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Old 03-10-2013, 17:18   #726
Tazz10m
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Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
Let's try to keep this valuable thread on an even keel.

Here's a good article laying the groundwork for C3 as a carry method, and here's another that visually makes the case.

Let me stipulate a few things I have previously as well as mention a couple I've not.

1. I concede that carrying C1 allows greater leeway in time as well as removing a step in presentation.
2. I currently normally carry C3 because of my personal circumstances, not because I'm an advocate for any particular method.
3. ND/AD incidents can and do happen to seasoned experts as well as complete novices.

Add to this these two condiderations:

1. Racking a slide is a gross motor function, much easier to perform (I've read) under extreme duress compared to a relatively fine motor skill such as remembering to click the manual safety to the "off" position when drawing a weapon. Can carrying C3 result in getting the defender killed? Sure, so can fumbling with a manual safety.

2. My one real concern with the Israeli Method is in presentation of the weapon. That is, since the weak hand is racking the slide and not coming up naturally to support the two-handed grip there's a break in the smooth presentation. That's another concession I will cede to those who favor C1. Nevertheless, again given my circumstances it doesn't sway me yet from C3.

PS: If the first link doesn't work click on this site: http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.c...ry-or-why.html
Sorry, but the method shown in this video is lame. Like i said if that dog attacked; this method would get you ate.
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Old 03-10-2013, 17:22   #727
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Originally Posted by RJ's Guns View Post
Well stated, but considering who you were responding to and the others like him, it was a complete waste of your time. It is about as productive as talking to a rock.

I am reminded of the old adage; "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

I will not waste my time trying to convince the proverbial "rock" of the error of its ways, some people only learn "the hard way."

RJ

Yeah, but i know others will get it and appreciate it. Vandros will hear it from other people as well... and eventually he may get it. The more he hears it from the better. That's just the way learning is.
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Old 03-10-2013, 17:30   #728
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Originally Posted by ModGlock17 View Post
That's the part I don't get. People would go thru all this argument for their position, only to spew 9mm which can get a lot of big guys simply mad. If you want to get the job done, then CCW something that can get it done quickly.

Tazz, you seem to live in a world where even an ND can be so sanitizing. I'd C1 in that world, too.
As i said before; We all live in the same world.

An attack can come anytime, anywhere, and they typically happen when a person least expects it. Those that spout this and that and find themselves wrong typically can't come back and tell everyone how wrong they were... because... they are dead.

Moral of the story; If you are going to carry; learn to do it in C1... if you want to win.
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Old 03-10-2013, 17:56   #729
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Originally Posted by vandros View Post
I think you are sincere in your desire to save my life and other forum members' lives. I really appreciate that! BTW, that's one reason I've been engaged in this discussion so intensively - I'm also trying to help prevent people from badly hurting themselves or others (and from giving gun-community bad name) thru unintentional discharges.

On the issue of what reality is - we'll never agree. That issue has been addressed in this thread over and over, so I don't want to keep debating this. You think you are right, and I'm wrong on this. I think we are both right given the different environments and experiences we've had.

Regarding insults, saying one deserves Darwin award is the same as calling somebody dumb. You know it, I know it. Here's a test for online forum discussions I go by: If you think it's disrespectful to say something to a person face-to-face, don't say it online. Unless, of course your only goal is to make yourself feel good at the expense of others and you do not care about the online community where you make these remarks (I don't think either of these apply to you). We all can be sarcastic and insulting and immature and impulsive. Too much of online discussion is replete with this crap. Does it do anybody any good, other than allowing poster let off steam and feel good about himself? No.

Many of the issues you raise in your latest reply have already been addressed in this thread at length. I don't want to fill this thread with redundant info. So, no disrespect, but I don't want to rehash old arguments.

I thought by declaring my love for 10mm I'm automatically a member of the "ring"
Good attitude.

But, the best way to "...help prevent people from badly hurting themselves or others (and from giving gun-community bad name) thru unintentional discharges." is to establish and teach "firearms competency". The only way to do this is with study and practice... and experience.

Realty? Have fun with that one; Learn and live.

Darwin awards? Being dumb is not required at all. All you have to do is bob when you should have weaved... i almost died once because my wetsuit hood was too tight. Couldn't feel it... never taught it... didn't know...

oooops...

