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Old 03-05-2013, 09:37   #601
PhotoFeller
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Because you carry a gun for self defense. It can get you killed if you need it fast for its intended purpose. If you are not carrying a handgun for its intended purpose then it is no big deal. I have no idea why you would bother carrying a handgun for anything else except for hunting and even then it is stupid to carry on an empty chamber. Again get some quality training.
Bottom line then: anything less than 100% preparedness is a worthless effort?

Consider this: I have a case of water in my garage to use as needed until its gone. Then I'll buy another case. If collapse of the American economy or the power system seems likely, I'll find a way to bring in a bigger supply in time to be ready.

Prepper A already has 2O cases of water stashed away because the supply could be interrupted for two weeks. Preparing well before trouble erupts is the only sensible thing to do, in his judgement.

Prepper B has 50 cases of water on hand; hell, water might be unavailable for two months. He knows trouble can happen when we least expect it, even in good places.

Is B the only sensible person because he evaluates the threat as greater than the other parties? Is A's effort worthless because he is less prepared than B? Is my water supply a joke because I think I'll have time to get more water if the SHTF?

With something so nebulous as the 'possible-but-improbable' need for a handgun for self defense, how can only one level of preparedness be right while other efforts or strategies to prepare are plain wrong?

Are we still on for tea at 3?

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Old 03-05-2013, 09:58   #602
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Bottom line then: anything less than 100% preparedness is a worthless effort?

Consider this: I have a case of water in my garage to use as needed until its gone. Then I'll buy another case. If economic collapse seems likely, I'll find a way to bring in a bigger supply in time to be ready.

Prepper A already has 2O cases of water stashed away because the supply could be interrupted for two weeks. Preparing well before trouble erupts is the only sensible thing to do.

Prepper B has 50 cases of water on hand; hell, water might be unavailable for two months. And, trouble can happen when we least expect it.

Is B the only sensible person because he evaluates the threat as greater than the other parties? Is A's effort worthless because he is less prepared than B? Is my water supply a joke because I think I'll have time to get more water if the SHTF?

With something so nebulous as the 'possible-but-improbable' need for a handgun for self defense, how can only one level of preparedness be right while other efforts or strategies to prepare are plain wrong?

Are we still on for tea at 3?
Tea is good something with an orange flavor. This is my whole point. Whatever you think you wil do goes out the window. It would be hard enough to draw and fire with a round in the chamber. Sure it is a jerewry store, but just think about the distance of people around you when you are out and about. Yes it's real world and thanks to someone from another site for posting it. Some of you people need a wakeup call.


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Old 03-05-2013, 10:25   #603
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Whatever you think you wil do goes out the window. It would be hard enough to draw and fire with a round in the chamber. Sure it is a jerewry store, but just think about the distance of people around you when you are out and about. Yes it's real world and thanks to someone from another site for posting it. Some of you people need a wakeup call.
Yep--I carry C1 because:
(1) It's a real and unpredictable world out there.
(2) I'm confident in my ability to keep myself safe from my weapon.
(3) I'm confident in the superior quality of my weapon and it's effectiveness when properly used.

When the real adrenaline rush hits, you don't know what you will do. That's when training and good habits need to automatically kick in...such as not putting your finger on the trigger until you're going to shoot! But then, you don't even need to think about that yet if you are carrying C3, since you've got to worry 1st about getting your weapon loaded in precious seconds.

This poor guy in the video had too much going on in an extremely limited amount of time...not enough time to stop his train of thought, stand and draw his weapon, determine his life was threatened, rack his weapon's slide INSTANTLY, and then attempt to hold off the BG threat...1 more step to add to such a situation is many times the last step that is taken.

Ah, if only the BG's would just carry C3 then we wouldn't need to have this discussion, would we?

Now it's your weapon and your choice how "prepared" you want to be--for me, it's not just about me, but about my family and perhaps others around me...so I'm willing to get the training/practice necessary to carry C1.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:45   #604
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Yep--I carry C1 because:
(1) It's a real and unpredictable world out there.
(2) I'm confident in my ability to keep myself safe from my weapon.
(3) I'm confident in the superior quality of my weapon and it's effectiveness when properly used.

When the real adrenaline rush hits, you don't know what you will do. That's when training and good habits need to automatically kick in...such as not putting your finger on the trigger until you're going to shoot! But then, you don't even need to think about that yet if you are carrying C3, since you've got to worry 1st about getting your weapon loaded in precious seconds.

This poor guy in the video had too much going on in an extremely limited amount of time...not enough time to stop his train of thought, stand and draw his weapon, determine his life was threatened, rack his weapon's slide INSTANTLY, and then attempt to hold off the BG threat...1 more step to add to such a situation is many times the last step that is taken.

