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Old 03-07-2013, 17:48   #651
JohnnyE
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
You're absolutely right, it ain't rocket science. Somehow, however, it just seems the decision to carry a weapon chambered, without a safety, should be based on more than "it is faster and more reliable".

Incidentally, I've skated through 72 years in the real world without being attacked, being threatened or knowing anyone personally who was assaulted with a weapon. Based on my life experience, I'd have a hard time explaining why its necessary or appropriate to carry a Glock chambered for self defense. Maybe your experience has been different than mine.

Anyway, I sincerely hope your life over many years to come is as safe as mine has been. Make your SD decisions according to your judgement and your conscience, and pray you never have to pull the trigger. Good luck.
Long ago I learned to ignore personal experience when trying to judge the likelyhood of 1 in a million events, or to what extent to prepare for them. Especially if that one in a million event is a catastrophic result. For example, neither me, nor anyone I know, has had their airbag deploy, but that doesn't make me feel they're useless.

So it is with carrying condition one. Carrying with an empty pipe is like driving without wearing your seatbelt. If I see a crash coming, I'll put it on. Right. You can be up to your ***** in stuff so fast the chance of you taking your next breath is in doubt.

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Old 03-07-2013, 19:40   #652
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one in the chamber? always! remember it is the unloaded gun that kills....most articles on accidental shootings...the shooter remarks, I thought it was unloaded.
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Old 03-07-2013, 19:47   #653
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Originally Posted by JohnnyE View Post
Long ago I learned to ignore personal experience when trying to judge the likelyhood of 1 in a million events, or to what extent to prepare for them. Especially if that one in a million event is a catastrophic result. For example, neither me, nor anyone I know, has had their airbag deploy, but that doesn't make me feel they're useless.

So it is with carrying condition one. Carrying with an empty pipe is like driving without wearing your seatbelt. If I see a crash coming, I'll put it on. Right. You can be up to your ***** in stuff so fast the chance of you taking your next breath is in doubt.
I wonder how many accidents resulting in airbag deployment happen in a year on US streets and highways versus the number of attacks by strangers with murder as the motive. Hmmmm. I'll bet there are a lot more auto accidents where airbags save lives than there are deadly surprise attacks where deploying handguns prevent murder. A WHOLE LOT MORE!!

Driving with or without one's seatbelt doesn't affect the safety of other drivers or padestrians in the area. A handgun ND can result in catastrophic consequences for anyone nearby.

In 2011, NYPD officers incurred a total of 3 gunshot wounds on duty from suspects. In the same year, NYC officers had 6 self inflicted gunshot wounds from ND. This is but one example of the reality of NDs.

There must be a better, more sophisticated justification for universal C1 than the tired old analogies about seat belts, insurance and fire alarms, or saying that its just common sense. I really would love for someone to produce a meaningful, supportable presentation to demonstrate why the benefits of C1 with Glock pistols are materially better than the risk of NDs attributable to C1. I think such a presentation should be a slam dunk if C1 is so superior.

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Old 03-07-2013, 20:33   #654
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You and I know these incidents can and do happen. Criminals can strike at church, Starbucks...anywhere at any time. You have been a victim while I have not.

Not all criminals go about their 'business' with the intent to kill. The bank robbery you mention probably wasn't a shootout. The courthouse incident probably didn't result in gunfire. Experiencing a situation in everyday life where I might actually have to kill another person in order to survive seems so unlikely, based on what I know about the world and my lifestyle, that it borders on unimaginable.

Concealed carry IS ONLY about having the means to kill in order to avoid being killed, and arguments in favor of C1 only center on its greater efficiency in the act of killing. Because the probability of being the target of a deadly attack is so low in my case, I carry only when I feel the need, and C3 is 'efficient' enough for me.

We are much more likely to be killed in a car accident than being a murder victim. When I think about all the risks I face each day, being attacked by someone intent on killing me is near the bottom of the list; in fact, the threat of being murdered hardly makes the list at all.

