to shoot anyone?
Have you ever even been in a "real" fight?
How long have you been carrying?

Have you even considered how much of your perceived circumstances might be imaginary?

Where have i insulted anyone? I haven't. A Darwin Award is just that... one earns it all by oneself.

I carried a Beretta 21a, then a Glock 20, then a G29, everyday for about 25 years, concealed, without a holster, and without even 1 negligent discharge...

I grew up totally SURROUNDED by gangs and criminals and lived it for well over 25 years. I can answer "yes, more than once" to each one of those first 10 questions.

The last "fight" i was in there were about 30 sharp knives laying around, along with several different guns, both hand and long, and they were ALL loaded, (although the long guns had empty chambers), all EASILY within instant reach. I also had a G29 with 20 rounds on me in my holster, round up the pipe...

The "attacker" threatened my life. He had a loaded handgun and a folding knife on him..... and he was much younger and stronger than me...

Did i go for my gun or another or a knife?

No.

Instead, i grabbed the guy by the throat with my weak hand, picked him up, and threw him to the concrete floor.

What did he do?

He started crying.

Circumstances?

We are all in the same damn circumstances.

The crap almost ALWAYS comes down when you LEAST expect it.

Figure on only having a half second to react.

Act accordingly... your life depends on it... as does your families, because they rely on YOU. If you are wrong, your family will have to fend for itself.

Is this "useful to the discussion" enough for you?

Sorry about my immaturity. I'm 54 going on 16. Some day, maybe, i'll write a book for ya'll... but what for? The "logic and evidence" is all around and easy to find... too easy.
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Old 03-08-2013, 17:41   #676
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Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
So in my case the higher chance of having a ND compared to facing a potential life-or-death situation comes down to a half second.

Once any defender understands the necessity for drawing a weapon he/she should be prepared to follow through with whatever method he/she has chosen. I realize there may be circumstances that favor having a loaded chamber, but that necessitates my disregarding the greater chance of suffering a ND incident. Right now I'm operating under the recognition that I'll have to use that half second after the decision to draw a deadly weapon to rack the slide, if at all possible.

And thanks to the GT member who pointed out that a moment's carelessness about situational awareness can be as unforgiving as when handling a C1-condition firearm. Comments like these only make me more wary around firearms, which I count as a positive thing.


Ummm, skuze me, but that "half second" includes "decision time".

Not having a ND boils down to; "YOU KNOWING WHAT YOU ARE DOING AT ALL TIMES."

KNOW it.
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Old 03-08-2013, 18:18   #677
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazz10m View Post
Ummm, skuze me, but that "half second" includes "decision time".
As well, that half-second also comes down to remembering to disengage a manual safety --- something that has proved fatal to a defender. That half-second can be applied to a number of factors, such as where the holster is situated, clothing worn, etc ... As for "decision time", some people are more situationally aware than others, as I tried to point out.

Quote:
Not having a ND boils down to; "YOU KNOWING WHAT YOU ARE DOING AT ALL TIMES."

KNOW it.
I haven't suffered a ND/AD yet and hopefully I never will. I'd really like to read a testimonial from someone who definitively states he/she will never experience one under any circumstances.
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Old 03-08-2013, 18:39   #678
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Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
As well, that half-second also comes down to remembering to disengage a manual safety --- something that has proved fatal to a defender. That half-second can be applied to a number of factors, such as where the holster is situated, clothing worn, etc ... As for "decision time", some people are more situationally aware than others, as I tried to point out.



I haven't suffered a ND/AD yet and hopefully I never will. I'd really like to read a testimonial from someone who definitively states he/she will never experience one under any circumstances.

Right on!
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Old 03-08-2013, 18:43   #679
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Considering what risks?

Have you ever even been in a gun fight?
Have you ever had a gun in your face?
Have you ever had a knife pulled on you?
Have you ever fought someone that had pulled that knife?
Have you ever done it "empty handed"?
Have you ever been surrounded by a gang?
Have you ever been in a full on riot?
Have you ever been shot at?
Have you ever had to shoot anyone?
Have you ever even been in a "real" fight?
How long have you been carrying?

Have you even considered how much of your perceived circumstances might be imaginary?

Where have i insulted anyone? I haven't. A Darwin Award is just that... one earns it all by oneself.

I carried a Beretta 21a, then a Glock 20, then a G29, everyday for about 25 years, concealed, without a holster, and without even 1 negligent discharge...

I grew up totally SURROUNDED by gangs and criminals and lived it for well over 25 years. I can answer "yes, more than once" to each one of those first 10 questions.

The last "fight" i was in there were about 30 sharp knives laying around, along with several different guns, both hand and long, and they were ALL loaded, (although the long guns had empty chambers), all EASILY within instant reach. I also had a G29 with 20 rounds on me in my holster, round up the pipe...