Ah, if only the BG's would just carry C3 then we wouldn't need to have this discussion, would we?

Now it's your weapon and your choice how "prepared" you want to be--for me, it's not just about me, but about my family and perhaps others around me...so I'm willing to get the training/practice necessary to carry C1.
Agree 100%. Great post.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:52   #605
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Tea is good something with an orange flavor. This is my whole point. Whatever you think you wil do goes out the window. It would be hard enough to draw and fire with a round in the chamber. Sure it is a jerewry store, but just think about the distance of people around you when you are out and about. Yes it's real world and thanks to someone from another site for posting it. Some of you people need a wakeup call.
Last I looked, the state of Ohio has about 500 homicides a year, of which 66% are committed against black males and 8% are black female victims. Most Ohio homicides are committed by personal acquaintances (family, friends, work relationships, intimate relationships, former intimate relationships); drug-related contacts are probably part of this, too. So, if you are white, are good to your family, friends, co-workers and lovers/former lovers, and practice danger avoidance plus situational awareness, your chances of being murdered are almost...well...0.

Actually, I think it might be perfectly safe for you to carry a hammer or a brick!

The statistics obviously are less favorable for black Ohio residents.

The wake-up call should probably be directed back at you, unless you operate a jewelery store in a high-crime area where your sister-in-law loves jewelery but hates your guts.

Finger sandwiches ok?

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Old 03-05-2013, 12:08   #606
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Last I looked, the state of Ohio has about 500 homicides a year, of which 66% are committed against black males and 8% are black female victims. Most Ohio homicides are committed by personal acquaintances (family, friends, work relationships, intimate relationships, former intimate relationships). So, if you are white, are good to your family, friends, co-workers and lovers/former lovers, and practice danger avoidance plus situational awareness, your chances of being murdered are almost...well...0. Actually, I think it might be perfectly safe for you to carry a hammer or a brick!

The statistics obviously are much less favorable for black Ohio residents.

The wake-up call should probably be directed back at you, unless you operate a jewelery store in a high-crime area and your sister-in-law loves jewelery but hates your guts.

Finger sandwiches ok?
No cookies! If you think this way why even bother carrying a firearm at all at anytime during your life. Why even go on a ccw forum at all? I am white and live in an average to upper class neighborhood. My best friend is a cop in my city and he tells me the stuff that happens daily that does not get reported,such as robberys, shooting, beatings, rape etc. Bad stuff happens in good places to all people. I have made the choice to do all that is in my power to protect myself and family from bad people. If you do not want or need to do this rock on, but expect no pat on the back from me or others who know you are wrong in your way of thinking. Oatmeal cookies...

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Old 03-05-2013, 12:34   #607
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No cookies! If you think this way why even bother carrying a firearm at all at anytime during your life. Why even go on a ccw forum at all? I am white and live in an average to upper class neighborhood. My best friend is a cop in my city and he tells me the stuff that happens daily that does not get reported,such as robberys, shooting, beatings, rape etc. Bad stuff happens in good places to all people. I have made the choice to do all that is in my power to protect myself and family from bad people. If you do not want or need to do this rock on, but expect no pat on the back from me or others who know you are wrong in your way of thinking. Oatmeal cookies...
You can't logically, systematically justify carrying a firearm in C1 except to say bad things happen and its a choice you've made. At the same time, you're being critical of people who have legitimate, well thought out, logical reasons for not choosing your path. Some of us have weighed the risks of one factor versus another, evaluated our surroundings, considered our paths of travel and our lifestyle, and we have come out at a different place than you.

I really don't want or need a pat on the back, but I also don't appreciate a kick in the pants. Just respect my choice as I respect yours.

Now, I'll pour.

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Old 03-05-2013, 15:24   #608
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Last I looked, the state of Ohio has about 500 homicides a year, of which 66% are committed against black males and 8% are black female victims. Most Ohio homicides are committed by personal acquaintances (family, friends, work relationships, intimate relationships, former intimate relationships); drug-related contacts are probably part of this, too. So, if you are white, are good to your family, friends, co-workers and lovers/former lovers, and practice danger avoidance plus situational awareness, your chances of being murdered are almost...well...0. Actually, I think it might be perfectly safe for you to carry a hammer or a brick!

The statistics obviously are less favorable for black Ohio residents.

The wake-up call should probably be directed back at you, unless you operate a jewelery store in a high-crime area where your sister-in-law loves jewelery but hates your guts.

Finger sandwiches ok?
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Oatmeal is my favorite cause they're wholesome, too.

