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Old 03-04-2013, 17:46   #581
PhotoFeller
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[/QUOTE=Smooth_squeeze;20056226]
The "method" I don't find persuasive or like consists in making those who prefer C1 to feel like they are not being reasonable. You haven't engaged in that, from my recollection. There are others, and I'm not trying to start something, so they will remain nameless, who have a whole spiel about this. And they also tend to favor lots of training requirements to get a CCP. Slippery slope stuff in my book. My purpose in saying this is not to get into an argument, just to say what I think and feel. One of these people, in this thread, I found to be so difficult to deal with that I put his posts on "ignore" or whatever the resource is.

I also have an issue of calling the Glock with one in the chamber "dangerous". Just about anything can be dangerous depending on the circumstances. Is my little pocket knife dangerous? Sure it can be. Is my big pocket knife dangerous? Sure it can be. Is my great big honkin' Bowie knife dangerous? Sure it can be. Are they all inherently dangerous? Hmmm... I'd have to think about that, but yes, I suppose they are if they are handled incorrectly or unsafely. What does that prove? They can be dangerous if handled unsafely. So can a gun in C3. Maybe not from a normal ND, but dropping it in the wrong place, or putting it into a hot oven, or smashing it with a sledge hammer, can and most likely are, dangerous from a particular point of view.

The fact there are NDs proves one thing: people are careless, or accidents can happen, and a moment of inattentiveness can cause an ND.

I suppose my overall thought on C1 vs C3 vs C1 with a manual safety has to do with the idea that a mechanical safety will always prevent a mishap, which it won't. The best safety is the one between one's ears. And for those who don't think their brain is enough, which is a very reasonable position to take depending on circumstances, having a manual/mechanical/positively engaged safety, is fine.

Tell me, (my apologies if I missed this somewhere in this humongous thread) do you think revolvers should also have a manual safety? (Maybe some do, but I don't know of them.)[/QUOTE]

Your style and tone are appreciated.

I don't object to C1 with a Glock if the person is truly proficient, sensible enough to fully appreciate the lethality of his weapon in the presence of other folks, and has concluded that the risks of his environment are commensurate with the risk of carrying the gun chambered without a manual safety. You would say there is no risk if the trigger isn't pulled; while I agree, I also know humans do sometimes screw up, as you've previously conceded.

My objection to the approach of proponents of C1 is that they generally give no room for consideration of another carry mode. C1 guys almost always say, as you do, find another firearm with the safety features that suit you. While I understand your arguments for having a round ready to go, I don't understand the absolute disagreement with a well considered decision to opt for C3 with a Glock. Its a philosophical standoff I just don't understand. You probably are less rigid than others.

I have said revolvers are a safer platform, so a manual safety isn't necessary unless the trigger has been altered to reduce pull weight.

You and I aren't so far apart. The tone of your statements make them interesting and helpful to understand your point of view.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 03-04-2013 at 18:02..
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Old 03-04-2013, 17:47   #582
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This thread is becoming legendary, and has now made it's way to be talked about on other forums. On another forum, a member talked about seven CCTV videos he showed during some of his training. In those videos, they showed people carrying C3 that were wounded or killed as they tried to rack the slide, or in many cases, drew their weapon, aimed and pulled the trigger, not remembering in the heat of battle that they were carrying C3 until it didn't go bang.

He posted only one video, which I won't post here, because it was pretty gruesome. A man was shot, and then drew his gun, and then it's hard to tell if he pulled the trigger or knew all along that he needed to rack it, but had to rack it three times, because the first time it didn't take, the second time it appeared to jam/ftf (the slide was clearly not in battery), and then the third time it chambered properly. By then, he was shot two more times. He might have gotten one shot off, before the gun was kicked out of his hand and shortly after they left, he went and sat down, and then a few moments later slumped over and passed out/died. Again, gruesome, so I wouldn't even consider posting the link here.

The point being, whatever method you carry, please practice, practice, practice so that as much as possible the act becomes as close to automatic as possible.

That means that if you are carrying a 1911 or Sig or FNP or something with a manual safety, you need to have thousands upon thousands of presentations where without thinking as the gun clears leather (or kydex) you disengage the safety, and when you are reversing those steps, you re-engage the safety before holstering.

If you are going C3 with a Glock or M&P or the like, you need thousands upon thousands of presentations of your weapon, where you rack the slide during your draw.

If you are carrying a Kahr C3, then stop and get a different gun. Because you can't count on it or any other gun prone to have jams when you slingshot the slide, if you are going to carry C3.
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Old 03-04-2013, 18:35   #583
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15 pages and no one has yet discovered that this is merely a personal choice?

Carry with one in the chamber, if you like.

Carry with a full mag, and one out of the chamber, if you like.

Carry a gun with no magazine and insert each bullet individually, if you like.

Carry a gun and leave all your bullets at home, if you like.

Carry a revolver with the hammer down on a loaded chamber, if you like.

Carry a revolver with the hammer down on an empty chamber, if you like.

Hey, guess what, if you are carrying a gun, you've made at least one good decision.


Just go with that.

