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Old 03-06-2013, 22:25   #641
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One in the chamber or not?

OF COURSE!!!

Do you want to live and protect your family or not?
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Old 03-07-2013, 05:37   #642
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Ok, let's try this for new.

In the Colorado Senate hearings the other day on their seven anti-gun laws, a woman who testified had been raped and talked about how she might have prevented it if she had a gun. A Democratic state Senator responded and told her that statistics show that if she had had a gun it is more likely she would have been hurt or killed with that gun (think she was already hurt by the rape) than defended herself with it.

So, the question is, if the stats are even close to true (I know they are often twisted greatly by the anti-gun crowd, such as labeling suicides as "accidents"), are you more likely to have your gun used against you if it is C3 than C1, because you are more likely to have it ripped away while taking the time to rack it or having a jam or other issue while trying to chamber a round?
I saw the video of that hearing. The dem lady also added that women who used a firearm in their defense from a rape were shot with their own gun 83 times for every one time a woman managed to save herself. 83 to 1. Now why do I think this dem lady was completely off her rocker. And there is this.

Who would have thought we'd be seeing bills like what we are seeing coming out of Colorado? Yes, Denver is very liberal but some of what they are proposing is more like what you would expect from New York or California... not Colorado.
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Old 03-07-2013, 08:14   #643
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You're absolutely right, it ain't rocket science. Somehow, however, it just seems the decision to carry a weapon chambered, without a safety, should be based on more than "it is faster and more reliable".

Incidentally, I've skated through 72 years in the real world without being attacked, being threatened or knowing anyone personally who was assaulted with a weapon. Based on my life experience, I'd have a hard time explaining why its necessary or appropriate to carry a Glock chambered for self defense. Maybe your experience has been different than mine.

Anyway, I sincerely hope your life over many years to come is as safe as mine has been. Make your SD decisions according to your judgement and your conscience, and pray you never have to pull the trigger. Good luck.
Thought you might find this of use.

Look at the Tueller drill, which found that the average person could cover 21 feet in 2 seconds or less and the average cop could not draw his chamber loaded gun and engage them without being stabbed.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:54   #644
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Thought you might find this of use.

Look at the Tueller drill, which found that the average person could cover 21 feet in 2 seconds or less and the average cop could not draw his chamber loaded gun and engage them without being stabbed.
The 21 ft. drill did show how quickly an attacker can close that distance to strike a blow. If a lunatic is determined to kill someone, chances are he will be able to reach his victim. I accept the Tueller results.

My SD tactical plan is based on avoiding places where I might cross paths with an attacker. I make it a practice to avoid being on foot in dark parking lots, parking garages, alleys, taverns and other places where I'd be easy prey. There are times when I have to go to the drug store or buy gasoline at night, so danger avoidance isn't a perfect tactic; it does reduce risk dramatically.

Another reality that works in my favor is that there probably aren't many lunatics on the prowl looking for a random victim to stab. As the Ohio crime statistics show, most murders are committed against past and present acquaintances. Random murders are very, very infrequent. It also seems clear that a large proportion of deadly attacks are against minority members.

If someone in my neck of the woods is intent on commiting a random murder with a knife, chances are the victim will not be me...unless he shows up at Starbucks between 7 and 10 am.

I'm not a very proficient pistolero, 1911pro, so I depend on simple, common sense tactics to keep the Mrs. and me out of harms way. My lifestyle provides plenty of pleasure and adventure without much concern about becoming a murder victim from 21' or any other distance.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 03-07-2013 at 14:25..
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:05   #645
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Photofeller,

I once walked into a bank between the time the robber walked out and the police showed up. A minute or two difference and I would have walked in on a robbery in progress. This was during "bankers hours" in a nice part of town.

I also had a couple of "gentlemen" try to strongarm rob me, at three in the afternoon, in the parking lot of the Aberdeen, MS Federal Courthouse while there was armed security not even 50 yards away.

This doesn't even begin to count my experiences in LE which have helped shape my attitude about how and when I carry.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:48   #646
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Photofeller,

I once walked into a bank between the time the robber walked out and the police showed up. A minute or two difference and I would have walked in on a robbery in progress. This was during "bankers hours" in a nice part of town.

I also had a couple of "gentlemen" try to strongarm rob me, at three in the afternoon, in the parking lot of the Aberdeen, MS Federal Courthouse while there was armed security not even 50 yards away.

This doesn't even begin to count my experiences in LE which have helped shape my attitude about how and when I carry.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
You and I know these incidents can and do happen. Criminals can strike at church, Starbucks...anywhere at any time. You have been a victim while I have not.

