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Old 03-11-2013, 15:09   #751
unit1069
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Originally Posted by Tazz10m View Post
Never assume anything. It just makes an ass out of u and me.

I've had 54 years to learn and practice "checks and balances". I can't speak for anyone else here.
I'm only making my assumptions based upon your own testimonials. Even though you were patrolling your own property in the dark, mindful of and even expecting something dangerous might occur, you made the mistake of carrying your .22lr rifle in C3 instead of your shotgun. At least that's the way I read your posts regarding the example you provided.

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Originally Posted by Tazz10m View Post
I carried a Beretta 21a, then a Glock 20, then a G29, everyday for about 25 years, concealed, without a holster, and without even 1 negligent discharge...
This is why I suspect Photo wrote that some things in your narratives don't add up. Would you please remind everyone why carrying these weapons C1 under these two conditions wouldn't likely lead to a Darwin Award (or at the very least the Plaxico Burris Award)?
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Old 03-11-2013, 15:12   #752
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You, and many others preferring c1 ignore one fact: There are lots of people in our society carrying in c1 who should NOT be carrying in c1 (either due to lack of training, due to lack of self awareness that one is not very careful by nature, and due to other factors). Proof? Read all all the posts/threads on the unintentional discharges (the number of which is likely under-reported because people who had an ND/AD don't want to look bad) posted by people carrying in c1. Also, there are many anecdotal observations of idiotic (or perhaps just brain-fart-related) behaviors on shooting ranges. These folks (carrying in c1 and who shouldn't be) endanger themselves, their families, and endanger me and my loved ones every single day. Why don't they switch to c3, you ask? No idea. Perhaps some of them live in bad neighborhoods. But perhaps some "expert" telling them that "real men" or "real pistoleros" carry in c1 has something to do with it.

How is this for some "cold and hard" truth?

Think about it. My advocacy for c3 is not entirely due to me trying to toot my horn and to say how I'm right and everyone else is wrong. I care about (1) gun-owning community, (2) our larger society, and (3) our 2nd amendment right. Many people carrying in c1 who shouldn't endanger all three. That, along with many, many other factors in favor of C3 discussed in this thread at least merit a careful consideration of C3 as a great option for vast majority of gun owners.

Now, how do we go about determining who is carrying in c1 who shouldn't be? That's a hard question. It is VERY hard to admit to oneself that one probably shouldn't. But, this must be a something all of us should carefully consider, no matter how much it hurts our macho manly ego.



As a side note: I'm very skeptical about anyone saying: "I will NEVER have an unintentional discharge, because I'm well trained, I never have brain freezes, I'm competent, I understand my weapon". HOW DO YOU KNOW? How can anyone guarantee no unintentional discharges with their c1-glock every second of every day? I think many folks who had an unintentional discharge weren't retards, they were probably also pretty well trained (e.g., police departments or military), and they also knew their weapon pretty well. In this situation, I think, erring on the side of safety is a prudent option. As I said, I treat my gun as a rattle snake all the time. And my gun is in c3. Moving to c1 would in my mind change my "rattle snake" to African "black mamba" (look up black mamba on wikipedia).

People should do what they are comfortable with. Sure. And some people who have been directly threatened should carry even if they don't have thorough training. That's just the way life goes sometimes... you have to learn on the run. But, a person in that position has to be even more responsible and seek to cram down training as fast as they can... that is, if they really want to protect themselves and others... but they are still behind the curve until they learn to carry in the ready condition.

I never look at my gun or any gun as a snake. A snake is alive and has a brain... a gun is not and does not. YOU make the decisions of what the gun will do. I wouldn't recommend that with a snake.
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Old 03-11-2013, 15:23   #753
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People should do what they are comfortable with. Sure. And some people who have been directly threatened should carry even if they don't have thorough training. That's just the way life goes sometimes... you have to learn on the run. But, a person in that position has to be even more responsible and seek to cram down training as fast as they can... that is, if they really want to protect themselves and others... but they are still behind the curve until they learn to carry in the ready condition.