You live by your experiences and judgement, and I live by mine. I think you could say we are both right.
Having read all of your posts throughout this thread, it seems to me that if anyone would be careful enough to carry C1 it would be you. I cannot imagine you handling a firearm carelessly.

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Old 03-07-2013, 21:09   #655
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Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
Having read all of your posts throughout this thread, it seems to me that if anyone would be careful enough to carry C1 it would be you. I cannot imagine you handling a firearm carelessly.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
Thanks, Happy.

I am safe to a fault, but I had an ND anyway. One. In my home. My wife and son were in the house, but nobody was hurt. I know it can happen.
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Old 03-07-2013, 21:33   #656
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Thanks, Happy.

I am safe to a fault, but I had an ND anyway. One. In my home. My wife and son were in the house, but nobody was hurt. I know it can happen.
Wow. This explains a lot about your position. I was taught at a very young age that all firearms are always considered loaded until I prove at that moment that it is not. Hunting almost all my life helped to reinforce this. I am now in my early 40s and thank my father for instilling at a young age proper firearms safety. I am not beating on you for what happened. Just wondering if you would explain how it happened?
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Old 03-08-2013, 01:00   #657
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Wow. This explains a lot about your position. I was taught at a very young age that all firearms are always considered loaded until I prove at that moment that it is not. Hunting almost all my life helped to reinforce this. I am now in my early 40s and thank my father for instilling at a young age proper firearms safety. I am not beating on you for what happened. Just wondering if you would explain how it happened?

After a session of dry firing my G22, I racked the slide and pulled the trigger for one last dry fire before putting the Glock away. But, I had replaced the empty mag with a loaded one; somehow, FOR THAT BRIEF MOMENT OF EMPTY HEADEDNESS, I forgot about the mag change. Something caused me to have a lapse in concentration that I still can't explain. It could have been catastrophic.

I can't explain what I did. It was a serious case of negligence, gross stupidity, whatever you want to call it. I knew better. I seriously considered giving up handguns completely. Instead, I decided to stick around and contribute somehow to discussions about gun safety.

Because they don't have a manual safety, I always carried Glocks C3. I thought I was as safe as any gun owner could be.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 03-08-2013 at 12:55..
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Old 03-08-2013, 06:09   #658
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I know I'll probably catch a ration of crap from a few who have posted on this thread about what I am going to say here, but please gentlemen, before busting my chops, think about this.

It is possible to be too careful, too cautious... to the point of making a mistake or skipping a step or getting off track when handling a firearm. I have seem people do this over the years, usually they are new comers to this arena, and they trip up. I have yet to see one have a ND, but that has been maybe the luck of the draw?? A man who worked down the hall from me on a different project at my last job "accidentally" shot himself to death in June 2010. From what I was told, he was cleaning his 1911 and it discharged. I don't know the details nor do I know what was going on in his life.... only knew a few things I had heard. But from what he had led me to believe when I knew him, he was an experienced gun owner and I think, former military.

I have a system I use when handling any firearm and I do my best to stick to it. It has worked flawlessly for many years and God willing, will continue to do so. Glocks and Glock-like designs have their quirks and therefore should be handled accordingly. But frankly, I handle all of my handguns in the same manner. That way I don't have to worry or think about, "Ok, this is a 1911 so I need to do this and this is an M&P so I need to do that". That sort of thing to me is an accident waiting to happen. Those guns which are loaded in my home or on my person, reside in a holster which protects their triggers and offers retention. If they are out of their holsters, there is a reason and they are not left by themselves.

Just a thought. Don't want the flames for this post so please keep those to yourself.
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Old 03-08-2013, 07:06   #659
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After a session of dry firing my G22, I racked the slide and pulled the trigger for one last dry fire before putting the Glock away. But, I had replaced the empty mag with a loaded one; somehow, FOR THAT BRIEF MOMENT OF EMPTY HEADEDNESS, I forgot about the mag change. Something caused me to have a lapse in concentration that I still can't explain. It could have been catastrophic.