...good thing i figured it out and fought HARD to live... now i know. Now i need to write an article about it so others can look out for the problem. Probably there's never been anyone teaching about the problem because everyone that's found it has died... except me.

Often people think issues have been addressed... and they keep thinking that way... but they've inadvertently surrounded themselves with only what they really want to believe as they search to confirm they are correct in their beliefs.

You know how to tell who your friends are? They're the ones that tell you when your zipper is down.

Hey, your zipper is down.

Btw, you would be AMAZED at some of the things i'll tell a person to their face. Even famous people.

As for that 10 Ring Membership; you get to be a member if you 1; Have a 10mm, and 2; Sign up and put your name on the members list.

Hey, it's the worlds most exclusive club. We have to have SOME standards!
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Old 03-10-2013, 18:02   #730
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Originally Posted by 1911pro View Post
The whole problem is you can click a safety off with the same hand holding the pistol. You have to bring the other hand over to rack the slide. If your hand is slippery with sweet,blood or dirt you may not rack the slide all the way back or slow its force under stress causing a failure to feed. What is your supporting hand is grabbed by someone? What then? Are you going to rack your slide off of your belt under stress when a bad guy has hold of you? It is real nice how they square the guy up both legs even so that he can make a larger target for the bullets and have trouble moving. You should have a fighting stance feet shoulder width apart, knees bent ,same leg forward as your pistol hand. Move on the balls of your feet. His stance makes no sense at all other than being solid. I would like to see it run against a timer. 1911 safety against racking the slide with your average shooter. Bet the safety wins.

This is a good take on the second article.
http://pistol-training.com/archives/183
This stance comes from the stance a person is most likely to take in sudden fear.
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Old 03-10-2013, 19:13   #731
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Tazz...Interesting post about the close call with the dog. Patrolling your estate on a dark, moonless night with an unchambered .22 rifle (the 10-22 does have a safety) might not have been so smart. I would have thought your immediate reaction to spotting the dog would have been to reach for your 10mm. It seems like you had plenty of time. I'm just thinking this story is incomplete. I understand your key message that attack can happen anytime.

You speak as if you have great experience in urban combat, so why would you offer a dog confrontation to illustrate how unexpected, dangerous attack can happen?

You reject the notion that training and experience are important to safe gun handling, and suggest everyone should just take your word for how to do it. You hook up with RJ to say 'they'll get it if we just keep telling them what they need to know'. i guess we're still waiting for a compelling explanation of why your knowledge is superior to ours and why your opinion should be accepted without question.

Your claims of combat are extraordinary, to say the least, and might be relevant to residents of the toughest neighborhoods of Detroit or New Orleans. However, your warnings (attacks are likely to happen anytime and anywhere) are thin on explaining why inner city crime activity should drive behavior in much safer environments. We acknowledge that deadly attack isn't absolutely avoidable, but the risks are much different in one place compared to another. Economic conditions, education level, racial density, lifestyle, gang activity, drug trafficing and other social/economic factors greatly influence the incidence of murder from one place to another.

How is your experience relevant to our circumstances?

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 03-21-2013 at 14:14..
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Old 03-10-2013, 20:27   #732
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This stance comes from the stance a person is most likely to take in sudden fear.
They have got to be joking.
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Old 03-10-2013, 20:37   #733
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
Thanks, Doc. I just got my CC license Friday and I bought my first gun, a Glock 19, Saturday. I want to carry like the guys at GT recommend, and one on the chamber seems most popular. Many say its the only way to carry a Glock. I'm just glad to know carry mode isn't a big deal. See ya later, I'm headed to the mall for my first CC outing.

I know perfectly well what you mean, Doc. Others may not.

Actually, I appreciate your post. The message is spot on for folks who have some experience.
Don't blow tradition. You are supposed to get nachos on your first outing with your CHL. That's one thing that doesn't have to make sense.

Just get our there, and realize just how little your fellow human is not paying attention. Still, try hard to conceal your weapon.

Be safe. Be good. Be Careful.
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:44   #734
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They have got to be joking.
Probably no more so that assuming you'd be able to fend off an attacker with your off hand while you fumble for your concealed firearm with your strong hand. Those who speculate such a perfect scenario have never been attacked.
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:10   #735
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Probably no more so that assuming you'd be able to fend off an attacker with your off hand while you fumble for your concealed firearm with your strong hand. Those who speculate such a perfect scenario have never been attacked.
Mad because I called you out on your other posts that you would not reply back to? I quoted it like you asked. You obviously have no training from the posts that you have made. I have trained in martial arts for many years. If you cannot even see the benifit of having your off hand free then you have no clue about self defense in general. It is all about your skill set and yes there are many variables. I made no comments about it being a perfect senerio as there is no such thing. Each person and situation is different. Do everything possible to stack the odds in your favor. Carrying a gun with an empty chamber is not helping to do this.