I never look at my gun or any gun as a snake. A snake is alive and has a brain... a gun is not and does not. YOU make the decisions of what the gun will do. I wouldn't recommend that with a snake.
Tazz, the snake analogy is meant to communicate the following: Any split-second lack of concentration can be deadly. It is also meant to inspire proper and healthy respect and appreciation for our glocks' lethality. As with any analogy, it is not perfect, but I think it effectively conveys the message of never relaxing or becoming complacent around guns, even when one has been extensively trained and follows all the proper protocols. One should never feel that tens of thousands of hours of perfect practice allow one to relax around guns - this is a dangerous mindset of many young (and sometimes old) gun owners, of our young soldiers, and LEOs that inevitably leads to ADs and NDs.
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Old 03-11-2013, 15:24   #754
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Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
I'm only making my assumptions based upon your own testimonials. Even though you were patrolling your own property in the dark, mindful of and even expecting something dangerous might occur, you made the mistake of carrying your .22lr rifle in C3 instead of your shotgun. At least that's the way I read your posts regarding the example you provided.



This is why I suspect Photo wrote that some things in your narratives don't add up. Would you please remind everyone why carrying these weapons C1 under these two conditions wouldn't likely lead to a Darwin Award (or at the very least the Plaxico Burris Award)?
I am using myself as an example that anybody can make mistakes and i gave specific examples of doing so. As for carrying the other guns without any ND/AD's... there were none because i managed not to have any.

Look, everyone makes mistakes. But a person can learn to make less mistakes. Self control is a good place to start. Self control is the thing that makes you study and prepare to be more ready... and to have more self control. Learn to have the self control that is required for carrying a gun.
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Old 03-11-2013, 16:01   #755
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Originally Posted by Tazz10m View Post
Quote by unit1069:
But, the best way to "...help prevent people from badly hurting themselves or others (and from giving gun-community bad name) thru unintentional discharges." is to establish and teach "firearms competency". The only way to do this is with study and practice... and experience.

Your response:
Realty? Have fun with that one; Learn and live.

Often people think issues have been addressed... and they keep thinking that way... but they've inadvertently surrounded themselves with only what they really want to believe as they search to confirm they are correct in their beliefs.
It sounds like this response to unit1069 is saying 'study, practice and experience...get real! Listen to me and learn what it takes to live'.
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Old 03-11-2013, 16:11   #756
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I am using myself as an example that anybody can make mistakes and i gave specific examples of doing so. As for carrying the other guns without any ND/AD's... there were none because i managed not to have any.

Look, everyone makes mistakes. But a person can learn to make less mistakes. Self control is a good place to start. Self control is the thing that makes you study and prepare to be more ready... and to have more self control. Learn to have the self control that is required for carrying a gun.
Good advice.
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Old 03-11-2013, 17:47   #757
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Mad because I called you out on your other posts that you would not reply back to? I quoted it like you asked. You obviously have no training from the posts that you have made. I have trained in martial arts for many years. If you cannot even see the benifit of having your off hand free then you have no clue about self defense in general. It is all about your skill set and yes there are many variables. I made no comments about it being a perfect senerio as there is no such thing. Each person and situation is different. Do everything possible to stack the odds in your favor. Carrying a gun with an empty chamber is not helping to do this.
Mad? I don't take you that serious. Just the same, I've been attacked twice. Woke up in the ER once, on the sidewalk the second time. First time was some prospect proving himself to his gang. Then the rest of them tried to finish me off. Second time was mugged in downtown St. Pete. I've already said I'm slow. Good luck with your staged and rehearsed marshal arts classes and competitions. I'm sure that gives you and edge but it won't make you invincible unless you're Steven Seagal. If using the off hand to hold off an attacker were that easy, football would be a boring sport. When your attacker hits you like a truck, your left hand isn't going to be very effective at holding him off.
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Old 03-11-2013, 18:33   #758
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Originally Posted by CharlestonG26 View Post
Why does this STUPID topic continue to appear on GT??? I, respectively, ask for moderator intervention.
I think they did already. making it a sticky prevents the inevitable noob thread every week or so.


My own take on the subject........



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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Carry IssuesCarry IssuesCarry IssuesCarry Issues


Carry or don't carry a gun.
Carry or don't carry bullets with that gun.
Carry bullets, but only in the box and not in the magazine.
Carry with the bullets in the magazine, but leave the gun at home.
Carry a gun with one in the chamber, but leave the firing pin at home.
Carry a large rock and don't carry a gun at all.
Just say no to drugs.
Just stay home and do some real work on that bunker in the back yard.