Not all criminals go about their 'business' with the intent to kill. The bank robbery you mention probably wasn't a shootout. The courthouse incident probably didn't result in gunfire. Experiencing a situation in everyday life where I might actually have to kill another person in order to survive seems so unlikely, based on what I know about the world and my lifestyle, that it borders on unimaginable.

Concealed carry IS ONLY about having the means to kill in order to avoid being killed, and arguments in favor of C1 only center on its greater efficiency in the act of killing. Because the probability of being the target of a deadly attack is so low in my case, I carry only when I feel the need, and C3 is 'efficient' enough for me.

We are much more likely to be killed in a car accident than being a murder victim. When I think about all the risks I face each day, being attacked by someone intent on killing me is near the bottom of the list; in fact, the threat of being murdered hardly makes the list at all.

You live by your experiences and judgement, and I live by mine. I think you could say we are both right.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 03-07-2013 at 17:08..
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:59   #647
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Photofeller,

I once walked into a bank between the time the robber walked out and the police showed up. A minute or two difference and I would have walked in on a robbery in progress. This was during "bankers hours" in a nice part of town.

I also had a couple of "gentlemen" try to strongarm rob me, at three in the afternoon, in the parking lot of the Aberdeen, MS Federal Courthouse while there was armed security not even 50 yards away.

This doesn't even begin to count my experiences in LE which have helped shape my attitude about how and when I carry.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy


See, and that's just it; time. Lots of studies have been done, and done long ago, on how much time a person often has to get the gun out and get a shot off. It is: a half second. That's it. That includes 'from concealment'. That also includes making the decision to pull the gun and fire it before you even pull the gun. Seriously, LOTS of people will completely freeze up in total fear at that moment... and so the term "petrified". So, imagine you are facing IT and time yourself and practice. You'll quickly realize that to carry a handgun with an empty chamber for protection will get you a Darwin Award.

Btw, those 83:1 stats from that IDIOT democrat are TOTALLY full of crap. Flat out lies. Call them what they are.

Hey, did ya'll hear the latest from that democrat in Florida? She proposed a law that says you have to take an anger management class if you want to buy any ammo... as in "before"......

They walk amongst us....
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:06   #648
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... to carry a handgun with an empty chamber for protection will get you a Darwin Award...
Under your circumstances, perhaps. Under my circumstances, and circumstances of many folks on this forum, carrying glock in C1 will win you a Darwin Award considering associated risks.

Can we just stop with the insults? Make your argument, back it up with logic/evidence, be respectful. Perhaps add something useful to the discussion? Is it too much to ask? Some of you act like you are going thru puberty.
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Old 03-07-2013, 15:02   #649
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Here's Mr. Ayoob's reply.
"When this device [Cominolli safety] came out,we tested it and tried to make it fail. We didn't, and in all these years I have yet to hear of a broken one.

A big advantage to the manual safety which many people miss is the weapon retention factor. If the opponent momentarily gets your gun away from you and tries to shoot you with it, he has to figure out that it is the rare Glock with a manual safety before he can make it go bang. This can buy you time to rectify the situation.

A competent user, knowing the safety is there and making it part of regular practice as with a cocked and locked 1911, should have no more trouble using it reflexively than someone with a familiar 1911 that doesn't have an ambi safety.

While I don't know of any departments issuing the gun that way at this time, I'm sure there are many Cominolli-equipped Glocks being carried on departments with broad privately owned/department approved weapons policies."

best,
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Last edited by PhotoFeller; 03-07-2013 at 15:04..
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Old 03-07-2013, 16:47   #650
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We are much more likely to be killed in a car accident than being a murder victim. When I think about all the risks I face each day, being attacked by someone intent on killing me is near the bottom of the list; in fact, the threat of being murdered hardly makes the list at all.


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See, and that's just it; time. Lots of studies have been done, and done long ago, on how much time a person often has to get the gun out and get a shot off. It is: a half second. That's it. That includes 'from concealment'. That also includes making the decision to pull the gun and fire it before you even pull the gun. Seriously, LOTS of people will completely freeze up in total fear at that moment... and so the term "petrified". So, imagine you are facing IT and time yourself and practice. You'll quickly realize that to carry a handgun with an empty chamber for protection will get you a Darwin Award.
So in my case the higher chance of having a ND compared to facing a potential life-or-death situation comes down to a half second.

Once any defender understands the necessity for drawing a weapon he/she should be prepared to follow through with whatever method he/she has chosen. I realize there may be circumstances that favor having a loaded chamber, but that necessitates my disregarding the greater chance of suffering a ND incident. Right now I'm operating under the recognition that I'll have to use that half second after the decision to draw a deadly weapon to rack the slide, if at all possible.