Last edited by 1911pro; 03-11-2013 at 06:28..
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Old 03-11-2013, 07:47   #736
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Originally Posted by Tazz10m View Post
So i go out and patrol my property in the moonless darkness with my trusty tac light mounted 10/22. As i'm clearing each area i notice what looks like movement in the corner of my eye. Sure enough, here comes that dog... ten feet away and closing... a huge male Great Dane mixed with ??? hound... trying to sneak up behind me...

Leading with the barrel of the gun and flashlight, i step back with my right foot, pivoting on my left, and meet the dogs challenge with a "Hello there... time for you to go home."

This dog is a monster... almost as big as Godzilla... 10 feet away... challenging my authority... and all i had in my hands was this, now silly, little 10/22... WHICH btw, i had NOT yet racked chambered a round as i keep my long gun chambers empty until "needed".

Why didn't i think of racking one in at that moment? Because i wasn't thinking about it... i was facing the monster... realizing that that, large as it was, that dog was too jumpy and moving way too quick to hit with that .22.

But, at that moment, because of the time factors involved, all i could think of was holding my ground, keeping that gun with flashlight pointed in the dogs face, and meeting his mouth with the barrel of that gun and pulling the trigger if it attacked. Come to think of it a bayonet would have come in handy at that moment.

Lucky for me standing my ground worked and the dog thought best to move away toward its home... prompting me to say; 'Good dog... keep going... go home...' but the dog kept stopping and turning back toward me... prompting me to say; 'Go home or you are going to die... GO HOME...' as i kicked up the brightness on the tac light and hit "strobe"... the strobe immediately got the dog moving away again... good.

But, boy did i feel stupid... standing there after all that and i still didn't have a round racked into the chamber... although i did have a Glock 29 on my hip with a round up the pipe and 19 more behind it... i still didn't have one ready to go in the gun i had in my hands that i was actually using at the moment i needed it to be there... and i was HOLDING THE WRONG GUN... EMPTY... except for the mag.

Next time i'm bringing the shotgun and the first thing i'm doing is pumping in a 00 buck.

Moral of the story; If you wait til the moment of an attack to charge your gun it's more than likely too late.

If that dog would have charged, the thing i would have most likely done is shoved the barrel in the face/mouth of the dog and got a *click*. Then, right or wrong, i would have tried to hold the dog back with the 10/22 like a stick and because it had the light on it and i would have gone for the G29.

More than likely i would have gotten chewed a few times before i got the G29 effective and stopped the dog. Maybe i would have slipped in the dark and, overwhelmed, the dog the best of me... and earned a Darwin Award in the process.

Next time i'm bringing the shotgun for the lead, and i think i might just get and attach a bayonet to the end of it... i'm really starting to like that idea... yeah... a bayonet.... that's the ticket!
I'd have made friends, scratched him behind the ears for 30 seconds and let him join the patrol. He can sneak a little better than you evidently (most dogs can do better than most humans). If he had wanted you, he'd have had you. More likely he wanted to join the fun and play too. They don't call them "man's best friend" for nothing. Good decision on changing out the .22 LR with a real gun. Down here we have 400+ pound hogs, mountain lions, coyotes, rattlesnakes, bobcats etc. It's best not to walk around at night alone.
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:09   #737
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This dog is a monster... almost as big as Godzilla... 10 feet away... challenging my authority...
Meh, the statistics show that kind of dog is rare on Ohio.


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Old 03-11-2013, 09:35   #738
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Thanks for the quick replies guys. Im confident enough with myself handling and holstering the weapon to not be concerned with an accidental discharge. My CHL instructor mentioned the safety issue thing and said "I'd be scared to carry that thing chambered" so I thought it was a big deal with Glocks. Guess not. Glad to hear it's not and I'll carry it ready to go.