You can't logically justify carrying a firearm in C1 except to say bad things happen and its a choice you've made. At the same time, you're being critical of people who have legitimate, well thought out, logical reasons for not choosing your path. Some of us have weighed the risks of one factor versus another, evaluated our surroundings, considered our paths of travel and our lifestyle, and we have come out at a different place than you.

I really don't want or need a pat on the back, but I also don't appreciate a kick in the pants. Just respect my choice as I respect yours.

Now, I'll pour.
I can justify it by the fact that it is slow and unreliable to try and draw under stress. The best you will get from me is "well you have a gun."
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Old 03-05-2013, 16:45   #609
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I can justify it by the fact that it is slow and unreliable to try and draw under stress. The best you will get from me is "well you have a gun."
It's settled then. We have agreed to disagree. Good luck.
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Old 03-05-2013, 20:29   #610
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Last I looked, the state of Ohio has about 500 homicides a year, of which 66% are committed against black males and 8% are black female victims. Most Ohio homicides are committed by personal acquaintances (family, friends, work relationships, intimate relationships, former intimate relationships); drug-related contacts are probably part of this, too. So, if you are white, are good to your family, friends, co-workers and lovers/former lovers, and practice danger avoidance plus situational awareness, your chances of being murdered are almost...well...0. Actually, I think it might be perfectly safe for you to carry a hammer or a brick!
This might just be the dumbest thing I've ever read in a gun forum, especially one dedicated to concealed carry. This is the kind of thing I expect to read from an anti-gunner in the comments section of the NYTimes. This thread has featured some reasonable arguments for carrying C3 (none I agree with, but reasonable). This is not one of them. This is utter garbage.

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Old 03-05-2013, 21:27   #611
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This might just be the dumbest thing I've ever read in a gun forum, especially one dedicated to concealed carry. This is the kind of thing I expect to read from an anti-gunner in the comments section of the NYTimes. This thread has featured some reasonable arguments for carrying C3 (none I agree with, but reasonable). This is not one of them. This is utter garbage.
Maybe you processed the words without factoring in the intended sarcasm. The brick and hammer remark was purely a poke at 1911pro, in jest, because he is so rigidly against C3.

Maybe I talk to much.

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Old 03-05-2013, 21:40   #612
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Maybe you processed the words without factoring in the intended sarcasm. The brick and hammer remark was purely a poke at 1911pro in jest because he is so rigidly against C3.

Maybe you are unwilling to consider information or facts that run contrary to your position, particularly basic statistical information, to make a point which the opponent is obliged to counter to sustain a credible position...if he can. If he doesn't counter, it means he accepts the premise put before hi'm. Folks who trash C3 often dislike anything that smells like a probability argument because all that counts is "bad things can happen anytime and anywhere".

Maybe you think its intellectually dishonest to point out the absence of logic or facts in arguments presented by the opponent.

Maybe you've been reading the NY Times too much.

Welcome to the discussion.
Lot's of "Maybes"...here's another one: "Maybe" you guys should just take a break from this thread, go get some fresh air, and just enjoy the freedom of carrying your weapon in any category of that tickles your fancy...and if you make it back home alive thank God and appreciate the diversity of options for defending yourselves.
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Old 03-05-2013, 21:49   #613
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Lot's of "Maybes"...here's another one: "Maybe" you guys should just take a break from this thread, go get some fresh air, and just enjoy the freedom of carrying your weapon in any category of that tickles your fancy...and if you make it back home alive thank God and appreciate the diversity of options for defending yourselves.
Zeebra, I'm with ya when you're right!! I second the motion and move to adjourn.
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Old 03-05-2013, 22:46   #614
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Zeebra, I'm with ya when you're right!! I second the motion and move to adjourn.
Me, too. This thread has run its course and is ready to be retired. I doubt if anything new is going to appear here.
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:02   #615
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Me, too. This thread has run its course and is ready to be retired. I doubt if anything new is going to appear here.
Ok, let's try this for new.

In the Colorado Senate hearings the other day on their seven anti-gun laws, a woman who testified had been raped and talked about how she might have prevented it if she had a gun. A Democratic state Senator responded and told her that statistics show that if she had had a gun it is more likely she would have been hurt or killed with that gun (think she was already hurt by the rape) than defended herself with it.

So, the question is, if the stats are even close to true (I know they are often twisted greatly by the anti-gun crowd, such as labeling suicides as "accidents"), are you more likely to have your gun used against you if it is C3 than C1, because you are more likely to have it ripped away while taking the time to rack it or having a jam or other issue while trying to chamber a round?
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:20   #616
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So, the question is, if the stats are even close to true (I know they are often twisted greatly by the anti-gun crowd, such as labeling suicides as "accidents"), are you more likely to have your gun used against you if it is C3 than C1, because you are more likely to have it ripped away while taking the time to rack it or having a jam or other issue while trying to chamber a round?
Since every situation is different, you never know. However, the worst situation possible is when the BG is holding your weapon--and definitely the possibility is greater that in those couple seconds it takes to load a round could allow the BG time to turn the altercation to hand-to-hand time instead of double-tap time.