And thanks to the GT member who pointed out that a moment's carelessness about situational awareness can be as unforgiving as when handling a C1-condition firearm. Comments like these only make me more wary around firearms, which I count as a positive thing.
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Old 03-07-2013, 18:48   #651
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You're absolutely right, it ain't rocket science. Somehow, however, it just seems the decision to carry a weapon chambered, without a safety, should be based on more than "it is faster and more reliable".

Incidentally, I've skated through 72 years in the real world without being attacked, being threatened or knowing anyone personally who was assaulted with a weapon. Based on my life experience, I'd have a hard time explaining why its necessary or appropriate to carry a Glock chambered for self defense. Maybe your experience has been different than mine.

Anyway, I sincerely hope your life over many years to come is as safe as mine has been. Make your SD decisions according to your judgement and your conscience, and pray you never have to pull the trigger. Good luck.
Long ago I learned to ignore personal experience when trying to judge the likelyhood of 1 in a million events, or to what extent to prepare for them. Especially if that one in a million event is a catastrophic result. For example, neither me, nor anyone I know, has had their airbag deploy, but that doesn't make me feel they're useless.

So it is with carrying condition one. Carrying with an empty pipe is like driving without wearing your seatbelt. If I see a crash coming, I'll put it on. Right. You can be up to your ***** in stuff so fast the chance of you taking your next breath is in doubt.

Last edited by JohnnyE; 03-07-2013 at 18:49..
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Old 03-07-2013, 20:40   #652
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one in the chamber? always! remember it is the unloaded gun that kills....most articles on accidental shootings...the shooter remarks, I thought it was unloaded.
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Old 03-07-2013, 20:47   #653
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Long ago I learned to ignore personal experience when trying to judge the likelyhood of 1 in a million events, or to what extent to prepare for them. Especially if that one in a million event is a catastrophic result. For example, neither me, nor anyone I know, has had their airbag deploy, but that doesn't make me feel they're useless.

So it is with carrying condition one. Carrying with an empty pipe is like driving without wearing your seatbelt. If I see a crash coming, I'll put it on. Right. You can be up to your ***** in stuff so fast the chance of you taking your next breath is in doubt.
I wonder how many accidents resulting in airbag deployment happen in a year on US streets and highways versus the number of attacks by strangers with murder as the motive. Hmmmm. I'll bet there are a lot more auto accidents where airbags save lives than there are deadly surprise attacks where deploying handguns prevent murder. A WHOLE LOT MORE!!

Driving with or without one's seatbelt doesn't affect the safety of other drivers or padestrians in the area. A handgun ND can result in catastrophic consequences for anyone nearby.

In 2011, NYPD officers incurred a total of 3 gunshot wounds on duty from suspects. In the same year, NYC officers had 6 self inflicted gunshot wounds from ND. This is but one example of the reality of NDs.

There must be a better, more sophisticated justification for universal C1 than the tired old analogies about seat belts, insurance and fire alarms, or saying that its just common sense. I really would love for someone to produce a meaningful, supportable presentation to demonstrate why the benefits of C1 with Glock pistols are materially better than the risk of NDs attributable to C1. I think such a presentation should be a slam dunk if C1 is so superior.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 03-07-2013 at 21:59..
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Old 03-07-2013, 21:33   #654
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You and I know these incidents can and do happen. Criminals can strike at church, Starbucks...anywhere at any time. You have been a victim while I have not.

Not all criminals go about their 'business' with the intent to kill. The bank robbery you mention probably wasn't a shootout. The courthouse incident probably didn't result in gunfire. Experiencing a situation in everyday life where I might actually have to kill another person in order to survive seems so unlikely, based on what I know about the world and my lifestyle, that it borders on unimaginable.

Concealed carry IS ONLY about having the means to kill in order to avoid being killed, and arguments in favor of C1 only center on its greater efficiency in the act of killing. Because the probability of being the target of a deadly attack is so low in my case, I carry only when I feel the need, and C3 is 'efficient' enough for me.

We are much more likely to be killed in a car accident than being a murder victim. When I think about all the risks I face each day, being attacked by someone intent on killing me is near the bottom of the list; in fact, the threat of being murdered hardly makes the list at all.

You live by your experiences and judgement, and I live by mine. I think you could say we are both right.
Having read all of your posts throughout this thread, it seems to me that if anyone would be careful enough to carry C1 it would be you. I cannot imagine you handling a firearm carelessly.

Regards,
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Old 03-07-2013, 22:09   #655
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Having read all of your posts throughout this thread, it seems to me that if anyone would be careful enough to carry C1 it would be you. I cannot imagine you handling a firearm carelessly.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
Thanks, Happy.

I am safe to a fault, but I had an ND anyway. One. In my home. My wife and son were in the house, but nobody was hurt. I know it can happen.
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Old 03-07-2013, 22:33   #656
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Thanks, Happy.