Welcome to Glock Talk.
If you are comfortable yourself carrying a gun ready to go, if I were you, I wouldn't worry about what someone else felt. If the other person isn't comfortable & you are go ahead. He isn't the one carrying the gun, you are.
When our dept. transitioned to the Glock, I think it took all of us a while to get comfortable with it. Now it's my go to CCW gun weather permitting. By weather I mean I'm retired & CC most of the time.
Good shooting & remember, no gun is safer than the person handling it.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:39   #739
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Originally Posted by Tazz10m View Post
As i said before; We all live in the same world.

An attack can come anytime, anywhere, and they typically happen when a person least expects it. Those that spout this and that and find themselves wrong typically can't come back and tell everyone how wrong they were... because... they are dead.

Moral of the story; If you are going to carry; learn to do it in C1... if you want to win.
But then in their final moments, at least they learned whether or not they took the right decision.


I have stated numerous times on this and other sites where this question has popped up, as it generally does from time to time, that how someone chooses to carry is their own decision to take. We have heard people equate the carrying of an arm to the wearing of a safety belt and there is one part of that analogy that fits pretty well. You never know when and where you will be involved in an accident so that is the reason you wear your belt.

Same can be said about the carrying of a defensive arm. Add to the carrying of that arm its condition of readiness. The human race is not in danger of going extinct so we needn't worry much about the loss of a few lives who decided not to carry in full battery. That is a cold and hard comment. But the truth of the matter is that each good and decent person's life has value, not only to them but to others as well.

There are some mistakes from which we cannot hit the reset button, learn from them, and continue with our lives. Loosing one's life because their firearm was less than fully ready is one of them. Still it IS a personal choice and in the end, I suppose that is how it should be.
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Old 03-11-2013, 12:52   #740
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Moral of the story; Train how you carry, carry how you train, and remember...CONSISTANCY, CONSISTANCY, CONSISTANCY.
...fixed it for you.
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Old 03-11-2013, 13:32   #741
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Tazz...Interesting post about the close call with the dog. Patrolling your estate on a dark, moonless night with an unchambered .22 rifle (the 10-22 does have a safety) might not have been so smart. I would have thought your immediate reaction to spotting the dog would have been to reach for your 10mm. It seems like you had plenty of time. I'm just thinking this story is incomplete. I understand your key message that attack can happen anytime.

You speak as if you have great experience in urban combat, so why would you offer a dog confrontation to illustrate how unexpected, dangerous attack can happen?

You reject the notion that training and experience are important to safe gun handling, and suggest everyone should just take your word for how to do it. You hook up with RJ to say 'they'll get it if we just keep telling them what they need to know'.

You're combat claims might be relevant to residents of the toughest neighborhoods of LA or DC, but your warnings (attacks can happen anytime and anywhere) are thin on substance.

Give us something tangible to work with, dude. And turn the volume down, please.

"...reach for the 10mm..."; I had my 10mm... easily accessible except for being under cover, (another mistake, i should have already had my clothes clear of it). My decision not to go for the G29 was that if i did i would have then had both hands filled and if the dog attacked i would have had to drop one of the guns and the 10/22 was the one with the flashlight mounted. My shotgun would have been a much better choice to take as if the dog attacked and grabbed the end of the shotgun he would have got a mouth full of broken teeth... right before his head went "poof".

As for grabbing the G29 first in the first place; your pistol is what you use to fight your way to your long gun. I figured that with this dog a light, easy handling, easy to hit with gun that i've already dropped a gazillion critters with would work just fine. Wrong.

As for time; that dog could have easily been "teeth close" in a quarter second or less. We are talking "instantly".

"Why would you offer a dog confrontation to illustrate how unexpected, dangerous attack can happen?" Because it shows the dynamics of how even someone who is well trained and experienced can still make stupid mistakes even with a potentially EXPECTED attack. So, it illustrates how much more important it is to be ready for an unexpected attack... especially when it could be a human with a gun or knife.

"You're combat claims might be relevant to residents of the toughest neighborhoods of LA or DC, but your warnings (attacks can happen anytime and anywhere) are thin on substance." Hahaha... get out there with that dog and then say that! I am out in the middle of the woods on an island in the middle of Puget Sound. This island doesn't even have a town, much less a city. It doesn't matter if you are in the middle of "the hood" or out in the middle of "the boonies", the dynamics of an attack that you should learn to be ready for are essentially the same.

"You reject the notion that training and experience are important to safe gun handling..." Ok, that's ridiculous. I never said or implied any of that. Back to; "reading comprehension".