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Old 03-04-2013, 18:46   #584
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
15 pages and no one has yet discovered that this is merely a personal choice?

Carry with one in the chamber, if you like.

Carry with a full mag, and one out of the chamber, if you like.

Carry a gun with no magazine and insert each bullet individually, if you like.

Carry a gun and leave all your bullets at home, if you like.

Carry a revolver with the hammer down on a loaded chamber, if you like.

Carry a revolver with the hammer down on an empty chamber, if you like.

Hey, guess what, if you are carrying a gun, you've made at least one good decision.


Just go with that.

Well reasonable person would think it was that simple. Several people on here have had what I would call a reasonable discussion on the subject. There has been a bunch of one liner replies from fellas that evidently think that there is only one way to skin a cat.
Then there had been a few that have been, well, idiots is the only word that I can think of that is ok to post.

Thanks for being one of the reasonabl ones
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Old 03-04-2013, 19:36   #585
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Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
This thread is becoming legendary, and has now made it's way to be talked about on other forums. On another forum, a member talked about seven CCTV videos he showed during some of his training. In those videos, they showed people carrying C3 that were wounded or killed as they tried to rack the slide, or in many cases, drew their weapon, aimed and pulled the trigger, not remembering in the heat of battle that they were carrying C3 until it didn't go bang.

He posted only one video, which I won't post here, because it was pretty gruesome. A man was shot, and then drew his gun, and then it's hard to tell if he pulled the trigger or knew all along that he needed to rack it, but had to rack it three times, because the first time it didn't take, the second time it appeared to jam/ftf (the slide was clearly not in battery), and then the third time it chambered properly. By then, he was shot two more times. He might have gotten one shot off, before the gun was kicked out of his hand and shortly after they left, he went and sat down, and then a few moments later slumped over and passed out/died. Again, gruesome, so I wouldn't even consider posting the link here.

The point being, whatever method you carry, please practice, practice, practice so that as much as possible the act becomes as close to automatic as possible.

That means that if you are carrying a 1911 or Sig or FNP or something with a manual safety, you need to have thousands upon thousands of presentations where without thinking as the gun clears leather (or kydex) you disengage the safety, and when you are reversing those steps, you re-engage the safety before holstering.

If you are going C3 with a Glock or M&P or the like, you need thousands upon thousands of presentations of your weapon, where you rack the slide during your draw.

If you are carrying a Kahr C3, then stop and get a different gun. Because you can't count on it or any other gun prone to have jams when you slingshot the slide, if you are going to carry C3.
Post the vid, or at least the link to the forum's page where the vid is... I'm just curious.
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Old 03-04-2013, 22:05   #586
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
[/QUOTE=Smooth_squeeze;20056226]
The "method" I don't find persuasive or like consists in making those who prefer C1 to feel like they are not being reasonable. You haven't engaged in that, from my recollection. There are others, and I'm not trying to start something, so they will remain nameless, who have a whole spiel about this. And they also tend to favor lots of training requirements to get a CCP. Slippery slope stuff in my book. My purpose in saying this is not to get into an argument, just to say what I think and feel. One of these people, in this thread, I found to be so difficult to deal with that I put his posts on "ignore" or whatever the resource is.

I also have an issue of calling the Glock with one in the chamber "dangerous". Just about anything can be dangerous depending on the circumstances. Is my little pocket knife dangerous? Sure it can be. Is my big pocket knife dangerous? Sure it can be. Is my great big honkin' Bowie knife dangerous? Sure it can be. Are they all inherently dangerous? Hmmm... I'd have to think about that, but yes, I suppose they are if they are handled incorrectly or unsafely. What does that prove? They can be dangerous if handled unsafely. So can a gun in C3. Maybe not from a normal ND, but dropping it in the wrong place, or putting it into a hot oven, or smashing it with a sledge hammer, can and most likely are, dangerous from a particular point of view.

The fact there are NDs proves one thing: people are careless, or accidents can happen, and a moment of inattentiveness can cause an ND.

I suppose my overall thought on C1 vs C3 vs C1 with a manual safety has to do with the idea that a mechanical safety will always prevent a mishap, which it won't. The best safety is the one between one's ears. And for those who don't think their brain is enough, which is a very reasonable position to take depending on circumstances, having a manual/mechanical/positively engaged safety, is fine.

Tell me, (my apologies if I missed this somewhere in this humongous thread) do you think revolvers should also have a manual safety? (Maybe some do, but I don't know of them.)
Your style and tone are appreciated.

I don't object to C1 with a Glock if the person is truly proficient, sensible enough to fully appreciate the lethality of his weapon in the presence of other folks, and has concluded that the risks of his environment are commensurate with the risk of carrying the gun chambered without a manual safety. You would say there is no risk if the trigger isn't pulled; while I agree, I also know humans do sometimes screw up, as you've previously conceded.

My objection to the approach of proponents of C1 is that they generally give no room for consideration of another carry mode. C1 guys almost always say, as you do, find another firearm with the safety features that suit you. While I understand your arguments for having a round ready to go, I don't understand the absolute disagreement with a well considered decision to opt for C3 with a Glock. Its a philosophical standoff I just don't understand. You probably are less rigid than others.

