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Old 03-06-2013, 10:58   #626
vandros
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
...I'm still trying to decide if I want to carry C1 with a safety. The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that surprise attacks are avoidable by being alert and staying away from risky places at certain times...
I generally agree with you. But, if this feature makes glock as safe as one carried in c3 (and has zero effect on glock reliability), why not?
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:00   #627
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I can't find the statements he supposedly made regarding the Cominolli safety which indicated LEOs who have their gun snatched would be safer if the bad guy has to look for a manual safety to fire the Glock. Again, this is hearsay, so it may be untrue.
I actually think this might be the reason why these police departments don't want others to know they have this feature. Perhaps they want it to be a surprise to BG who snatches a glock out of their holster expecting it to have no such feature.
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:05   #628
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Where and when might this scenario happen if the principles of situational awareness are followed in a disciplined way? If locations where such an attack would likely happen are avoided, how would this scenario be a plausible threat?

I'm challenging the reality of this kind of assault in the spirit of trying to understand the logical, factual basis of need for C1 preparedness. I'd like to get down to a straight forward, factual explanation for using such attack scenarios to justify the C1 carry mode. Somewhere there must be a substantive explanation beyond "it can happen any time, any where".

Outside of a home invasion, where or when might rape happen if SA/danger avoidance is carefully practiced? Other than parking lots, alleys, isolated park locations and other avoidable places, where are we vulnerable to surprise threats?

Again, if responsible people follow principles of situational awareness and purposefully avoid potential danger spots, when would such attacks happen?
If, maybe.... Again you are at a disadvantage if you do not carry with a round in the chamber. Accept it. Face two people at each about 7 yards from each other and give them Glocks. You have 2 minutes to make ready and then when the timer sounds it is kill or be killed. Do you think it would be wiser to leave the chamber empty and rack the slide after the timer goes off? It is just plain stupid at this point. Carry with an empty chamber. Please continue to do it your way.

Last edited by 1911pro; 03-06-2013 at 11:09..
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:36   #629
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If, maybe.... Again you are at a disadvantage if you do not carry with a round in the chamber. Accept it. Face two people at each about 7 yards from each other and give them Glocks. You have 2 minutes to make ready and then when the timer sounds it is kill or be killed. Do you think it would be wiser to leave the chamber empty and rack the slide after the timer goes off? It is just plain stupid at this point. Carry with an empty chamber. Please continue to do it your way.
Thanks.

I know you think this exercise is silly, but please explain why you think it is reasonable to believe you may actually be face-to-face with two guys intent on killing you with their Glocks.

What have you experienced, read on the net or in Ohio's crime report, learned through research, heard at a lecture or otherwise discovered that can be examined thoughtfully and logically to justify your belief that you and your family are at risk of a SURPRISE attack? Putting emotion and the chatter you've read on forums aside, what is the source of your decision to carry C1? Maybe it was a statement by your SD instructor. Maybe your cop friend gave you the advice. Where did your motivation for C1 come from? Is it something you've thought through in an analytical way?

You have taken a position here, and criticized others who choose a different carry mode, without explaining why, in intellectual terms, you have adopted C1. I'm just asking for you to explain why you chose C1 the way I've justified my choice of C3.

I look forward to your response.

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Old 03-06-2013, 11:39   #630
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I can't find the statements he supposedly made regarding the Cominolli safety which indicated LEOs who have their gun snatched would be safer if the bad guy has to look for a manual safety to fire the Glock. Again, this is hearsay, so it may be untrue.
I read of one incident where that happened with an H&K P7 and I'm sure that it has happened with other guns that have safeties but it isn't something I would count on.

Most safeties are pretty intuitive so it might give you time to access a BUG but probably not much more.

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Old 03-06-2013, 11:47   #631
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I will say that on an intellectual level I and a lot of others who have been carrying C1 Glocks for years regard them as perfectly safe when handled with the proper respect.

On a gut level more than a few of us are unwilling to carry a C1 Glock in the appendix carry position.

We could spend another 25 pages analyzing this also.