But really, carrying a gun, having bullets, having them in the gun, and worrying about whether you have one in the chamber or not is such a minor and trivial concern, that it should be seen as a personal choice. Most people that carry one as part of their profession carry one in the chamber when outside the wire. Do whatever you want, and be happy about it.

If you've made a choice to carry one in the chamber or not, and that choice makes you uncomfortable, try it the other way for a while and see if you like that way better.

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Old 03-11-2013, 20:31   #759
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Mad? I don't take you that serious. Just the same, I've been attacked twice. Woke up in the ER once, on the sidewalk the second time. First time was some prospect proving himself to his gang. Then the rest of them tried to finish me off. Second time was mugged in downtown St. Pete. I've already said I'm slow. Good luck with your staged and rehearsed marshal arts classes and competitions. I'm sure that gives you and edge but it won't make you invincible unless you're Steven Seagal. If using the off hand to hold off an attacker were that easy, football would be a boring sport. When your attacker hits you like a truck, your left hand isn't going to be very effective at holding him off.
Sorry that that stuff happened to you. You are correct in that a lot of martial arts schools are a joke. Most people do not know any better. You even proved your ignorance on the subject with the reference to Steven Seagal who was not much of a martial artist even in his prime. I have 12 years of Shaolin Hung Fut Kung Fu and full contact/boxing training. The right kind of training and mindset can help to keep bad things from happening to good people. All I can tell you is to put the time,pain,sweat, and money into learning how to better defend yourself. There are some good schools in your state. Not sure if this is close to you if you even have any interest at all, but this is a good school. http://www.clearwaterkungfu.com/schedule.html
Just trying to help as I think everyone who CCs a firearm should get some open hands training at the very least. You are right in that it will not make you invincible, but it may just save your life the next time. Football by the way is a poor example because they do not strike. I would not be grabbing and holding on to a person unless I absolutely had to. Striking would be a much better option in most cases. I do think football is a boring sport anyway. Good luck to you and stay safe.
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Old 03-11-2013, 23:39   #760
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Thanks Doc. Glad we managed to prevent those pesky noobs from cluttering up GT in the future.

Whew! Now we can get back to talkin' about purple Glocks and Obama. You know, the important stuff.


LOL!
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Old 03-12-2013, 00:26   #761
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Carrying a gun with a loaded chamber, is about as useful, as carrying a deluxe condom.
Its always there when you need it.
But, you still don't want to use it ?



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Old 03-12-2013, 00:59   #762
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I have studied Krav Maga & Shotokan for quite awhile now and can handle most "problems" that present themselves, but I still wouldn't carry my G21 with an empty chamber...It's just too light and too short to beat someone with, and I may not have both hands available to use to "rack the slide" effectively...And real-life isn't anything like the movies.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:32   #763
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Carry a G36 in a Raven vanguard holster. Its a minimallist holster. Not for everyone but it works for me, one in the tube and ready to roll. I like this holster b/c it covers the trigger and is like a kydex holster you have to pull to make it come out, it wont just slip out. I was raised around firearms and help instruct some classes with a buddy of mine, so I guess it wasnt much of a transition to carrying one concealed every day for me. Main this like it has been said and resaid is be comfortable and confident.
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Old 03-12-2013, 04:46   #764
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You, and many others advocating c1 so passionately ignore one fact: There are lots of people in our society carrying in c1 who should NOT be carrying in c1 (either due to lack of training, due to lack of self awareness that one is not very careful by nature, and due to other factors). Proof? Read all all the posts/threads on the unintentional discharges (the number of which is likely under-reported because most people who have had an ND/AD don't want to publicly admit it) posted by people carrying in c1. Also, there are many anecdotal observations of idiotic (or perhaps just brain-fart-related) behaviors on shooting ranges. These folks (i.e., carrying in c1 and who shouldn't be) endanger themselves, their families, and endanger me and my loved ones every single day. Why don't they switch to c3, you ask? No idea. Perhaps some of them live in bad neighborhoods, or somebody is directly threatening their lives. But perhaps for some of them some "expert" telling them that "real men" or "real pistoleros" carry in c1 has something to do with it...