I have said revolvers are a safer platform, so a manual safety isn't necessary unless the trigger has been altered to reduce pull weight.

You and I aren't so far apart. The tone of your statements make them interesting and helpful to understand your point of view.
[/QUOTE]

Thank you again. I put your last comments in bold to make them stand out from the other texts.

Of course the weapon is lethal. That's the idea. I know that, and understand that it's not for everyone. With any gun, there is some risk involved if it's loaded. Heck, even an unloaded gun can be dangerous. It can be really dangerous to have in certain circumstances, even unloaded, for its mere presence, if noted, can bring on very undesirable reactions from others. Some people simply panic if they see a gun. Others do the same even if they see a pen knife. Is that rational? Sometimes yes, sometimes no, depending on what is going on.

I was unaware that other folks say if the Glock without a manually engaged safety is unsuitable for someone that they should find a gun with safety features that suits them. Thanks for the heads up.

Actually, since you mentioned an aftermarket safety that can be installed on your Glock was of interest to you, then I'd suggest you go for it. Modifying Glocks is quite common; if you want that one, fine by me. After all, it's your gun.

If you think I am in absolute disagreement with carrying a Glock in C3, you are mistaken. To each his own. If you prefer it, that's fine. If there turns out to be a large market for Glocks with a manual safety, I imagine Glock someday might offer it. Or maybe not. Would I buy one? Perhaps.

My FNP-45 has a safety, and DA/SA, as you know. Might I ever engage the safety? Of course, but most of the time it would simply go (if loaded) with a round in the chamber and the hammer down. Anytime I'm not actively engaged in shooting, I lower the hammer. DA is fine. Just takes some practice to perfect the squeeze and get good hits. One day recently, I shot perhaps a whole box of nothing but DA shots. Is it more difficult? You know it is. But the challenge is good, and afterwards, the DA is just that, a long, heavy trigger pull, not tough at all to master, IMHO. Others may have different results.

As for revolvers, I have a friend who has some revolvers, one a 357 Magnum, DA/SA, that had high quality trigger work done on it for shooting in SA. Way too light for me. Right about 2 lbs. That gun in the wrong hands could really be dangerous. But in my friend's hands, not a problem. Would a safety be beneficial on that gun? To some, perhaps. But I just shy away from it for the pull is soooo light, and my touch isn't good enough for me to do anything but shoot targets with it.

IMHO, a trigger on an auto in the 4 lb range is as light as I'd want to go, unless it's a dedicated target/competition gun.
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Old 03-04-2013, 22:28   #587
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Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
This thread is becoming legendary, and has now made it's way to be talked about on other forums. On another forum, a member talked about seven CCTV videos he showed during some of his training. In those videos, they showed people carrying C3 that were wounded or killed as they tried to rack the slide, or in many cases, drew their weapon, aimed and pulled the trigger, not remembering in the heat of battle that they were carrying C3 until it didn't go bang.

He posted only one video, which I won't post here, because it was pretty gruesome. A man was shot, and then drew his gun, and then it's hard to tell if he pulled the trigger or knew all along that he needed to rack it, but had to rack it three times, because the first time it didn't take, the second time it appeared to jam/ftf (the slide was clearly not in battery), and then the third time it chambered properly. By then, he was shot two more times. He might have gotten one shot off, before the gun was kicked out of his hand and shortly after they left, he went and sat down, and then a few moments later slumped over and passed out/died. Again, gruesome, so I wouldn't even consider posting the link here.

The point being, whatever method you carry, please practice, practice, practice so that as much as possible the act becomes as close to automatic as possible.

That means that if you are carrying a 1911 or Sig or FNP or something with a manual safety, you need to have thousands upon thousands of presentations where without thinking as the gun clears leather (or kydex) you disengage the safety, and when you are reversing those steps, you re-engage the safety before holstering.

If you are going C3 with a Glock or M&P or the like, you need thousands upon thousands of presentations of your weapon, where you rack the slide during your draw.

If you are carrying a Kahr C3, then stop and get a different gun. Because you can't count on it or any other gun prone to have jams when you slingshot the slide, if you are going to carry C3.

Your description of the video provided an ample mental picture of what we all know can happen. Thanks for not posting it.

I've carried the Kahr some, but not much. The slide is more difficult to rack than Glocks, but I've chambered snap caps without jams. The CW9 is a dandy pistol that I just haven't decided to keep or part with. Maybe I'll trade it for a Shield or a Sig, or a new camera.

Practice does make perfect, and I might find a self defense ranch somewhere that will coach an old peckerwood with bad knees on becoming a genteel pistolero (I always said I have no desire to become one, but the title is startin' to grow on me).

This has been a great experience for me, gents. Thanks for sharing your views and indulging mine.
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Old 03-04-2013, 23:24   #588
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Your description of the video provided an ample mental picture of what we all know can happen. Thanks for not posting it.

I've carried the Kahr some, but not much. The slide is more difficult to rack than Glocks, but I've chambered snap caps without jams. The CW9 is a dandy pistol that I just haven't decided to keep or part with. Maybe I'll trade it for a Shield or a Sig, or a new camera.