"Give us something tangible to work with, dude..." Dude, if that dog story isn't tangible, i don't know what is. I could give you an example of an actual gun fight i was in, and it would be no more tangible. Tangible is something real you can hold in your hand. Well, print this story out on paper and hold it in your hand... or, come here and i'll set you up with that dog. Btw, we also have black bear, cougar, and coyotes here, 150 lb wolves and pigs eventually to come... not to mention the occasional violent criminal, but it sure beats the hell out of living in the city.
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Old 03-11-2013, 13:44   #742
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Originally Posted by 1911pro View Post
They have got to be joking.
Nope, no joke... actually solid reality.

Check out Col. Rex Applegate's work on the subject. He called it a "combat crouch". It's the position the body naturally takes. The Israeli's are trying to work out from there... they are just doing it in a lame sort of way. Sure it will work fine in many situations... but the problem is the situations it won't work in... you will need a better technique or you'll likely not survive... especially a close quarters attack where you have to keep an attacker back while you pull your gun/knife/? and put it to effect.
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Old 03-11-2013, 14:04   #743
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I'd have made friends, scratched him behind the ears for 30 seconds and let him join the patrol. He can sneak a little better than you evidently (most dogs can do better than most humans). If he had wanted you, he'd have had you. More likely he wanted to join the fun and play too. They don't call them "man's best friend" for nothing. Good decision on changing out the .22 LR with a real gun. Down here we have 400+ pound hogs, mountain lions, coyotes, rattlesnakes, bobcats etc. It's best not to walk around at night alone.
"I'd have made friends, scratched him behind the ears for 30 seconds and let him join the patrol."

Not this dog, you wouldn't. This dog was/is totally untrained and almost wild. It's a breeder dog for breading security dogs. At one point a day earlier i did "make friends" with this dog and got him to lick me and let me pet him on the head.... when he thought i was going to let him out of his pen... then the moment he thought i was not going to let him out he immediately turned angry again.

I have lots of experience with dogs... used to breed them and train them. I used to have a brindle pitbull/dobie named "Chopper" that would have eaten this monster dog like a deluxe cheeseburger with bacon... and Chopper was MUCH smaller. The difference is that Chopper was trained.

Again, the point of all this is to illustrate the need to learn to handle attacks of an instant form, and that in such attacks there just isn't time to chamber a round... and that the sudden move to chamber a round might just cause a warning to you to become an attack on you.
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Old 03-11-2013, 14:17   #744
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Originally Posted by Tazz10m View Post

Again, the point of all this is to illustrate the need to learn to handle attacks of an instant form, and that in such attacks there just isn't time to chamber a round... and that the sudden move to chamber a round might just cause a warning to you to become an attack on you.
And not to get complacent with your surroundings, or perceived safety of familiar environments.
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Old 03-11-2013, 14:28   #745
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Nope, no joke... actually solid reality.

Check out Col. Rex Applegate's work on the subject. He called it a "combat crouch". It's the position the body naturally takes. The Israeli's are trying to work out from there... they are just doing it in a lame sort of way. Sure it will work fine in many situations... but the problem is the situations it won't work in... you will need a better technique or you'll likely not survive... especially a close quarters attack where you have to keep an attacker back while you pull your gun/knife/? and put it to effect.
Thanks for the info. I will read up on it.
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Old 03-11-2013, 14:28   #746
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I carry with the chamber loaded. I shall never have an AD or ND because I keep my finger away from my G17 trigger. It is a red-hot trigger - one that needs to be avoided and touched only very briefly when needed to fire the gun. Red Hot trigger.
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Old 03-11-2013, 14:44   #747
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Sorry, but the method shown in this video is lame. Like i said if that dog attacked; this method would get you ate.
But unlike you, if I lived on an isolated island in Puget Sound conscious of a large angry canine in the vicinity and chose to patrol my property, it's an instance I'd be carrying C1 and my 12 gauge.

Photo's question:
Quote:
"Why would you offer a dog confrontation to illustrate how unexpected, dangerous attack can happen?"
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Originally Posted by Tazz10m View Post
Because it shows the dynamics of how even someone who is well trained and experienced can still make stupid mistakes even with a potentially EXPECTED attack. So, it illustrates how much more important it is to be ready for an unexpected attack... especially when it could be a human with a gun or knife.
But we're to assume you're less likely to make a similar mistake that leads to a potentially disastrous ND/AD when you're not expecting an attack?
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Old 03-11-2013, 14:47   #748
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And not to get complacent with your surroundings, or perceived safety of familiar environments.
Yeah, exactly.
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Old 03-11-2013, 14:51   #749
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But then in their final moments, at least they learned whether or not they took the right decision.