How is this for some "cold and hard" truth? Think about it.

My advocacy for c3 is not about me trying to toot my horn and to say how I'm right and everyone else is wrong. I don't care about winning arguments at this stage in my life. I care about (1) gun-owning community, (2) our larger society, and (3) our 2nd amendment right. Many people carrying in c1 and who shouldn't be endanger all three. That, along with many, many other factors in favor of C3 discussed in this thread at least merit a careful consideration of C3 as a legitimate option for vast number (if not the majority) of gun owners.

Now, how do we go about determining who is carrying in c1 who shouldn't be? That's a hard question. Everyone confronting it will probably initially say: "Well, it's definitely not me. I'm definitely not someone who is carrying in c1 and who shouldn't be". It is VERY hard to admit to oneself that one probably shouldn't carry glocks in c1. But, this must be a something all of us should carefully consider, no matter how much it hurts our macho manly ego.



As a side note: I'm very skeptical about anyone saying: "I will NEVER have an unintentional discharge because I'm well trained, I never have brain freezes, I'm competent, I'm young and strong (or experienced and wise), I understand my weapon". HOW DO YOU KNOW? I mean how can you guarantee that there will never by any unintentional discharges with your c1-glocks every second of every day?! Have you ever looked at your watch and then couldn't tell what time it was? Have you ever had a "close call" while driving? I think many folks who had an unintentional discharge were pretty normal people: they weren't retards, they were probably also pretty well trained (e.g., current or ex police or military), and they also knew their weapon pretty well. In this situation, I think, erring on the side of safety is a prudent option. Given this ambiguity on who should and shouldn't carry in c1 and inability to guarantee no unintentional discharge from the objectively more dangerous c1-glock translates into carrying in c3, unless you absolutely must carry in c1.
And this is why I have stated time after time that how one wishes to carry is their choice and theirs alone. It is no one else's business how they choose to carry. They take the decision and they choose to live with it. Now tell me... how is that "advocating c1 so passionately" on my part? Did I miss something or did you?

Your post here seems to infer that there should be some sort of control over how people's carry condition should be in public. Some sort of minimum standard by which they need to meet or exceed before they can go C1. Who would set this? Who would check it and how? If I am wrong, please say so but it did come across that way. I would hope that would not be the case... that there has to be some mandatory minimum level of something before one is allowed to carry with a round in the chamber. Once again, just so there is no confusion here, it is my position that how one carries, what condition they prefer to employ, and even whether or not they carry at all is entirely a personal choice. All that matters to me is what I choose to do. I could care less what others do as long as they leave me alone.
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Old 03-12-2013, 04:59   #765
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Sorry that that stuff happened to you. You are correct in that a lot of martial arts schools are a joke. Most people do not know any better. You even proved your ignorance on the subject with the reference to Steven Seagal who was not much of a martial artist even in his prime. I have 12 years of Shaolin Hung Fut Kung Fu and full contact/boxing training. The right kind of training and mindset can help to keep bad things from happening to good people. All I can tell you is to put the time,pain,sweat, and money into learning how to better defend yourself. There are some good schools in your state. Not sure if this is close to you if you even have any interest at all, but this is a good school. http://www.clearwaterkungfu.com/schedule.html
Just trying to help as I think everyone who CCs a firearm should get some open hands training at the very least. You are right in that it will not make you invincible, but it may just save your life the next time. Football by the way is a poor example because they do not strike. I would not be grabbing and holding on to a person unless I absolutely had to. Striking would be a much better option in most cases. I do think football is a boring sport anyway. Good luck to you and stay safe.
Thanks for the link. Those attacks were 30+ years ago. My best defense is SA. That has worked well for me since. Some HTH training is always beneficial. Something I've never been good at. I was referring to the quarter back sack in football. The off hand out does nothing for them but they do it anyhow. And yes it is boring. I like NASCAR, the even more boring sport. I've never even heard of Shaolin Hung Fut Kung Fu. Can you say that around your ma? I have to go work in one of the Scientology buildings today. Talk about feeling trapped and threatened. Their paranoid security makes me paranoid. You be safe too.
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:11   #766
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Thanks for the link. Those attacks were 30+ years ago. My best defense is SA. That has worked well for me since. Some HTH training is always beneficial. Something I've never been good at. I was referring to the quarter back sack in football. The off hand out does nothing for them but they do it anyhow. And yes it is boring. I like NASCAR, the even more boring sport. I've never even heard of Shaolin Hung Fut Kung Fu. Can you say that around your ma? I have to go work in one of the Scientology buildings today. Talk about feeling trapped and threatened. Their paranoid security makes me paranoid. You be safe too.
Thanks. Watch out for Tom Cruise!