Practice does make perfect, and I might find a self defense ranch somewhere that will coach an old peckerwood with bad knees on becoming a genteel pistolero (I always said I have no desire to become one, but the title is startin' to grow on me).

This has been a great experience for me, gents. Thanks for sharing your views and indulging mine.
I have about 1500 round through a PM9. After about the 1000 round mark, if I'm really conscious about an aggressive slingshot - racking hard and letting my hand rip off the frame when it hits the rearward stop, it is mostly reliable. However, in this 1500+ rounds, I have literally dozens of fail to feeds when racking vs. depressing slide release as indicated in Kahrs manual.

This is a gun that simply is not made to carry C3. If you are, you need to be practicing racking with live rounds, because you will find that if you aren't almost violent in the move, you will get some fail to feeds where the top round nose dives and is jammed into the feed ramp requiring you to drop the mag, adjust the top round and try again.

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Old 03-05-2013, 06:05   #589
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Naaa, that’s you trying to, ‘slip the lead’ again. I’ve decided you deserve another answer. (Feel free to address anything I’ve written in anyway you like. I don’t care!)

You, really, don’t have the slightest idea what you’re talking about - Do you! Because I owe it to this board, in general, and to you, in particular, I got more to say. (There’s just something about giving you, ‘unfettered intellectual rein’ that really annoys me.) For the sake of other family-orientated gun owners, like myself, I am, now, going to address your latest comments:

You’re still qualifying your assertions with the word, ‘routinely’. This modifier implies frequency; and most armed citizens I know don’t handle their pistols anywhere near as much as you insist upon asserting. Out in the real world these, ‘Nervous Nellie’ switching behaviors simply do not occur among people who are experienced gunmen, and licensed-to-carry, (‘LTCF’)

I ought to know. Over the years I’ve corresponded with dozens of these people, right here, on this board. (Where’s David Armstrong when you need him!) I’ve been carrying semi-automatic pistols in C-3 for more than 3 decades. So far, I haven’t had any sort of problem with my draw - My C-3 draw! Neither have I shot myself in the foot, yet!

I’ve, also, attended numerous IDPA matches where there was extensive gun-handling and manipulation. Yes, there were moments when I’ve watched pistol competitors push themselves hard; and, yes again, I did begin to become concerned that something might go wrong; BUT, in all these years, I’ve never seen someone I regarded as a competent pistolero make a serious mistake with a pistol. (I think this is an impressive firearm-handling, safety record - Don’t you!)

Apparently what is, ‘routine’ and highly probable in your world isn’t equally, ‘routine’ and highly probable in mine; and, I’m starting to get the sense that, ‘behind all the noise you make’ you’re nowhere near as experienced with firearms as I am. (I’m correct; aren’t I!) I’ve been carrying in C-3, now, for many years. Unfortunately I’m, also, not able to say that in all this time I’ve never walked into one of your much-dreaded, ‘CQB instant ambushes’. I have; and (Ready?) I didn’t need your over-vaunted C-1 carry in order to get myself out of trouble. C-3 worked just fine for me!

In fact, my EDC pistol is, right here, on my desk and in its usual C-3 condition as I type. Contrary to your imaginary, ‘switcheroo mentality’ my C-3 EDC pistol has constantly remained in this condition for, at least, the past 6 months (maybe longer)! There ain’t none of your ‘frequent and routine’, back and forth, C-3 carry going on at my house. All of this store-to-store, street-to-street, neighborhood-to-neighborhood, slide racking you insist is taking place, simply doesn’t happen in the real world! ‘How’ do I know? Because I live in the real world - Not some imaginary cyberspace alternate reality where you apparently dwell. Another thing: Unlike yourself (and that gun course you took at the Sheriff’s Office) I’m a real pistolero with a gunman’s safety habits and reflexive instincts.

During the past 6 months my C-3 EDC piece has been disassembled and reassembled for cleaning, at least, a half dozen times - No worry! My pistol has been left out, exposed to others, handled by my wife, one or two friends; and, all the while, their personal safety has never been in any real jeopardy of accidental discharge.

Two days ago I pulled into an isolated parking lot and parked my car right next to a pair of very unsavory looking dudes. They had their hands in their pockets; they were watching all around the lot; and, for sure, there wasn’t a hint of a smile on their faces! Know what? Unlike the fictitious internet scenario you weave I didn’t get all antsy, and switch to C-1 before I got out of the car. What for?

When I was unsure of, ‘Why’ they were there; and, ‘What’ they were doing I simply obeyed my usual personal security instincts, and did the following: First, I kept close track of their concealed hands. Next, I made sure that all of my car doors and windows were locked. Then I checked that the seat belt, and the front flap on my over-garment wouldn’t prevent me from getting to my pistol IF I really needed to.

ALL OF THESE PRECAUTIONS ARE NECESSARY, VIABLE, AND PRAGMATIC ALTERNATIVES TO YOUR RIDICULOUS METHODS OF SWITCHEROO GUN-HANDLING! (You don’t really know what you’re supposed to be doing with an EDC gun, now, do you!)