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Old 03-06-2013, 11:52   #632
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Thanks.

I know you think this exercise is silly, but please explain why you think it is reasonable to believe you may actually be face-to-face with two guys intent on killing you with their Glocks.
I can't answer for 1911pro but I don't think that is an unreasonable scenario.

It happens every day. I'm glad you feel safe in your neighborhood but to be honest, evil can visit you anywhere. It visits people every day that thought they were safe.

They are the ones that get described as "unarmed victim".

Just like a few moments when you aren't 100% can lead to an AD, it can also lead to a lack of situation awarness at just the wrong time. None of us is 100% all the time.

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Old 03-06-2013, 11:54   #633
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I will say that on an intellectual level I and a lot of others who have been carrying C1 Glocks for years regard them as perfectly safe when handled with the proper respect.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
This may be the most revealing (and honest) answer of all.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 03-06-2013 at 11:55..
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:55   #634
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Thanks.

I know you think this exercise is silly, but please explain why you think it is reasonable to believe you may actually be face-to-face with two guys intent on killing you with their Glocks.

What have you experienced, read on the net or in Ohio's crime report, learned through research, heard at a lecture or otherwise discovered that can be examined thoughtfully and logically to justify your belief that you and your family are at risk of a SURPRISE attack? Putting emotion and the chatter you've read on forums aside, what is the source of your decision to carry C1? Maybe it was a statement by your SD instructor. Maybe your cop friend gave you the advice. Where did your motivation for C1 come from? Is it something you've thought through in an analytical way?

You have taken a position here, and criticized others who choose a different carry mode, without explaining why, in intellectual terms, you have adopted C1. I'm just asking for you to explain why you chose C1 the way I've justified my choice of C3.

I look forward to your response.
It was a made up senerio to show that it would be stupid to not take advantage of a round in the chamber. You may want to read it again. I myself do not need anyone to tell me if something is right or wrong. It is just common sense. You cannot teach it.
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Old 03-06-2013, 13:24   #635
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It was a made up senerio to show that it would be stupid to not take advantage of a round in the chamber. You may want to read it again. I myself do not need anyone to tell me if something is right or wrong. It is just common sense. You cannot teach it.
Thanks.

I can't debate/discuss a topic with someone who refuses to explain his position with concrete, logical points. Your explanation that "common sense" is the reason for C1 falls far short of an intellectually honest response. Should someone new to carrying a handgun follow this 'common sense' guideline if a Glock is the gun he's starting with?

On the other hand, happyguy's statement that he is absolutely comfortable with his ability to carry C1 safely rings true to me. From previous posts I know he is safety conscious, mature, been carrying for many years without incident, and he clearly understands the responsibility and accountability that goes with C1.

A lot of folks who argue for C1 haven't really tried to figure out why they do it. That's why they can't give honest, insightful answers for their choice. They use terms like "stupid not to have a round in the chamber" and its "common sense" to carry C1 to mask the fact they actually don't know why they do it.

Vandros- I'm still thinkin' about a Cominolli safety. I suspect Mas will be uncomfortable commenting about a manual safety in the context of a C1/C3 discussion. He's obviously an expert SD teacher who endorses C1 for people in his advanced training classes. Since lots of semi-autos are designed with a manual safety, he may say the Cominolli is just fine.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 03-06-2013 at 16:48..
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Old 03-06-2013, 13:59   #636
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Thanks.

I can't debate/discuss a topic with someone who doesn't want to explain their position with concrete, logical points. Your explanation that "common sense" is the reason for C1 falls far short of an intellectually honest response.

On the other hand, happyguy's statement that he is absolutely comfortable with his ability to carry C1 safely rings true to me. From previous posts I know he is safety conscious, mature, been carrying for years without incident, and he clearly understands the responsibility and accountability that goes with C1.

A lot of folks who argue for C1 haven't really tried to figure out why they do it. That's why they can't give honest, insightful answers for their choice. They use terms like "stupid not to have a round in the chamber" and its "common sense" to carry C1 to mask the fact they actually don't know why they do it.

