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Old 03-03-2013, 16:58   #521
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Honestly if every good person would take it upon themselves to become competent it could be a " shall issue." I am against the government determining my need to protect myself. I am also torn because I do not want to be shot by some CCW guy(or girl) who cannot tell which end the bullets come out. My 'need' came with my birth. Can you really 'live' without CC? You sure would have better odds staying alive with it. To many people want to talk the talk and never learn to walk the walk.
I've been handling firearms for 60 years, so I know which end the bullets come from. I walk the walk for safety every time I pick up a gun.

"Becoming competent" means different things to different folks. My training, meager as it is, and early guidance by hard-nosed mentors, and years of experience with firearms of all types provided a solid foundation for safe handling and fundamental CC skills. I'm mature about my decisions that involve or could affect other people. I understand the law regarding my responsibilities and accountability, and I understand the consequences of using deadly force. I believe maturity, common sense, knowledge of the law and respect for the safety of others are mighty important components of "competency".

What I am not is a trained gunfighter. What I haven't had is fast draw training, learning to shoot with injuries, practice engaging multiple targets, shooting while moving backwards and/or laterally, clearing jams, loading and unloading while blindfolded and all the other tactical stuff the SD trainers teach. Is this the competency you would have me tested for...pistolero skills? What competency standard would you prescribe?

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 03-03-2013 at 17:39..
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Old 03-03-2013, 17:43   #522
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I've been handling firearms for 60 years, so I know which end the bullets come from. I walk the walk for safety every time I pick up a gun.

"Becoming competent" means different things to different folks. My training, meager as it is, and early guidance by hard-nosed mentors, and years of experience with firearms of all types provided a solid foundation for safe handling and fundamental CC skills. I'm mature about my decisions that involve or could affect other people. I understand the law regarding my responsibilities and accountability, and I understand the consequences of using deadly force. I believe maturity, common sense, knowledge of the law and respect for the safety of others are mighty important components of "competency".

What I am not is a trained gunfighter. What I haven't had is fast draw training, learning to shoot with injuries, practice engaging multiple targets, shooting while moving backwards and/or laterally, clearing jams, loading and unloading while blindfolded and all the other tactical stuff the SD trainers teach. Is this the competency you would have me tested for...pistolero skills? What competency standard would you prescribe?

Being competent enough to CCW means you can at least carry with a round in the chamber without shooting yourself and others on accident. It is real simple. You do not have to be a 'gunfighter' as you call it. The real world of defending yourself is drawing from a holster, learning to shoot one handed( strong and weak), shooting while moving in all directions while loading, and clearing malfuctions. This is real stuff that happens in the real world to real people. Not everything is as easy as sitting in front of a computer argueing on a gun forum that all this stuff is just tactical mumbo jumbo for delta team only and I have my special bullet right here in my pocket. Most people will never be willing to step outside their own little comfort zone. If you have such a solid foundation for safe handling and fundamental CC skills you would not choose to carry with an empty chamber.

Last edited by 1911pro; 03-03-2013 at 17:44..
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Old 03-03-2013, 18:39   #523
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Being competent enough to CCW means you can at least carry with a round in the chamber without shooting yourself and others on accident. It is real simple. You do not have to be a 'gunfighter' as you call it. The real world of defending yourself is drawing from a holster, learning to shoot one handed( strong and weak), shooting while moving in all directions while loading, and clearing malfuctions. This is real stuff that happens in the real world to real people. Not everything is as easy as sitting in front of a computer argueing on a gun forum that all this stuff is just tactical mumbo jumbo for delta team only and I have my special bullet right here in my pocket. Most people will never be willing to step outside their own little comfort zone. If you have such a solid foundation for safe handling and fundamental CC skills you would not choose to carry with an empty chamber.
This is exactly the type of comment that turns thoughtful discussions into internet pissing match. Perhaps you are the one who should be spending a bit less time in front of a computer arguing on a gun forum. If you have nothing substantive/thoughtful to add, and you want to just insult people, we couldn't care less about your opinions.