‘Why’ should I jeopardize my own personal safety, or that of my friends and family by resorting to any of your, ‘routine’ switcheroo gun-handling behaviors when it’s not really necessary for me to do so? Maybe you’re a, ‘Nervous Nellie’; but, me, I’m an experienced gunman who knows when, and when not to be concerned. These, ‘routine’ internet gun-handling behaviors you assert are, simply, not indicative of life with a gun out in the real world.

All this, ‘extra risk’ you’re so quick to assume, simply, does NOT take place! Want to know something else? Your presumed, ‘better’, ‘smarter’, pistol-handling recommendations are NOT shared by the people who manufactured your Glock! (Imagine that, huh!) Read this:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/blog.php?b=576

Now, we ARE in agreement on the risks involved in both drawing and reholstering a pistol. That actually is a, ‘given’; these activities are always inherently dangerous! This does NOT, however, address the other, more significant dangers of having a, ‘lazy trigger finger’. In my experience, if someone is going to have a safety problem with a gun, it’s more than likely going to be with Jeff Cooper’s Gun Safety Rules #2 and #3, rather than from any holster work.

THIS IS WHERE MUCH SAFER C-3 CARRY GIVES EVERY PISTOLERO - BOTH HIGHLY SKILLED, OR ONLY CASUALLY SO - A VALUABLE ADVANTAGE IN PERSONAL AND SOCIAL GUN HANDLING SAFETY! (That is an irrefutable fact!)

Neither does it matter how many times other respondents in this thread have used the word, ‘routinely’. YOU have been using this word in an entirely different context. You use, ‘routinely’ as a modifier in order to qualify your arguments and, thus, limit the scope of any disagreement against what you have to say. You have, also, expanded the meaning of the word, ‘routinely’ beyond what others (including myself) intend to imply. Your use of the word, ‘routinely’ suggests much greater frequency than what those of us who carry in C-3 would ever realistically resort to. Now, if I can find all of them, I’m going to address each of your subsequent points:

Point #1: I do NOT believe that civilians who insist upon carrying their semi-auto pistols in C-1 are anymore skillful, tougher, or more competent than those who carry in C-3. I’m beginning to tire of writing this, but, ‘It ain’t all about you!’ As long as American society remains reasonably stable there is little or no need, and little or no justification, for a vast majority of civilians to expose everyone they comes into daily contact with to the inherent dangers of C-1 carry - For many (but, admittedly, not all) American civilians, C-1 carry is flat-out extraneous, as well as needlessly reckless to others.

(I’m going back to, ‘Do unto others as you would have others do unto you!’) Neither do I think it ethical for any gunman to selfishly place the personal safety of others - innocent others - in jeopardy because that gunman wants to be a local, ‘Glockeroo Badass’ and walk around all day long ready to engage some mysterious (or imagined) opponent inside of a highly unlikely, ‘instantaneous CQB ambush’.

THIS DANGEROUS AND POTENTIALLY LETHAL METHOD OF PISTOL-HANDLING IS WHAT IS HAPPENING ALL ACROSS AMERICA, RIGHT NOW, AS WE DEBATE THE SUBJECT; AND IT IS WRONG!

(To use your term) ‘Comfort’, psychological or otherwise, should have little, if anything, to do with how a person carries an EDC pistol. SAFETY to one’s own self, and to others should always come first. Don’t make the mistake of thinking that I don’t know just how much practice and training it takes to be genuinely proficient with a pistol - I KNOW! I’ll tell you something else, too: Many of these, ‘hot shot’ Glockeroos I see carrying their pistols around in C-1,

DO NOT HAVE EITHER THE TRAINING, THE PERSONAL ACUMEN, OR THE LIFE EXPERIENCE THEY NEED IN ORDER TO HANDLE AN EDC PISTOL WELL INSIDE AN URBAN COMMUNITY ENVIRONMENT. (That is an, ‘indisputable fact’!)

Point #2: You’re forcing me to repeat myself: There are a lot of other ways and other behaviors that a person NEEDS TO DO - besides simply carrying a pistol in C-1 - in order to be genuinely ready to effectively defend himself. Other than this, I have nothing to disagree with here. I’m only going to add that, in recent years, I’ve begun carrying my EDC @ 2:00 o’clock and on the outside my belt. I use polymer holsters, too. All these changes are designed to pare my draw times down to as little as possible; AND, these things really do work! (As I’ve previously stated: A .5 second Mossad draw time is, for someone who’s well practiced, a little slow.)

Point #3: ??? (I couldn’t find it.) With regard to your presumed need to use your support hand in order to get an opponent off you? (Here, it’s interesting to notice that you weaken your own argument by using the expression, ‘very unlikely’.) All I can say is, ‘Spoken like a true Occidental!’ My old Tai Chi Chuan teacher would get a, ‘real kick’ out of that remark!

Rather than simply being in C-1, rather than quickly tying up both of your hands, what you MUST do, first, is to get off the other guy’s vertical body centerline! (With all your supposed expertise you didn’t know that - Did you!) There are a number of different ways to do this; but, I have no intention of teaching any of these things, here.