I'm still thinkin' about a Cominolli safety. I suspect Mas will be uncomfortable commenting about a manual safety in the context of a C1/C3 discussion. He's obviously an expert SD teacher who endorses C1 for people in his advanced training classes.
My god man this is not rocket science. I carry with a round in the chamber because it is faster and more reliable to draw from a holster concealed that it is to try and rack the slide doing the same. Venture out into the real world and do some timed shooting yourself and see which is slower. Again get some training and let it answer your questions.
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Old 03-06-2013, 15:22   #637
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My god man this is not rocket science. I carry with a round in the chamber because it is faster and more reliable to draw from a holster concealed that it is to try and rack the slide doing the same. Venture out into the real world and do some timed shooting yourself and see which is slower. Again get some training and let it answer your questions.
You're absolutely right, it ain't rocket science. Somehow, however, it just seems the decision to carry a weapon chambered, without a safety, should be based on more than "it is faster and more reliable".

Incidentally, I've skated through 72 years in the real world without being attacked, being threatened or knowing anyone personally who was assaulted with a weapon. Based on my life experience, I'd have a hard time explaining why its necessary or appropriate to carry a Glock chambered for self defense. Maybe your experience has been different than mine.

Anyway, I sincerely hope your life over many years to come is as safe as mine has been. Make your SD decisions according to your judgement and your conscience, and pray you never have to pull the trigger. Good luck.

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Old 03-06-2013, 15:30   #638
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You're absolutely right, it ain't rocket science. Somehow, however, it just seems the decision to carry a weapon chambered without a safety should be based on more than "it is faster and more reliable".

Incidentally, I've skated through 72 years in the real world without being attacked, being threatened or knowing anyone personally who was assaulted with a weapon. Based on my life experience, I'd have a hard time explaining why its necessary or appropriate to carry a Glock chambered for defense against attack. Maybe your experience has been different than mine.

Anyway, I sincerely hope your life over many years to come is as safe as mine has been. Make your SD decisions according to your judgement and your conscience, and pray you never have to pull the trigger. Good luck.
Thanks. Good luck to you also and take care.
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Old 03-06-2013, 15:33   #639
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I recall Ayoob said it is a reasonable modification and there had been no reports of it failing and tying up the gun.

He is on GT in the GATE forums. Maybe he would be willing to revisit it.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
Here's Mr. Ayoob's reply.
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Old 03-06-2013, 16:42   #640
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Here's Mr. Ayoob's reply.
Thanks for asking Mas to comment. His thoughts about the Cominolli safety are important to my consideration of whether or not to try one. Hearing from a noted authority that they have proven to be reliable is pretty persuasive.
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Old 03-06-2013, 21:25   #641
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One in the chamber or not?

OF COURSE!!!

Do you want to live and protect your family or not?
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Old 03-07-2013, 04:37   #642
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Ok, let's try this for new.

In the Colorado Senate hearings the other day on their seven anti-gun laws, a woman who testified had been raped and talked about how she might have prevented it if she had a gun. A Democratic state Senator responded and told her that statistics show that if she had had a gun it is more likely she would have been hurt or killed with that gun (think she was already hurt by the rape) than defended herself with it.

So, the question is, if the stats are even close to true (I know they are often twisted greatly by the anti-gun crowd, such as labeling suicides as "accidents"), are you more likely to have your gun used against you if it is C3 than C1, because you are more likely to have it ripped away while taking the time to rack it or having a jam or other issue while trying to chamber a round?
I saw the video of that hearing. The dem lady also added that women who used a firearm in their defense from a rape were shot with their own gun 83 times for every one time a woman managed to save herself. 83 to 1. Now why do I think this dem lady was completely off her rocker. And there is this.

Who would have thought we'd be seeing bills like what we are seeing coming out of Colorado? Yes, Denver is very liberal but some of what they are proposing is more like what you would expect from New York or California... not Colorado.
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Old 03-07-2013, 07:14   #643
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You're absolutely right, it ain't rocket science. Somehow, however, it just seems the decision to carry a weapon chambered, without a safety, should be based on more than "it is faster and more reliable".