I can't explain what I did. It was a serious case of negligence, gross stupidity, whatever you want to call it. I knew better. I seriously considered giving up handguns completely. Instead, I decided to stick around and talk about negligent discharges.

Because they don't have a manual safety, I always carried Glocks C3. I thought I was as safe as any gun owner could be.
Glad no one was hurt. So because you failed at being a safe gun owner you believe that carrying with a round in the chamber is unsafe for all who carry firearms. You have been asking all here to make an arguement for the benifits of carrying with a round in the chamber to out weigh your belief that it is dangerous because of an nd that you caused. Just because you failed does not mean that the rest of us who are responsible gun owners who practice proper gun safety should have to justify our needs or prove our abilities to you. Your time could be better spent, but I am sure at your age no one is going to change your mind. Thanks for being honest about what happened.

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Old 03-08-2013, 07:37   #660
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, but I am sure at your age no one is going to change your mind.
Whoa whoa hold on there Cochise, I resemble that remark.

I am bit older than numbnuts, but hey, lets not get all paint brush with the assumptions.

I gleam new things from folks like yourself and others. and am amazed on how much things change and the different mindsets that lead you into other things. (and that is after years and years of training and learning, about 40 years so far)

Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. Anyone who keeps learning stays young. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young. Henry Ford


Oh yeah, I carry C1, period.

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Old 03-08-2013, 08:05   #661
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Having read all of your posts throughout this thread, it seems to me that if anyone would be careful enough to carry C1 it would be you. I cannot imagine you handling a firearm carelessly.
That's the same thing I thought reading Photo's posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
I am safe to a fault, but I had an ND anyway. One. In my home. My wife and son were in the house, but nobody was hurt. I know it can happen.
Like I mentioned on page 5 when I posted Jan. 29th, the reason I gravitated to C3 in my normal carry routine is that there are too many experienced shooters who have suffered a ND for me to ignore.

Quote:
I have read far more anecdotes by Glock Talk members about their ND/AD experiences than I have about their involvements in actual shootouts so I've decided to err on the side of caution in my normal routine.
Yes, there are too many careless gun owners out there, but so many of the GT members who have shared their experiences strike me as conscientious people, not cowboys. I'm sure I'd react the same way as Photo if I suffered an ND; it would be a traumatic incident.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:07   #662
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Whoa whoa hold on there Cochise, I resemble that remark.

I am bit older than numbnuts, but hey, lets not get all paint brush with the assumptions.

I gleam new things from folks like yourself and others. and am amazed on how much things change and the different mindsets that lead you into other things. (and that is after years and years of training and learning, about 40 years so far)

Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty. Anyone who keeps learning stays young. The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young. Henry Ford


Oh yeah, I carry C1, period.
No offense meant. I have learned a lot from people older than me. The saying" you cannot teach an old dog new tricks" came about for a reason. I wish all people young and older would think like you do.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:08   #663
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Brain farts happen, even to the most clever and experienced people. If you don't have sufficient confidence in your skill to rack a slide at crunch time in a gun with a light trigger then carry one in the pipe; I won't.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:45   #664
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No offense meant. I have learned a lot from people older than me. The saying" you cannot teach an old dog new tricks" came about for a reason. I wish all people young and older would think like you do.
None taken, I was messing with you a bit more than anything else.

There are a lot of us "older dogs" (which I do not consider my self even close to that) that quest for new information every day.

The ones that sit thinking the knowledge they contain is the end all be all, or wait for someone else to jump through fiery rings to justify an argument(lazy elitists) are the ones that fall by the way side because they are left behind or just fall over due to Darwin's divine intervention.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:51   #665
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To add some levity to this "serious" discussion, if you don't want to carry C1 you can carry C3--or use the method this lady did if you can't rack your slide in time...
http://autos.aol.com/article/woman-b...%22article%22}
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Old 03-08-2013, 12:35   #666
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Just because you failed does not mean that the rest of us who are responsible gun owners who practice proper gun safety should have to justify our needs or prove our abilities to you.
Take from my posts what you want, or discard all of it.