I will say, however, that for someone who already knows how to fight, you do not need to, ‘sacrifice’ either your pistol or support arm when you are suddenly engaged at close quarters! From hard-won experience I, also, know that, sometimes, and at extremely close quarters, waiting to draw your pistol can actually be an advantage! (They don’t teach any of this in the gun schools, though; do they!)

Point #4: ??? (I couldn’t find this one, either.) Am I to assume that your comments on the missing Point #4 are about police officers getting shot at extremely close range? Man, you haven’t got so much as, ‘a clue’ about what’s really going on - Now; do you! I (almost) hate to be the one to tell you this; …… BUT, you seem to completely misunderstand the REAL DANGERS police officers have to face when they're successfully attacked AND, then, lose the contest at extremely close quarters.

I’m not going to repeat information I’ve already addressed in earlier posts; but, I will direct your attention to the research work done by retired Sheriff’s Department Deputy Lieutenant, Dave Spaulding. ** Perhaps Dave Spaulding will be able to get through to you where this, ‘magnificent pistolero’ (Me! ) has, otherwise, so completely failed to do so. Remember where I told you that,

IF YOU’RE SUCCESSFULLY JUMPED AT CLOSE QUARTERS, THEN, IT’S EITHER YOUR OWN FAULT, OR ELSE IT’S SIMPLY YOUR TIME; AND GOD REQUIRES IT OF YOU.

C-3, or C-1 carry has little, if anything, to do with getting assaulted or shot at very close quarters; AND as I’ve, also, already said: THIS is the most often repeated internet rationale for walking around in public, ‘cocked, locked, and ready-to-go’. (The average civilian’s chance of this happening are, roughly, the equivalent of me winning the Powerball lottery next week! Most likely it’s not going to happen.)

Point #5: (This one I’ve been able to locate!) I’ve said it, and said it, and said it; but, you just ain’t, ‘getting the message’ and are unwilling to let this one go. STOP USING THE WORD, ‘ROUTINELY’ inside the narrow definitions I, now, realize that you prefer to couch your arguments in. One last time: The unlikely scenarios and behaviors you assert ARE NOT TAKING PLACE OUT IN THE REAL WORLD! Just because you insist upon repeating your argument DOES NOT make any of it true!

Over the years Glock Talk has had several people swear up and down that their Glock pistols went off, unexpectedly, while they were in the holster! I’m going to guess that, IN ACCORD WITH RECENT CHANGES GLOCK, GmbH HAS MADE on their 4th (and now 3rd) generation trigger bars, the people who’ve insisted that their Glock pistols, ‘just went off’ while in the holster might have actually been telling the truth!

There have, also, been reports on this board of other holstered Glocks firing while in the holster. (It might depend on, ‘What’ holster is being used as well as the physical coordination and activity level of the wearer.) Now, one of your paragraphs requires special attention. (Man, this is B.S. internet rationalize like I’ve never seen before!)



Ahh, …… who says you can’t argue both sides of it? (You do.) Nice to see, though, that you’ve finally caught up with the most glaring discrepancy in your own argument: Firearm Safety, And Safe-Handling Procedures! Much of what you’ve previously posted has completely ignored the usual habits of an experienced pistolero!

Kudos! You’ve finally shown an editor’s ability to analyze a written argument - This time, in your own carefully contrived words. (That wasn’t condescending; I promise!) Remember where I told you that you are using hyperbole and, 'sophistic examples'? Well, now you've really outdone yourself! Your logic on this, your most recent premise, is as twisted as it is seriously flawed.

In, 'alpha or beta' relationships, the fact that the statement, ‘Alpha is true.’ happens to be correct does NOT automatically imply that, ‘Beta is false.’ Beta may, or may not be either true or false. The problem with your, 'alpha statement', here, is that it is NOT stated correctly. (In other words your argument is sophistic!)

Your thoughts and opinions might sound real good on the Internet; but, as I’ve repeatedly pointed out: Your cyberspace definitions of reality, AND reality, itself, are NOT the same thing. So far, the only person who has asserted that, ‘routinely’ switching between C-3, and C-1 carry increases the odds of an AD/ND is, …… YOU; (and, a few gullible people have gone along with your specious line of fakakta reasoning).

I have now repeated, and repeated, and repeated that I’ve been carrying in C-3 for a prolonged period-of-time; AND, out in the real world, I HAVE NO SUCH, ‘ROUTINE’ PROBLEMS WITH C-3 CARRY. (Did you get it that time?) You have, albeit indirectly, just confessed that you know, ‘Why’ too! Among other talents, I have an experienced gunman’s safe gun-handling habits!

Furthermore, the fact that someone regularly follows routine, firearm-safety protocols does not, in any way, guarantee that an unexpected AD/ND will not occur. We don't live in a perfect world. The only thing that regularly following normal firearm safety protocols guarantees is that less - rather than more - firearm AD/ND’s are likely to occur - Nothing else! The point I would make is that, beyond Cooper’s Four Safety Rules,

C-3 CARRY IS LIKE A, ‘FIFTH FIREARM SAFETY PROTOCOL’. IF YOU USE C-3 CARRY THEN YOU ARE EVEN LESS LIKELY TO EXPERIENCE AN UNEXPECTED AD/ND; AND THIS IS TRUE FOR THE GUNMAN, HIMSELF, AS WELL AS FOR ALL OTHERS WHO MIGHT COME INTO CONTACT WITH HIM AND HIS GUN.