You are wrong in style and substance. Being able to shoot while in a yoga pose or shooting targets a mile away does not mean you are competent to or should carry in C1. You should read prior posts on many good reasons for C3, even for people who are well trained.
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Old 03-03-2013, 18:52   #524
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This is totally bogus. C3 does not equal incompetence. Read the prior discussion for all the valid reasons one would choose C3 even after having moderate- to advanced-level training.
Let me guess you carry with an empty chamber also? What training do you have? I read the prior discussion and for CCW there is no valid reason to carry with an empty chamber other than the numb nuts carrying the pistol. I believe that if you are that unsafe you should leave the gun at home.
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Old 03-03-2013, 19:00   #525
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I don't carry most of the time. When I am armed, it is usually with a Glock or Kahr in C3.
I don't think C3 is the way to go, but others can disagree. However, only carrying some of the time is, in my opinion, foolish. I think it's been said that we don't pick the times and places of our attacks. I'd like to add that we also cannot predict those attacks, and simply carrying when you think you need to and not carrying when you don't requires a level of clairvoyance that is non-human. By doing this, especially if don't carry more often than you carry, you are putting yourself in a position where you are going to need a gun and not have one. I don't care if you live in a gated community and all your neighbors are cops and you are just checking your mailbox. To think you are safe just because you are in your own driveway or because you are just going to a safe part of town is you fooling yourself.

Just goes to show you that number of years shooting/carrying has only a little do with being an experienced shooter. Clearly lots of people who have been shooting/carrying for decades cling to beginner practices that have been proved to be ineffective, dangerous, or counter to common sense.

Carrying C3, I just shrug my shoulders and think, "Oh well, not my choice, but at least they're carrying and protecting themselves". Carrying only some of the time, not even a majority of the time, I just shake my head in disbelief and think "Asking for it."
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Old 03-03-2013, 19:00   #526
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A pistol without a round in the chamber is like a dull knife. Its worthless.

Spend more time with the pistol and get a quality holster. If your still not confident after that, carry something else.
Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is real good advice?





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Old 03-03-2013, 19:05   #527
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This is exactly the type of comment that turns thoughtful discussions into internet pissing match. Perhaps you are the one who should be spending a bit less time in front of a computer arguing on a gun forum. If you have nothing substantive/thoughtful to add, and you want to just insult people, we couldn't care less about your opinions.

You are wrong in style and substance. Being able to shoot while in a yoga pose or shooting targets a mile away does not mean you are competent to or should carry in C1. You should read prior posts on many good reasons for C3, even for people who are well trained.
Sorry I struck a nerve with you. Obviously something that I said hit home. How can someone post page after page of total crap trying to rationalize the fact that they have to carry a firearm with an empty chamber to keep from shooting themselves of others on accident? I did not say 'shooting in a yoga pose or shooting targets a mile away'. You are the one acting the fool. You should be able to shoot on the move and make hits at 25 yards. If all you have even done is shoot just standing or sitting at the square range like most it is no wonder such things seem so foreign. I did the same thing for many,many years. Get some quality training and it will open up a whole new world.

Last edited by 1911pro; 03-03-2013 at 19:20..
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Old 03-03-2013, 19:24   #528
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Coming across as an arrogant windbag isn't going to win you many converts.

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Old 03-03-2013, 19:28   #529
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Being competent enough to CCW means you can at least carry with a round in the chamber without shooting yourself and others on accident. It is real simple. You do not have to be a 'gunfighter' as you call it. The real world of defending yourself is drawing from a holster, learning to shoot one handed( strong and weak), shooting while moving in all directions while loading...
Are you saying CC permits should only be issued to people who can pass an advanced tactical skills test? If I can pass this test in every respect except the part about carrying C1, because C3 is my personal preference, should I earn the permit?

Look at this through my lens on the world. I think I'm mature enough and experienced enough to carry a weapon safely in C3. I'm satisfied with this mode because where I live/play/otherwise expose myself to the world surprise attack is unlikely. If there is an incident of road rage, or people scatter in the shopping center because of an apparent danger, or a shot is heard wherever I happen to be, I can chamber a round and have a chance to defend. If, through carelessness on my part, I am surprised up close up by an assailant, I will make whatever I can from a lousy situation; I accept the consequences as the price of not becoming adept at arms-length combat. C3 is good enough for me. Do you see any logic in this perspective?

Not all of us will become highly skilled. Why should we be denied the opportunity to have some level of protection?

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 03-03-2013 at 19:29..
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Old 03-03-2013, 19:41   #530
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Are you saying CC permits should only be issued to people who can pass an advanced tactical skills test? If I can pass this test in every respect except the part about carrying C1, because C3 is my personal preference, should I earn the permit?