Here is a few links http://www.donniamstudio.com/
http://www.taiyimkungfu.com/Home.php

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Old 03-12-2013, 06:58   #767
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And this is why I have stated time after time that how one wishes to carry is their choice and theirs alone. It is no one else's business how they choose to carry. They take the decision and they choose to live with it. Now tell me... how is that "advocating c1 so passionately" on my part? Did I miss something or did you?

Your post here seems to infer that there should be some sort of control over how people's carry condition should be in public. Some sort of minimum standard by which they need to meet or exceed before they can go C1. Who would set this? Who would check it and how? If I am wrong, please say so but it did come across that way. I would hope that would not be the case... that there has to be some mandatory minimum level of something before one is allowed to carry with a round in the chamber. Once again, just so there is no confusion here, it is my position that how one carries, what condition they prefer to employ, and even whether or not they carry at all is entirely a personal choice. All that matters to me is what I choose to do. I could care less what others do as long as they leave me alone.
Sorry if I misunderstood your position. As for control, I think there should be informal high standards/expectations within the gun community itself promoting behaviors erring on the side of safety. Highly encouraging extensive training. Perhaps making such training affordable. Paying more attention to safety training, not just to marksmanship training. Expanding the list of the 4 basic safety rules. Being careful about what methods of carry we encourage new ccw permit holders to use. There are lots of things we can/should be doing voluntarily/informally as a gun communitiy. If we can do that, I think, we'll pull the rug from under the feet of the gun-control crowd.
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Old 03-12-2013, 07:47   #768
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Sorry if I misunderstood your position. As for control, I think there should be informal high standards/expectations within the gun community itself promoting behaviors erring on the side of safety. Highly encouraging extensive training. Perhaps making such training affordable. Paying more attention to safety training, not just to marksmanship training. Expanding the list of the 4 basic safety rules. Being careful about what methods of carry we encourage new ccw permit holders to use. There are lots of things we can/should be doing voluntarily/informally as a gun communitiy. If we can do that, I think, we'll pull the rug from under the feet of the gun-control crowd.
I have no problem whatsoever with encouraging people to get quality training, both in the safe handling of firearms, in their use, and in the laws in their respective states as regards the carrying of arms and the use of deadly force. I have written this many times and believe it to be more than a good thing. We in the gun culture do ourselves and the general public at large a service in following what I just wrote and conducting ourselves in a manner beyond reproach. While I am not really concerned whether or not the person next to or behind me in a line in a business is uncomfortable with my being armed, I firmly believe in and practice positive behavior when out in public; armed or not.

I have had people ask me all manner of questions when they see my sidearm (I carry openly most of the time) and only a few have posed them in a manner of someone being scared or leary of being in my presence. Nearly all were genuinely curious. A few asked "is that loaded" to which I tend to answer in a comical way to assuage their concerns.

Yes, we as people who keep and bear arms have a responsibility to do so in a positive light to project the image of responsible members of our respective communities. This serves our purposes and eases the public mind.
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:49   #769
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I've carried a G30, .45 calibur, chambered for almost 6 years and (knock on wood) it hasn't shot me yet. I use a Galco IWB holster, but I also have the composite OWB holster for it too. I'm more comfortable with the IWB, so that's my primary holster. When you draw the gun, train yourself to keep your trigger finger straight until the gun has cleared the holster and is pointed at your target. It's truly a very simple move. Plus...I have been taught by my instructor that if you have to complete more than 3 moves in a SHTF scenario, you will not be able to remember what to do and you will fail at protecting yourself and/or others. The key here is TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN. The more time you have training, the better your odds will be if you need to react to a real life ordeal. You can even train at home, just make sure to empty your gun, remove the magazine, clear the chamber, triple check that you have done all of these before pointing your gun at anything. I practiced by pointing at my TV while watching the news. I had an issue with "jerking" the trigger...I practiced for hours using a slow squeeze to avoid doing that. Practicing will help more than anything else....get in some range time!!!!
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:00   #770
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I practiced by pointing at my TV while watching the news.
That's a great way to train--every time CBS/NBC/etc. puts out false information I'll practice my draw--I'd get pretty quick on the draw that way!