The "attacker" threatened my life. He had a loaded handgun and a folding knife on him..... and he was much younger and stronger than me...

Did i go for my gun or another or a knife?

No.

Instead, i grabbed the guy by the throat with my weak hand, picked him up, and threw him to the concrete floor.

What did he do?

He started crying.

Circumstances?

We are all in the same damn circumstances.

The crap almost ALWAYS comes down when you LEAST expect it.

Figure on only having a half second to react.

Act accordingly... your life depends on it... as does your families, because they rely on YOU. If you are wrong, your family will have to fend for itself.

Is this "useful to the discussion" enough for you?

Sorry about my immaturity. I'm 54 going on 16. Some day, maybe, i'll write a book for ya'll... but what for? The "logic and evidence" is all around and easy to find... too easy.
Thank you for your reply and for providing context to your arguments. This is much more useful to this forum than sarcastic remarks or insults.

You've asked:

===
Have you ever even been in a gun fight?
Have you ever had a gun in your face?
Have you ever had a knife pulled on you?
Have you ever fought someone that had pulled that knife?
Have you ever done it "empty handed"?
Have you ever been surrounded by a gang?
Have you ever been in a full on riot?
Have you ever been shot at?
Have you ever had to shoot anyone?
Have you ever even been in a "real" fight?

===

Your answer was "yes" to many of these questions. My answer is "no" to all of them.

This, to me, clearly shows that our circumstances are very different, and therefore, our threat assessment will lead us predictably to choosing very different behaviors.

You say:

===
Circumstances?
We are all in the same damn circumstances.

===

I, and many other members on this forum disagree. For "our" circumstances an unintentional discharge is much more likely than any of the situations you mentioned. C3 is how we protect ourselves and our families from BGs and accidents involving firearms. Our family, as you said, depend on us for such protection.

I have a huge problem with people like you (i.e., small but vocal portion of folks carrying in c1) calling people like myself (i.e., folks carrying in c3) dumb. First of all, you don't know me - but you jump to conclusions about me. In fact, many of us are far from dumb - we are thoughtful and responsible - no less then you are, I can assure you. You think we are delusional (living in an imaginary world); I think you incorrectly believe that all people are living under the same sets of conditions.

We are also folks who refrain from insulting those we disagree with. I respect your life experiences and your opinion. And I am discussing issues with you in a civil intelligent manner. Is it too much for you to do the same in return? We clearly disagree. Strongly disagree. That comes from our different perceptions of reality. You think yours is definitely right and my is definitely wrong. I think yours is pretty accurate - based on your life experience and circumstances and mine is pretty accurate based on my life experience and circumstances.

Let's learn from one another - not insult each other.
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Old 03-08-2013, 20:34   #680
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I said; "Yes, more than once." to all of those questions, not just some of them.

I have never insulted you. You only think i have.

This shows you have problems with "reading comprehension".

You say i've called you "dumb". I have not. Doing something dumb does not make a person dumb. Smart people do dumb things all the time.

You think your situation is different only because you don't know any better. That doesn't mean you are dumb or stupid, it just means you haven't done your homework and you, like many others, don't have the experience that brings about awareness of the situation we are all in.

I don't have to know you at all. I know criminals and bad, evil people, and what they think, how they think, what they do, and how they do it, and that is enough.

Don't take what i say as an insult. Take it as me trying to wake you, and others like you, up.

You say; "For "our" circumstances an unintentional discharge is much more likely than any of the situations you mentioned."

If that is the case, you have no business carrying a gun... not yet... you are not ready.

I'm not trying to talk down to you. I'm seriously trying to save your life.

You answered "No" to all the 10 questions. That tells me that you have absolutely no experience whatsoever.

I don't care if you or anybody else agrees with me or not. I could care less.

Reality is what it is, whether any of us likes it, agrees with it, recognizes it, or not.

Reality ALWAYS takes precedence.

I appreciate the fact that you and others are trying your best to learn and to protect yourselves and your families the safest ways possible. I appreciate that sometimes it's best for a person to carry a gun even if they have no real understanding of how to use it... BUT, you still have a responsibility to learn how to use it as quickly as possible. IT'S A GUN. And, part of learning about this subject is learning to tough it out and listen to people like me who "tell you how it is". Sorry, in a "yack site" i not going to "write the complete back story" (which would amount to a book) behind what i say when i say something like "No, DON'T do it!". And i'm not going to sugar coat it and serve it up on your favorite plate with your favorite fork. I'm going to hand it to you, and you can take it or leave it.

__________________
Celebrating 20 Years of helping good people get AGrip™!

Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier

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Official AGrip™ Manufacturer Website

AGrip™ Installation Video

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Never let anyone who is clueless about defense tell you what you can and can't do to protect yourself and others.

Μολὼν λαβέ!
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Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42