I responded to your request to explain my ND knowing you would reply as you have.

All of this talk by me is done with good intentions, one of which is to get folks to stop generalizing that C1 with a Glock is right for everyone; lots of people with little or no experience with guns and/or CC come here for good advice about carrying a Glock. I also think its important for people to decide rationally and thoughtfully why they carry a chambered pistol that doesn't have a safety instead of doing it because its popular on the Internet. Lastly, I hope at least a few people come to realize that as disciplined and well trained as they may be, humans do screw up.

As for you, Mr. 1911pro, I'll put my old mind up against yours any day of the week. I've discovered you actually consider yourself a "pro" with guns, and you may well be. Over the years I've learned that folks who get "too big for their britches" come down the hardest when they do make a mistake. You may not be quite as good as you think.

For all others who have endured my challenges and lectures and stubbornness, I hope I haven't offended you. I also hope at least one person has decided to spend extra time thinking about how vulnerable we are to human error.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 03-08-2013 at 13:16..
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Old 03-08-2013, 13:27   #667
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Take from my posts what you want, or discard all of it.

I responded to your request to explain my ND knowing you would reply as you have.

All of this talk by me is done with good intentions, one of which is to get folks to stop generalizing that C1 with a Glock is right for everyone; lots of people with little or no experience with guns and/or CC come here for good advice about carrying a Glock. I also think its important for people to decide rationally and thoughtfully why they carry a chambered pistol that doesn't have a safety instead of doing it because its popular on the Internet. Lastly, I hope at least a few people come to realize that as disciplined and well trained as they may be, humans do screw up.

As for you, Mr. 1911pro, I'll put my old mind up against yours any day of the week. I've discovered you actually consider yourself a "pro" with guns, and you may well be. Over the years I've learned that folks who get "too big for their britches" come down the hardest when they do make a mistake.

For all others who have endured my challenges and lectures and stubbornness, I hope I haven't offended you. I also hope at least one person has decided to spend extra time thinking about how vulnerable we are to human error.
Ah yes. You know best that all will fail because you could not succeed. You must embark on a quest to inform all of their inevitable demise from carrying with a round in the chamber. Sing it from the roof tops. You are right because you refused to listen and comprehend.
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Old 03-08-2013, 13:38   #668
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As much as it goes against my position, members on this forum should see Mas Ayoob's take on this (reposted from his reply to my question on his forum):

==========
Personally, I could only see myself carrying chamber empty if I was stuck with a pistol that wasn't drop-safe, or had to carry a striker-fired point-and-shoot design without a holster.

I've seen so many cases over the years where there was only time to draw and fire, often with only one hand, that I would feel unnecessarily handicapped without a round in the chamber.

Someone uncomfortable with a Glock having a round chambered might be more confident in a hammer-fired pistol with long double action pull and/or manual safety, or with a double action revolver.

There are lots of factors to consider, and different folks have different comfort levels, which is why that topic always seems to generate long discussions.

Cordially,
Mas
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Old 03-08-2013, 14:11   #669
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Ah yes. You know best that all will fail because you could not succeed. You must embark on a quest to inform all of their inevitable demise from carrying with a round in the chamber. Sing it from the roof tops. You are right because you refused to listen and comprehend.
Believe it or not I listen, read and comprehend pretty well for an old dog. Furthermore, I'm willing to wager that you and almost everyone else who has tuned in to this thread will "succeed" by owning and using firearms for a lifetime without incident.

Maybe I am on a quest to remind people that (1) a Glock in C1 may be bad advice for someone new to handguns and (2) NDs can happen to people who least expect it [because they believe they are doing everything right]. If someone out there listened to and comprehended those simple points, my "quest" has been fulfilled. My failure and my personal disappointment surely has to have some useful purpose.