What kind of Galco holster you got? I use a Galco Summer Comfort for my G17...
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Old 03-12-2013, 13:16   #771
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Originally Posted by Lady Glock View Post
I've carried a G30, .45 calibur, chambered for almost 6 years and (knock on wood) it hasn't shot me yet. I use a Galco IWB holster, but I also have the composite OWB holster for it too. I'm more comfortable with the IWB, so that's my primary holster. When you draw the gun, train yourself to keep your trigger finger straight until the gun has cleared the holster and is pointed at your target. It's truly a very simple move. Plus...I have been taught by my instructor that if you have to complete more than 3 moves in a SHTF scenario, you will not be able to remember what to do and you will fail at protecting yourself and/or others. The key here is TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN. The more time you have training, the better your odds will be if you need to react to a real life ordeal. You can even train at home, just make sure to empty your gun, remove the magazine, clear the chamber, triple check that you have done all of these before pointing your gun at anything. I practiced by pointing at my TV while watching the news. I had an issue with "jerking" the trigger...I practiced for hours using a slow squeeze to avoid doing that. Practicing will help more than anything else....get in some range time!!!!
I totally agree with your comments and their emphasis on training and practice, especially when it comes to the act of reholstering. The disciplined safety steps you describe are essential for handling all firearms.

We always talk about trigger finger discipline as a key to safe handling of a Glock, but its actually a key principle for safety with any firearm. However, the trigger finger safety isn't perfect; at least one study has shown that under stress, our brain often subconsciously seeks confirmation that the trigger is there, ready for instant access by having the trigger finger enter the guard and touch the trigger. This tactile confirmation is a natural, subconscious act. Depending on how frightened we are and where during presentation the trigger is touched, an unintentional discharge may occur. Of course this can happen with any firearm not equipped with a safety, or a gun with the safety disengaged.

The important point about the subconscious 'trigger touch' is that the brain can be conditioned through training to provide skills covering most aspects of firearm SD tactics, but there are conditions when the brain behaves as a 'free agent'; it applies its own "fight or flight" instincts on our behalf. This is just another example of the fact we are subject to behavioral unpredictability simply because we are human.

Training, practice, mind management exercises are extremely important to SD preparedness and firearm safety. In the end, however, we are still subject to the vagaries of human behavior.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 03-12-2013 at 18:29..
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Old 03-12-2013, 13:19   #772
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Originally Posted by Zeebra724 View Post
That's a great way to train--every time CBS/NBC/etc. puts out false information I'll practice my draw--I'd get pretty quick on the draw that way!

What kind of Galco holster you got? I use a Galco Summer Comfort for my G17...
Just make sure to unload first, otherwise you may not have the use of the TV for other, more worthy programs!

I use the USA ULTIMATE SECOND AMENDMENT by Galco. It is super comfortable and I love how easy the gun comes out of it and is reholstered. As long as I have pants that don't have a stretch waistband, I'm good to go. I recently had back surgery and have been wearing a more "sweatpant" option and the waistband doesn't support the weight of the G30, so I have just had to set it beside me in the car and lock it up when I get out. I love the J-Frame hook because I don't always have the belt to hold the holster like the summer comfort would require. Galco makes good holsters, no matter what you are looking for!
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Old 03-12-2013, 13:27   #773
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Lady_Glock: Hope your back heals up quickly...stay safe!
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Old 03-12-2013, 13:37   #774
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Lady_Glock: Hope your back heals up quickly...stay safe!
Thank you very much.
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Old 03-12-2013, 13:41   #775
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I always have a round in the chamber because I understand that my pistol hand may be the only one free when I need it. If I have to draw, I want to be able to shoot in the same motion. Unless someone is ADD I can't imagine leaving an empty chamber that must be filled before I can protect myself or loved ones.
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