Look at this through my lens on the world. I think I'm mature enough and experienced enough to carry a weapon safely in C3. I'm satisfied with this mode because where I live/play/otherwise expose myself to the world surprise attack is unlikely. If there is an incident of road rage, or people scatter in the shopping center because of an apparent danger, or a shot is heard wherever I happen to be, I can chamber a round and have a chance to defend. If, through carelessness on my part, I am surprised up close up by an assailant, I will make whatever I can from a lousy situation; I accept the consequences as the price of not becoming adept at arms-length combat. C3 is good enough for me. Do you see any logic in this perspective?

Not all of us will become highly skilled. Why should we be denied the opportunity to have some level of protection?
No not a pass or fail, but at least expose them to this type of training and take them out of that comfort zone. Honestly it would make alot of people want to get better training on their own.
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Old 03-03-2013, 19:49   #531
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Coming across as an arrogant windbag isn't going to win you many converts.

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Old 03-03-2013, 19:52   #532
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I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but since I saw Kahr mentioned a few posts back as being a gun carried C3, I felt I needed to address this.

Some, if not all, Kahrs should not be carried C3. The way Kahr tells you to chamber a round is to have the slide locked back, insert a magazine and then press the slide release. The reason for this is that Kahrs are VERY finicky when trying to chamber a round by racking the slide. If you ride the slide even a little bit the Kahr will fail to feed, which is the last thing you want in a self defense situation.

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Old 03-03-2013, 19:58   #533
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I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but since I saw Kahr mentioned a few posts back as being a gun carried C3, I felt I needed to address this.

Some, if not all, Kahrs should not be carried C3. The way Kahr tells you to chamber a round is to have the slide locked back, insert a magazine and then press the slide release. The reason for this is that Kahrs are VERY finicky when trying to chamber a round by racking the slide. If you ride the slide even a little bit the Kahr will fail to feed, which is the last thing you want in a self defense situation.

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Old 03-03-2013, 20:03   #534
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You should be able to shoot on the move and make hits at 25 yards.
Of the total American CCW universe just what percentage of them do you believe are capable of this standard?

What percentage of this universe who are unable to achieve this level of move-and-shoot-accuracy (under unexpected extreme duress) do you think carry C1?
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Old 03-03-2013, 20:12   #535
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Excellent point. A competency test would probably cut me out, but I can live without CC.

If you're in favor of expanding the requirements to qualify for CC, lets also require that any person applying for a permit must clearly demonstrate that carrying a weapon is essential for protecting himself/herself from eminent danger of attack. Many (most?) of us wouldn't pass the 'need' test. Would you?

1911pro suggests there should be a competency test to get a CC license. Is that a good idea?
Apropos your comment "lets also require that any person applying for a permit must clearly demonstrate that carrying a weapon is essential for protecting himself/herself from eminent danger of attack." ... I totally disagree with this. Having to show a "need" for a CC permit makes it way to difficult to obtain one, for the "need" in some places is made so difficult to prove that the permit is basically allowed ony for those who are very politically connected or have lots of money or power or all three. Ask those who live in New York or Maryland how that's working out for them.
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Old 03-03-2013, 20:18   #536
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A quick aside

Just a quick aside here. I don't consider "safety" (whatever that is) to be the supreme factor when deciding whether to carry with a round in the chamber or not. For me, the primary factor is being ready. Are there potentially dangerous situations that can result from that? Of course there can be. However, I'd rather be ready, even though there may be some danger present, than to basically be defenseless when the bullets start flying, or the knives start slashing, or the clubs start swinging. No doubt about that, at least not for me.

For those who've never been the victim of a violent crime, this may seem way out there, but writing as a victim of not only one, but several violent crimes, or attempted crimes, believe me when I say being ready sure beats having to get ready when stuff goes down.

My 2 cents.
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Old 03-03-2013, 21:05   #537
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Yes. The trigger has got miles of pull also.
Personally, I love the trigger, but it's much different than a Glock/M&P style trigger. As you say, it has a long pull and is more along the lines of the newer hammerless revolvers.

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Of the total American CCW universe just what percentage of them do you believe are capable of this standard?

What percentage of this universe who are unable to achieve this level of move-and-shoot-accuracy (under unexpected extreme duress) do you think carry C1?
A very tiny percentage. Obviously, it depends on the target size at 25 yards. If it's the size of a barn, then quite a few. If an 8" target or so, a tiny percentage.

I'll elaborate on my post from earlier when I was on the tablet.

If I set aside my fear that if we increase the standard for getting CCL/CCW's that it will in fact simply be a "path to single payer" so to speak, meaning that once tougher standards become reasonable, then before long we will reverse the trend of the last couple decades of shall issue laws.

Anyway, that fear aside.