As far as I’m concerned: Anyone who is enough of a, ‘gun schmuck’ to do all the, ‘routine’ C-1/C-3 condition switches which you insist are taking place, deserves what he gets; and, probably, shouldn’t be carrying a pistol to begin with.

One final point: Someone has mentioned (NOT YOU, OK!) that the shooting schools teach only C-1 carry. Well, duh, it’s a shooting school! What do you think shooting school students want? What do you think shooting school students expect to receive for their money? (Shooting schools are, ‘for profit’ corporations; aren’t they! They need to provide a certain amount of entertainment value in their curriculums.)

Problems arise because it’s usually civilians who are being run through these schools; and, let’s be perfectly honest: These civilians want a certain amount of, ‘badass thrills’ for their money! Personally, I fault many of these shooting schools for their strong tendency to turn out, ‘civilian commandos’ rather than, 'armed civilians'! (A novel thought; isn’t it!) Most people with LTCF’s are NOT commandos; they are NOT police officers; instead, they are armed and only modestly trained civilians. Everybody needs to remember that,

SKILL WITH A FIREARM - AND, ESPECIALLY WITH A PISTOL - IS A DEPRECIATING PHYSICAL ASSET.

If you don’t regularly practice and refresh your firearm-handling skill sets, then you stand to lose, at least, some measure of whatever your former proficiency level used to be. There’s, also, the matter of, ‘fight or flight’ physiological response,

WHICH HAS THE POWER TO SIGNIFICANTLY ALTER, OR EVEN CHANGE, ALL OF A PERSON’S NORMAL PHYSICAL REACTIONS.

So, what’s the, ‘nitty gritty’? Even when you know what you’re supposed to be doing, even when you follow all of the safety rules, even when you’re heavily practiced, you’re still better off - NOT SWITCHING BETWEEN, BUT - regularly carrying in C-3.

Unless, of course, you’re in a war zone; but, even then, several of my uncles served in the South Pacific Theater during World War II; and the Corps required them to both download their pistols as well as to carry them in C-3. Know what? I never heard any of them complain about being handicapped by either downloading or carrying a 1911 in C-3. Contrary to another one of your remarks: It is NOT a personal decision to carry in either C-3, or C-1.

FOR MOST CIVILIANS IT IS, OR SHOULD BE, A SOCIAL DECISION THAT INVOLVES MORE THAN JUST ONE’S OWN LITTLE SELF, OR ANYONE’S PRESUMED NEED TO, ‘GO AROUND COCKED, LOCKED, AND READY-TO-GO’ ALL OF THE TIME! (Earth shattering concept; isn’t it!)

In order to experience this sort of a self-centered, but exceedingly popular, gun-handling myth in action, you’ve got to go onto an internet gun forum where all of the strongly opinionated, gun school commandos; and always, 'ready-to-go' Glockeroo cowboys repeatedly encourage one another to exercise such free rein with absolutely everybody's personal safety - Including, of course, their own! We are NOT commandos. We are NOT police officers. We are armed civilians who should be smart enough, skilled enough, civil enough, and socially well-adjusted enough to act accordingly.

I’ve been carrying semiautomatic pistols in C-3 for a long, long time. I have NONE of your imagined problems with C-3 carry; AND, while I’m forced to admit that I’m not the pistolero I used to be before the heart attack, (That guy was a, ‘master pistolero’. ) I’m still plenty good enough with a pistol; and I intend to continue to work to regain as much of my former shooting ability as possible.


** http://www.handgunsmag.com/2010/09/2...pens_gunfight/
Arc Angel what you've just said ... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul...
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:09   #590
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I have abut 1500 round through a PM9. After about the 1000 round mark, if I'm really conscious about an aggressive slingshot - racking hard and letting my hand rip off the frame when it hits the rearward stop, it is mostly reliable. However, in this 1500+ rounds, I have literally dozens of fail to feeds when racking vs. depressing slide release as indicated in Kahrs manual.

This is a gun that simply is not made to carry C3. If you are, you need to be practicing racking with live rounds, because you will find that if you aren't almost violent in the move, you will get some fail to feeds where the top round nose dives and is jammed into the feed ramp requiring you to drop the mag, adjust the top round and try again.