Incidentally, I've skated through 72 years in the real world without being attacked, being threatened or knowing anyone personally who was assaulted with a weapon. Based on my life experience, I'd have a hard time explaining why its necessary or appropriate to carry a Glock chambered for self defense. Maybe your experience has been different than mine.

Anyway, I sincerely hope your life over many years to come is as safe as mine has been. Make your SD decisions according to your judgement and your conscience, and pray you never have to pull the trigger. Good luck.
Thought you might find this of use.

Look at the Tueller drill, which found that the average person could cover 21 feet in 2 seconds or less and the average cop could not draw his chamber loaded gun and engage them without being stabbed.
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Old 03-07-2013, 09:54   #644
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Thought you might find this of use.

Look at the Tueller drill, which found that the average person could cover 21 feet in 2 seconds or less and the average cop could not draw his chamber loaded gun and engage them without being stabbed.
The 21 ft. drill did show how quickly an attacker can close that distance to strike a blow. If a lunatic is determined to kill someone, chances are he will be able to reach his victim. I accept the Tueller results.

My SD tactical plan is based on avoiding places where I might cross paths with an attacker. I make it a practice to avoid being on foot in dark parking lots, parking garages, alleys, taverns and other places where I'd be easy prey. There are times when I have to go to the drug store or buy gasoline at night, so danger avoidance isn't a perfect tactic; it does reduce risk dramatically.

Another reality that works in my favor is that there probably aren't many lunatics on the prowl looking for a random victim to stab. As the Ohio crime statistics show, most murders are committed against past and present acquaintances. Random murders are very, very infrequent. It also seems clear that a large proportion of deadly attacks are against minority members.

If someone in my neck of the woods is intent on commiting a random murder with a knife, chances are the victim will not be me...unless he shows up at Starbucks between 7 and 10 am.

I'm not a very proficient pistolero, 1911pro, so I depend on simple, common sense tactics to keep the Mrs. and me out of harms way. My lifestyle provides plenty of pleasure and adventure without much concern about becoming a murder victim from 21' or any other distance.

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Old 03-07-2013, 10:05   #645
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Photofeller,

I once walked into a bank between the time the robber walked out and the police showed up. A minute or two difference and I would have walked in on a robbery in progress. This was during "bankers hours" in a nice part of town.

I also had a couple of "gentlemen" try to strongarm rob me, at three in the afternoon, in the parking lot of the Aberdeen, MS Federal Courthouse while there was armed security not even 50 yards away.

This doesn't even begin to count my experiences in LE which have helped shape my attitude about how and when I carry.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:48   #646
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Photofeller,

I once walked into a bank between the time the robber walked out and the police showed up. A minute or two difference and I would have walked in on a robbery in progress. This was during "bankers hours" in a nice part of town.

I also had a couple of "gentlemen" try to strongarm rob me, at three in the afternoon, in the parking lot of the Aberdeen, MS Federal Courthouse while there was armed security not even 50 yards away.

This doesn't even begin to count my experiences in LE which have helped shape my attitude about how and when I carry.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
You and I know these incidents can and do happen. Criminals can strike at church, Starbucks...anywhere at any time. You have been a victim while I have not.

Not all criminals go about their 'business' with the intent to kill. The bank robbery you mention probably wasn't a shootout. The courthouse incident probably didn't result in gunfire. Experiencing a situation in everyday life where I might actually have to kill another person in order to survive seems so unlikely, based on what I know about the world and my lifestyle, that it borders on unimaginable.

Concealed carry IS ONLY about having the means to kill in order to avoid being killed, and arguments in favor of C1 only center on its greater efficiency in the act of killing. Because the probability of being the target of a deadly attack is so low in my case, I carry only when I feel the need, and C3 is 'efficient' enough for me.

We are much more likely to be killed in a car accident than being a murder victim. When I think about all the risks I face each day, being attacked by someone intent on killing me is near the bottom of the list; in fact, the threat of being murdered hardly makes the list at all.