I do think that the current training and testing standards for concealed carry licences is too low. While I hate to use Europe as an example, because I think they go over the top and it isn't the direction we want America to go, but that said, take a place like Germany, they have tougher testing/licensing requirements to play golf or ride a jet ski than we have for carrying a concealed weapon (not speaking of background check, but only training & testing).

IMO, there should be a multi day course which includes extensive classroom time on the law and use of deadly force (this is covered to a degree in most/all states, but not the level it should be), there should be safety training, and then there should be some basic shooting/self defense shooting training. At minimum, two days, 4 hours in the classroom and 4 hours on the range each day. In fact, I think three or four days (wouldn't have to be consecutive, could be over three or four weekends) days of intensive training should be required.

While I fight all attempts to infringe on our 2nd amendment rights, at the same time, as responsible gun owners, I think there is a reasonable level of training that should be required before we carry our guns in the public for the purpose of defending ourselves.

At the same time, by raising the training/testing standards, the trade off should be national concealed carry, and limits on businesses (including hospitals and the like) that do business with the public from forbidding concealed carry.
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Old 03-03-2013, 21:22   #538
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Personally, I love the trigger, but it's much different than a Glock/M&P style trigger. As you say, it has a long pull and is more along the lines of the newer hammerless revolvers.



A very tiny percentage. Obviously, it depends on the target size at 25 yards. If it's the size of a barn, then quite a few. If an 8" target or so, a tiny percentage.

I'll elaborate on my post from earlier when I was on the tablet.

If I set aside my fear that if we increase the standard for getting CCL/CCW's that it will in fact simply be a "path to single payer" so to speak, meaning that once tougher standards become reasonable, then before long we will reverse the trend of the last couple decades of shall issue laws.

Anyway, that fear aside.

I do think that the current training and testing standards for concealed carry licences is too low. While I hate to use Europe as an example, because I think they go over the top and it isn't the direction we want America to go, but that said, take a place like Germany, they have tougher testing/licensing requirements to play golf or ride a jet ski than we have for carrying a concealed weapon (not speaking of background check, but only training & testing).

IMO, there should be a multi day course which includes extensive classroom time on the law and use of deadly force (this is covered to a degree in most/all states, but not the level it should be), there should be safety training, and then there should be some basic shooting/self defense shooting training. At minimum, two days, 4 hours in the classroom and 4 hours on the range each day. In fact, I think three or four days (wouldn't have to be consecutive, could be over three or four weekends) days of intensive training should be required.

While I fight all attempts to infringe on our 2nd amendment rights, at the same time, as responsible gun owners, I think there is a reasonable level of training that should be required before we carry our guns in the public for the purpose of defending ourselves.

At the same time, by raising the training/testing standards, the trade off should be national concealed carry, and limits on businesses (including hospitals and the like) that do business with the public from forbidding concealed carry.
Agreed. Extensive training is absolutely lacking today. In some states, no training/exam is required - just shove the gun in your pants and you got yourself a ccw.
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Old 03-03-2013, 21:26   #539
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Apropos your comment "lets also require that any person applying for a permit must clearly demonstrate that carrying a weapon is essential for protecting himself/herself from eminent danger of attack." ... I totally disagree with this. Having to show a "need" for a CC permit makes it way to difficult to obtain one, for the "need" in some places is made so difficult to prove that the permit is basically allowed ony for those who are very politically connected or have lots of money or power or all three. Ask those who live in New York or Maryland how that's working out for them.
This comment about 'need' was totally tongue-in-cheek.
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Old 03-03-2013, 21:32   #540
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Sorry I struck a nerve with you. Obviously something that I said hit home. How can someone post page after page of total crap trying to rationalize the fact that they have to carry a firearm with an empty chamber to keep from shooting themselves of others on accident? I did not say 'shooting in a yoga pose or shooting targets a mile away'. You are the one acting the fool. You should be able to shoot on the move and make hits at 25 yards. If all you have even done is shoot just standing or sitting at the square range like most it is no wonder such things seem so foreign. I did the same thing for many,many years. Get some quality training and it will open up a whole new world.
If you want to make rational arguments in polite manner justifying your mode of carry - I'm all ears. I'm open to civil substantive discussion. But if you come here rehashing talking points you heard from someone without spending 2 seconds considering arguments against your talking points AND you delivering your talking points while insulting polite and thoughtful members of this forum - your opinions do not belong in reasonable conversation among intelligent men. Treat others with respect, and they will likely do the same for you. Until then, I couldn't care less about what you have to say.
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