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Old 03-08-2013, 15:07   #670
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Thanks for asking Mas his opinion, vandros.

Quote:
Personally, I could only see myself carrying chamber empty if I was stuck with a pistol that wasn't drop-safe, or had to carry a striker-fired point-and-shoot design without a holster. I've seen so many cases over the years where there was only time to draw and fire, often with only one hand, that I would feel unnecessarily handicapped without a round in the chamber.
Why wouldn't Mas's personal carry habits differ from mine?
He's got decades of police officer experience, decades of investigating crime scenes/incidents, decades of weapons expertise, decades of martial arts expertise, etc ... and I don't. His LEO and other career pursuits take him into dangerous areas and/or scenes of gruesome crimes, as well as his interactions with countless experienced LEO and other experts like him. I have none of that experience.


Quote:
Someone uncomfortable with a Glock having a round chambered might be more confident in a hammer-fired pistol with long double action pull and/or manual safety, or with a double action revolver.
I am not uncomfortable with my Glock; I'm uncomfortable knowing that there are conscientious, experienced gun owners from many walks of life who for one reason or another have experienced a ND/AD. As mentioned so many times before, my life operating for the most part in secure (so far) environments has caused me to recognize there's nothing special about me that would immunize my having a similar, traumatic experience. And as previously mentioned, I really like my no-safety, striker-fired pistols; but agree with Mas that someone who fears carrying one "hot" due to the lack of a manual safety should consider a handgun with a different system.

Quote:
There are lots of factors to consider, and different folks have different comfort levels, which is why that topic always seems to generate long discussions.
Earlier this week I wrote:

Quote:
Suppose you're a highly-trained self-defense expert with a military background and decades of LEO experience, now conducting firearms and self-defense courses. I'm a civilian taking one of your basic courses and the hypothetical subject of a nighttime home intrusion comes up for discussion.

Do you think your own response to a real home intrusion emergency might differ from the recommendation you give me for dealing with it?
I posted this because I remember the stark contrast between Mas Ayoob's and Gabe Suarez's recommendations about clearing a nighttime home intrusion, from a Glock Talk thread posted originally by another member.

Whereas Suarez details busting through dark doorways commando-style Mas recommended that untrained civilians hunker down in the bedroom with weapon and cellphone and await the police. I'm sure both men are capable of the active, aggressive method for clearing a darkened home but I'm certainly not. I'm also sure one of the burdens of being an expert source is that in a lot of cases people want the experts to make individual choices for the untrained, which is an impossibility.

If we're mature enough to own a firearms, to obtain a CCW license, and have the proper respect for the responsibilities these actions entail then we're mature enough to make the right personal choices for ourselves. Right now --- all things considered --- based upon my personal lifestyle I choose to err on the side of caution. But nothing is cast in stone. Just as I gravitated from C1 to C3 in my normal routine so may I gravitate back to C1 in the future. And threads like this are great sources for hashing these issues out.
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Old 03-08-2013, 15:27   #671
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[QUOTE=PhotoFeller;20069687]

Maybe I am on a quest to remind people that (1) a Glock in C1 may be bad advice for someone new to handguns and (2) NDs can happen to people who least expect it. QUOTE]

The people who do not have NDs are those who "expect" it will happen if they are careless. Therefore they remain vigilant and do everything correctly so that it does not happen. If you are new to firearms seek out some quality training from a well known instructor and join the NRA. Guns are only as safe as the person handling them.

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Old 03-08-2013, 15:38   #672
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Originally Posted by vandros View Post
As much as it goes against my position, members on this forum should see Mas Ayoob's take on this (reposted from his reply to my question on his forum):

==========
Personally, I could only see myself carrying chamber empty if I was stuck with a pistol that wasn't drop-safe, or had to carry a striker-fired point-and-shoot design without a holster.

I've seen so many cases over the years where there was only time to draw and fire, often with only one hand, that I would feel unnecessarily handicapped without a round in the chamber.