However, it's just as possible (since every scenario is different) that C3 fans could turn your question around and say that if your weapon is taken out of your hands in a C1 condition, then the BG could get a shot at you right away whereas if your weapon was in the C3 condition, you could perhaps get cover or struggle for the weapon without it being loaded in the BG's hands.

The whole C1/C3 discussion goes out the window if you can't even draw your weapon because you get jumped...and sadly that's how most rapes happen. SA (situation awareness) is the first discussion I think is needed before C1/C3 stuff...if you have a 220-pound BG pulling you down (whether you're male or female), you ain't going to be drawing anything out of your pants or purse, but if you are able to, C1 could save your life...or a good fast-open knife can get the guy off your back to give you enough time to either run away or perhaps draw your weapon.
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:45   #617
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Ok, let's try this for new.

In the Colorado Senate hearings the other day on their seven anti-gun laws, a woman who testified had been raped and talked about how she might have prevented it if she had a gun. A Democratic state Senator responded and told her that statistics show that if she had had a gun it is more likely she would have been hurt or killed with that gun (think she was already hurt by the rape) than defended herself with it.

So, the question is, if the stats are even close to true (I know they are often twisted greatly by the anti-gun crowd, such as labeling suicides as "accidents"), are you more likely to have your gun used against you if it is C3 than C1, because you are more likely to have it ripped away while taking the time to rack it or having a jam or other issue while trying to chamber a round?

If I'm jumped, I'd be doing everything I can to create distance between me and BG (in which case I'll have time to bring my g29 carried in c3 into action). But if creating distance is impossible, I'll be reaching for my double-edged cold steel push dagger. At close distances (2-5 feet) it is my firm belief that a good double-edged weapon is as effective, or even more effective, as a gun (in trained and strong hands, of course). Such knife not only impacts with its tip (like a bullet), but also with it sides (which bullet can't do). Also, it will be MUCH harder for BG to get my push dagger away from me than to take a gun away from me in close-combat encounter (you can probably figure out why).


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Old 03-06-2013, 08:51   #618
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Ok, let's try this for new.

In the Colorado Senate hearings the other day on their seven anti-gun laws, a woman who testified had been raped and talked about how she might have prevented it if she had a gun. A Democratic state Senator responded and told her that statistics show that if she had had a gun it is more likely she would have been hurt or killed with that gun (think she was already hurt by the rape) than defended herself with it.
A tv reporter last night said the Colorado Democrat's statements regarding an armed defender's chances were based upon demonstrably false assertions that were disproved almost the minute the anti-rights comrades floated the lies.
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:55   #619
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If I'm jumped, I'd be doing everything I can to create distance between me and BG (in which case I'll have time to bring my weapon into action). But if creating distance is impossible, I'll be reaching for my double-edged cold steel push dagger. At close distances (2-5 feet) it is my firm belief that a good double-edged weapon is as effective, or even more effective, as a gun (in trained and strong hands, of course). Such knife not only impacts with its tip (like a bullet), but also with it sides (which bullet can't do). Also, it will be MUCH harder for BG to get my push dagger away from me than to take a gun away from me in close-combat encounter (you can probably figure out why).


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Or if you are jumped and getting the **** kicked out of you by multible attackers while you are on the ground you can try and draw your weapon from its holster and find the time under stress, pain etc to also rack the slide. Brilliant.
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:03   #620
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Or if you are jumped and getting the **** kicked out of you by multible attackers while you are on the ground you can try and draw your weapon from its holster and find the time under stress, pain etc to also rack the slide. Brilliant.
Where and when might this scenario happen if the principles of situational awareness are followed in a disciplined way? If locations where such an attack would likely happen are avoided, how would this scenario be a plausible threat?

I'm challenging the reality of this kind of assault in the spirit of trying to understand the logical, factual basis of need for C1 preparedness. I'd like to get down to a straight forward, factual explanation for using such attack scenarios to justify the C1 carry mode. Somewhere there must be a substantive explanation beyond "it can happen any time, any where".

Outside of a home invasion, where or when might rape happen if SA/danger avoidance is carefully practiced? Other than parking lots, alleys, isolated park locations and other avoidable places, where are we vulnerable to surprise threats?

Again, if responsible people follow principles of situational awareness and purposefully avoid potential danger spots, when would such attacks happen?

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