I have stated numerous times on this and other sites where this question has popped up, as it generally does from time to time, that how someone chooses to carry is their own decision to take. We have heard people equate the carrying of an arm to the wearing of a safety belt and there is one part of that analogy that fits pretty well. You never know when and where you will be involved in an accident so that is the reason you wear your belt.

Same can be said about the carrying of a defensive arm. Add to the carrying of that arm its condition of readiness. The human race is not in danger of going extinct so we needn't worry much about the loss of a few lives who decided not to carry in full battery. That is a cold and hard comment. But the truth of the matter is that each good and decent person's life has value, not only to them but to others as well.

There are some mistakes from which we cannot hit the reset button, learn from them, and continue with our lives. Loosing one's life because their firearm was less than fully ready is one of them. Still it IS a personal choice and in the end, I suppose that is how it should be.
You, and many others advocating c1 so passionately ignore one fact: There are lots of people in our society carrying in c1 who should NOT be carrying in c1 (either due to lack of training, due to lack of self awareness that one is not very careful by nature, and due to other factors). Proof? Read all all the posts/threads on the unintentional discharges (the number of which is likely under-reported because most people who have had an ND/AD don't want to publicly admit it) posted by people carrying in c1. Also, there are many anecdotal observations of idiotic (or perhaps just brain-fart-related) behaviors on shooting ranges. These folks (i.e., carrying in c1 and who shouldn't be) endanger themselves, their families, and endanger me and my loved ones every single day. Why don't they switch to c3, you ask? No idea. Perhaps some of them live in bad neighborhoods, or somebody is directly threatening their lives. But perhaps for some of them some "expert" telling them that "real men" or "real pistoleros" carry in c1 has something to do with it...

How is this for some "cold and hard" truth? Think about it.

My advocacy for c3 is not about me trying to toot my horn and to say how I'm right and everyone else is wrong. I don't care about winning arguments at this stage in my life. I care about (1) gun-owning community, (2) our larger society, and (3) our 2nd amendment right. Many people carrying in c1 and who shouldn't be endanger all three. That, along with many, many other factors in favor of C3 discussed in this thread at least merit a careful consideration of C3 as a legitimate option for vast number (if not the majority) of gun owners.

Now, how do we go about determining who is carrying in c1 who shouldn't be? That's a hard question. Everyone confronting it will probably initially say: "Well, it's definitely not me. I'm definitely not someone who is carrying in c1 and who shouldn't be". It is VERY hard to admit to oneself that one probably shouldn't carry glocks in c1. But, this must be a something all of us should carefully consider, no matter how much it hurts our macho manly ego.



As a side note: I'm very skeptical about anyone saying: "I will NEVER have an unintentional discharge because I'm well trained, I never have brain freezes, I'm competent, I'm young and strong (or experienced and wise), I understand my weapon". HOW DO YOU KNOW? I mean how can you guarantee that there will never by any unintentional discharges with your c1-glocks every second of every day?! Have you ever looked at your watch and then couldn't tell what time it was? Have you ever had a "close call" while driving? I think many folks who had an unintentional discharge were pretty normal people: they weren't retards, they were probably also pretty well trained (e.g., current or ex police or military), and they also knew their weapon pretty well. In this situation, I think, erring on the side of safety is a prudent option. Given this ambiguity on who should and shouldn't carry in c1 and inability to guarantee no unintentional discharge from the objectively more dangerous c1-glock translates into carrying in c3, unless you absolutely must carry in c1.
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Old 03-11-2013, 14:56   #750
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But unlike you, if I lived on an isolated island in Puget Sound conscious of a large angry canine in the vicinity and chose to patrol my property, it's an instance I'd be carrying C1 and my 12 gauge.

Photo's question:

But we're to assume you're less likely to make a similar mistake that leads to a potentially disastrous ND/AD when you're not expecting an attack?
Never assume anything. It just makes an ass out of u and me.

I've had 54 years to learn and practice "checks and balances". I can't speak for anyone else here.
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Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

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AGripô Installation Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlnDjdfWkLY


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