Someone uncomfortable with a Glock having a round chambered might be more confident in a hammer-fired pistol with long double action pull and/or manual safety, or with a double action revolver.

There are lots of factors to consider, and different folks have different comfort levels, which is why that topic always seems to generate long discussions.

Cordially,
Mas
==========
Excellent advice from a person who knows what he is talking about. Thanks for posting it. Now if anyone wants to sell me their 9mm Glocks for a good price... Then again I am just a disrespectful clown....

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Old 03-08-2013, 16:03   #673
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A slide is noisy. Pray when you need your gun, someone acting the bad guy does not hear your heart pounding in your chest, not to mention you operating the slide on your gun, under stress. Sometimes things take you by surprise, and sometimes, you may not be the victim, but a bystander. As a bystander, the time it takes to act, without one in the pipe, may spell your certain death. Operate a noisy slide in a crisis? No, not for me.

One in the pipe always. Safe-T-Blok always. Best of both worlds.
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Old 03-08-2013, 16:06   #674
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[quote=1911pro;20069906][QUOTE=PhotoFeller;20069687]

"Maybe I am on a quest to remind people that (1) a Glock in C1 may be bad advice for someone new to handguns and (2) NDs can happen to people who least expect it [because they believe they are doing everything right]." QUOTE]

I added to my above statement from post #669 to clarify its intent. The addition is shown in brackets [ ].

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Old 03-08-2013, 16:32   #675
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Originally Posted by vandros View Post
Under your circumstances, perhaps. Under my circumstances, and circumstances of many folks on this forum, carrying glock in C1 will win you a Darwin Award considering associated risks.

Can we just stop with the insults? Make your argument, back it up with logic/evidence, be respectful. Perhaps add something useful to the discussion? Is it too much to ask? Some of you act like you are going thru puberty.
Considering what risks?

Have you ever even been in a gun fight?
Have you ever had a gun in your face?
Have you ever had a knife pulled on you?
Have you ever fought someone that had pulled that knife?
Have you ever done it "empty handed"?
Have you ever been surrounded by a gang?
Have you ever been in a full on riot?
Have you ever been shot at?
Have you ever had to shoot anyone?
Have you ever even been in a "real" fight?
How long have you been carrying?

Have you even considered how much of your perceived circumstances might be imaginary?

Where have i insulted anyone? I haven't. A Darwin Award is just that... one earns it all by oneself.

I carried a Beretta 21a, then a Glock 20, then a G29, everyday for about 25 years, concealed, without a holster, and without even 1 negligent discharge...

I grew up totally SURROUNDED by gangs and criminals and lived it for well over 25 years. I can answer "yes, more than once" to each one of those first 10 questions.

The last "fight" i was in there were about 30 sharp knives laying around, along with several different guns, both hand and long, and they were ALL loaded, (although the long guns had empty chambers), all EASILY within instant reach. I also had a G29 with 20 rounds on me in my holster, round up the pipe...

The "attacker" threatened my life. He had a loaded handgun and a folding knife on him..... and he was much younger and stronger than me...

Did i go for my gun or another or a knife?

No.

Instead, i grabbed the guy by the throat with my weak hand, picked him up, and threw him to the concrete floor.

What did he do?

He started crying.

Circumstances?

We are all in the same damn circumstances.

The crap almost ALWAYS comes down when you LEAST expect it.

Figure on only having a half second to react.

Act accordingly... your life depends on it... as does your families, because they rely on YOU. If you are wrong, your family will have to fend for itself.

Is this "useful to the discussion" enough for you?

Sorry about my immaturity. I'm 54 going on 16. Some day, maybe, i'll write a book for ya'll... but what for? The "logic and evidence" is all around and easy to find... too easy.
__________________
Celebrating 20 Years of helping good people get AGrip™!

Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier
www.BrooksTactical.com Official AGrip™ Manufacturer Website

AGrip™ Installation Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlnDjdfWkLY


Never let anyone who is clueless about defense tell you what you can and can't do to protect yourself and others.

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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42