I am safe to a fault, but I had an ND anyway. One. In my home. My wife and son were in the house, but nobody was hurt. I know it can happen.
Wow. This explains a lot about your position. I was taught at a very young age that all firearms are always considered loaded until I prove at that moment that it is not. Hunting almost all my life helped to reinforce this. I am now in my early 40s and thank my father for instilling at a young age proper firearms safety. I am not beating on you for what happened. Just wondering if you would explain how it happened?
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Old 03-08-2013, 02:00   #657
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Wow. This explains a lot about your position. I was taught at a very young age that all firearms are always considered loaded until I prove at that moment that it is not. Hunting almost all my life helped to reinforce this. I am now in my early 40s and thank my father for instilling at a young age proper firearms safety. I am not beating on you for what happened. Just wondering if you would explain how it happened?

After a session of dry firing my G22, I racked the slide and pulled the trigger for one last dry fire before putting the Glock away. But, I had replaced the empty mag with a loaded one; somehow, FOR THAT BRIEF MOMENT OF EMPTY HEADEDNESS, I forgot about the mag change. Something caused me to have a lapse in concentration that I still can't explain. It could have been catastrophic.

I can't explain what I did. It was a serious case of negligence, gross stupidity, whatever you want to call it. I knew better. I seriously considered giving up handguns completely. Instead, I decided to stick around and contribute somehow to discussions about gun safety.

Because they don't have a manual safety, I always carried Glocks C3. I thought I was as safe as any gun owner could be.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 03-08-2013 at 13:55..
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Old 03-08-2013, 07:09   #658
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I know I'll probably catch a ration of crap from a few who have posted on this thread about what I am going to say here, but please gentlemen, before busting my chops, think about this.

It is possible to be too careful, too cautious... to the point of making a mistake or skipping a step or getting off track when handling a firearm. I have seem people do this over the years, usually they are new comers to this arena, and they trip up. I have yet to see one have a ND, but that has been maybe the luck of the draw?? A man who worked down the hall from me on a different project at my last job "accidentally" shot himself to death in June 2010. From what I was told, he was cleaning his 1911 and it discharged. I don't know the details nor do I know what was going on in his life.... only knew a few things I had heard. But from what he had led me to believe when I knew him, he was an experienced gun owner and I think, former military.

I have a system I use when handling any firearm and I do my best to stick to it. It has worked flawlessly for many years and God willing, will continue to do so. Glocks and Glock-like designs have their quirks and therefore should be handled accordingly. But frankly, I handle all of my handguns in the same manner. That way I don't have to worry or think about, "Ok, this is a 1911 so I need to do this and this is an M&P so I need to do that". That sort of thing to me is an accident waiting to happen. Those guns which are loaded in my home or on my person, reside in a holster which protects their triggers and offers retention. If they are out of their holsters, there is a reason and they are not left by themselves.

Just a thought. Don't want the flames for this post so please keep those to yourself.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:06   #659
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After a session of dry firing my G22, I racked the slide and pulled the trigger for one last dry fire before putting the Glock away. But, I had replaced the empty mag with a loaded one; somehow, FOR THAT BRIEF MOMENT OF EMPTY HEADEDNESS, I forgot about the mag change. Something caused me to have a lapse in concentration that I still can't explain. It could have been catastrophic.

I can't explain what I did. It was a serious case of negligence, gross stupidity, whatever you want to call it. I knew better. I seriously considered giving up handguns completely. Instead, I decided to stick around and talk about negligent discharges.

Because they don't have a manual safety, I always carried Glocks C3. I thought I was as safe as any gun owner could be.
Glad no one was hurt. So because you failed at being a safe gun owner you believe that carrying with a round in the chamber is unsafe for all who carry firearms. You have been asking all here to make an arguement for the benifits of carrying with a round in the chamber to out weigh your belief that it is dangerous because of an nd that you caused. Just because you failed does not mean that the rest of us who are responsible gun owners who practice proper gun safety should have to justify our needs or prove our abilities to you. Your time could be better spent, but I am sure at your age no one is going to change your mind. Thanks for being honest about what happened.

Last edited by 1911pro; 03-08-2013 at 08:09..
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:37   #660
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, but I am sure at your age no one is going to change your mind.
Whoa whoa hold on there Cochise, I resemble that remark.

I am bit older than numbnuts, but hey, lets not get all paint brush with the assumptions.

I gleam new things from folks like yourself and others. and am amazed on how much things change and the different mindsets that lead you into other things. (and that is after years and years of training and learning, about 40 years so far)

Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. Anyone who keeps learning stays young. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young. Henry Ford


Oh yeah, I carry C1, period.

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