You live by your experiences and judgement, and I live by mine. I think you could say we are both right.

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Old 03-07-2013, 10:59   #647
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Photofeller,

I once walked into a bank between the time the robber walked out and the police showed up. A minute or two difference and I would have walked in on a robbery in progress. This was during "bankers hours" in a nice part of town.

I also had a couple of "gentlemen" try to strongarm rob me, at three in the afternoon, in the parking lot of the Aberdeen, MS Federal Courthouse while there was armed security not even 50 yards away.

This doesn't even begin to count my experiences in LE which have helped shape my attitude about how and when I carry.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy


See, and that's just it; time. Lots of studies have been done, and done long ago, on how much time a person often has to get the gun out and get a shot off. It is: a half second. That's it. That includes 'from concealment'. That also includes making the decision to pull the gun and fire it before you even pull the gun. Seriously, LOTS of people will completely freeze up in total fear at that moment... and so the term "petrified". So, imagine you are facing IT and time yourself and practice. You'll quickly realize that to carry a handgun with an empty chamber for protection will get you a Darwin Award.

Btw, those 83:1 stats from that IDIOT democrat are TOTALLY full of crap. Flat out lies. Call them what they are.

Hey, did ya'll hear the latest from that democrat in Florida? She proposed a law that says you have to take an anger management class if you want to buy any ammo... as in "before"......

They walk amongst us....
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Old 03-07-2013, 11:06   #648
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... to carry a handgun with an empty chamber for protection will get you a Darwin Award...
Under your circumstances, perhaps. Under my circumstances, and circumstances of many folks on this forum, carrying glock in C1 will win you a Darwin Award considering associated risks.

Can we just stop with the insults? Make your argument, back it up with logic/evidence, be respectful. Perhaps add something useful to the discussion? Is it too much to ask? Some of you act like you are going thru puberty.
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Old 03-07-2013, 14:02   #649
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Here's Mr. Ayoob's reply.
"When this device [Cominolli safety] came out,we tested it and tried to make it fail. We didn't, and in all these years I have yet to hear of a broken one.

A big advantage to the manual safety which many people miss is the weapon retention factor. If the opponent momentarily gets your gun away from you and tries to shoot you with it, he has to figure out that it is the rare Glock with a manual safety before he can make it go bang. This can buy you time to rectify the situation.

A competent user, knowing the safety is there and making it part of regular practice as with a cocked and locked 1911, should have no more trouble using it reflexively than someone with a familiar 1911 that doesn't have an ambi safety.

While I don't know of any departments issuing the gun that way at this time, I'm sure there are many Cominolli-equipped Glocks being carried on departments with broad privately owned/department approved weapons policies."

best,
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Old 03-07-2013, 15:47   #650
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We are much more likely to be killed in a car accident than being a murder victim. When I think about all the risks I face each day, being attacked by someone intent on killing me is near the bottom of the list; in fact, the threat of being murdered hardly makes the list at all.


Quote:
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See, and that's just it; time. Lots of studies have been done, and done long ago, on how much time a person often has to get the gun out and get a shot off. It is: a half second. That's it. That includes 'from concealment'. That also includes making the decision to pull the gun and fire it before you even pull the gun. Seriously, LOTS of people will completely freeze up in total fear at that moment... and so the term "petrified". So, imagine you are facing IT and time yourself and practice. You'll quickly realize that to carry a handgun with an empty chamber for protection will get you a Darwin Award.
So in my case the higher chance of having a ND compared to facing a potential life-or-death situation comes down to a half second.

Once any defender understands the necessity for drawing a weapon he/she should be prepared to follow through with whatever method he/she has chosen. I realize there may be circumstances that favor having a loaded chamber, but that necessitates my disregarding the greater chance of suffering a ND incident. Right now I'm operating under the recognition that I'll have to use that half second after the decision to draw a deadly weapon to rack the slide, if at all possible.

And thanks to the GT member who pointed out that a moment's carelessness about situational awareness can be as unforgiving as when handling a C1-condition firearm. Comments like these only make me more wary around firearms, which I count as a positive thing.
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