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Have on of the first PM9s also and you are right on. Without a good slingshot from slide lock it will not chamber a round reliably.
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:22   #591
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Arc Angel what you've just said ... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul...
You have just taken a gentlemanly discussion of issues to being personal. Effectively, you've displayed your true self.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:15   #592
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You have just taken a gentlemanly discussion of issues to being personal. Effectively, you've displayed your true self.
And you have shown you have no sense of humor. If you found the value in his post then you probably see the value in carrying with an empty chamber. This whole discussion is a joke. Lets all have tea and discuss the the finer points of carrying with an empty chamber as long as we do a press check and your gun is empty. If you carry with an empty chamber you are doing it wrong from a defensive stand point and intentionally putting yourself at a disadvantage. This may be because of your own inability to handle a firearm properly. If this is the case then the world would be a better place if you either get some good quality training or just leave your gun at home. Anyone who thinks anything else is just wrong.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:17   #593
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And you have shown you have no sense of humor. If you found the value in his post then you probably see the value in carrying with an empty chamber. This whole discussion is a joke. Lets all have tea and discuss the the finer points of carrying with an empty chamber as long as we do a press check and your gun is empty. If you carry with an empty chamber you are doing it wrong from a defensive stand point and intentionally putting yourself at a disadvantage. This may be because of your own inability to handle a firearm properly. If this is the case then the world would be a better place if you either get some good quality training or just leave your gun at home. Anyone who thinks anything else is just wrong.


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Old 03-05-2013, 07:41   #594
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Arc Angel what you've just said ... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul...
Lmao.
One of the greatest movie quotes ever
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:21   #595
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...the world would be a better place if you either get some good quality training or just leave your gun at home.
I don't understand your point of view, but a lot of others agree with it. What I'm still trying to sort out is why there is such rigidity in your position.

I've been handling guns of all kinds for 60 years, gun safety is my first objective and I prefer C3. What's wrong with that?

Some people are new to concealed carry and would prefer C3 while they're on the learning curve. Is that wrong?

Ultra-conservative revolver owners may carry with an empty chamber. This isn't necessary, but its their preference.

A friend of mine holds a private pilot's license, has been flying for decades, but he flies only during clear days. He doesn't need more training, the airplane has instruments, but thats his preference at this point in his life.

Why are these personal choices patently wrong? Is it because when a gun is designed to be carried with one in the chamber, thats the only way it can 'properly' be carried? If an airplane is capable of IFR operation, should it only be flown in stormy weather?

Why does it have to be your way or the highway?

What time is tea?

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Old 03-05-2013, 08:37   #596
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Just go with Condition Fife and let everyone else do what they want! :-)
But really, it's their weapon anyway and their responsibility...enough silliness already, especially since many of us will never need to draw our weapon in self defense as many times as we assume we will...
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:38   #597
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I don't understand your point of view, but a lot of others agree with it. What I'm still trying to sort out is why there is such rigidity in your position.

I've been handling guns of all kinds for 60 years, gun safety is my first objective and I prefer C3. What's wrong with that?

Some people are new to concealed carry and would prefer C3 while they're on the learning curve. Is that wrong?

Ultra-conservative revolver owners carry with an empty chamber. This isn't necessary, but its their preference.

A friend of mine holds a private pilot's license, has been flying for decades, but he flies only during clear days. He doesn't need more training, the airplane has instruments, but thats his preference at this point in his life.

Why are these personal choices patently wrong? Is it because when a gun is designed to be carried with one in the chamber, thats the only way it can 'properly' be carried? Why does it have to be your way or the highway?

What time is tea?
Iced or hot? I find noon a good time for iced, but 3:00 is perfect for hot tea....

I think everyone carrying should understand the pros and cons, of each gun/carry method, but there is no absolutes IMO.

Take people carrying a .380. In some cases they take the position that they can pocket carry a .380 in places where they wouldn't carry even a small 9mm, like a Kahr. Is that "wrong." I don't think so. While .380 may be sub par for a self defense round, it is still better than having no protection at all.

Personally, I don't like absolutes, in regard to C1/C3 or many other topics.

As I've pointed out, if you opt to tuck an IWB or use a smart carry, you will probably be slower to present than if you were OWB with a jacket.

Anyway, at the risk of having another overly verbose post, the meandering point I was trying to make is that not only should each person carry in a way they are comfortable, when it is all said and done, like the way carrying a .380 is better than not carrying at all, if you need to defend yourself, carrying C3 is better than not carrying at all.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:39   #598
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You have just taken a gentlemanly discussion of issues to being personal. Effectively, you've displayed your true self.
I have no clue why anyone still listens/responds to that disrespectful clown.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:45   #599
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
I don't understand your point of view, but a lot of others agree with it. What I'm still trying to sort out is why there is such rigidity in your position.

I've been handling guns of all kinds for 60 years, gun safety is my first objective and I prefer C3. What's wrong with that?

Some people are new to concealed carry and would prefer C3 while they're on the learning curve. Is that wrong?

Ultra-conservative revolver owners carry with an empty chamber. This isn't necessary, but its their preference.

A friend of mine holds a private pilot's license, has been flying for decades, but he flies only during clear days. He doesn't need more training, the airplane has instruments, but thats his preference at this point in his life.

Why are these personal choices patently wrong? Is it because when a gun is designed to be carried with one in the chamber, thats the only way it can 'properly' be carried? Why does it have to be your way or the highway?

What time is tea?
Because you carry a gun for self defense. It can get you killed if you need it fast for its intended purpose. If you are not carrying a handgun for its intended purpose then it is no big deal. I have no idea why you would bother carrying a handgun for anything else except for hunting and even then it is stupid to carry on an empty chamber. Again get some quality training.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:06   #600
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I have no clue why anyone still listens/responds to that disrespectful clown.
Right. You have no clue.....
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