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Old 03-02-2013, 19:32   #501
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Old 03-02-2013, 21:45   #502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
First, I was on my mobile phone and short on time, so I didn't feel like trying to scratch out a long reply, repeating what I had already said, just because you either failed to comprehend what I had posted or were intentionally twisting it (most likely the latter).
That’s a cheap shot! I’ve been on this board for more than 10 years; and (Ready?) of all the things others have accused me of (This place can be pretty petty, sometimes; so that would be a lot of stuff.) I’ve never before been accused of, ‘twisting’ anything. (Neither do I have a devious mind; with me you’ll always know, ‘what you’re getting’.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
Second, you started a long post with "Tnedator, let's be blatantly obvious with one another:" and then proceeded to craft your reply in such a way to either twist or completely fabricate things I had posted in this thread, (SIC) however you were "clearly" addressing and disagreeing with my positions and statements in this thread.
This is going to come as a shock; but it ain’t all about you! I didn’t, ‘craft’ anything in order to cast YOU in a bad light. I addressed several different subjects in the same reply (and I thought I did this rather straightforwardly, too).

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
I suggest you use the search function, to search for my posts in this thread and read them, so that you will be less likely to "accidentally" mischaracterize my positions in the future -- any good pistolero has the forumcraft (SIC)(Just having a little fun with ya!)(Ed) necessary to search within a thread ...
Again, it ain’t all about you. You're attempting to label me with mean personal attributes which I do not possess, and for which you have no real proof - Other than your wild imagination!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
Third, I am not your friend. You speak to others with condescension. Quite honestly, I'm old enough and otherwise secure enough in my life to be able to choose to be "friends" with people that treat others with respect and dignity, in person or on the Net.
Hey, when you’re right, you’re right! We are not friends. As for treating others with, ‘respect and dignity’? I don’t know? The ease with which you flew into this huge rant of yours, kind ‘a, makes me doubt that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
Fourth, it looks like after your last "typical Arc" post, you realized that it wasn't actually me that had brought up arthritis as it relates to C1/C3, and have gone back and edited this post to say the arthritis comment wasn't aimed at me, but made in general.
Now, you’re, ‘reaching’! Here, it’s YOU who is, ‘stretching the truth’. I often edit my posts; but, only for: form, layout, and (yes) content; but never with any sort of nefarious literary purpose in mind. I don’t know who you think you’re talking to; but I assure you, it ain’t me. Fact is that you don’t know me very well, at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
I commend you on realizing your mistake after you spouted off, but come on Arc, man up and don't play little "oops, I ____ up, so let me edit my post and put P.S. that was meant in general, not to you" games, when you clearly addressed me at the beginning of the post and everything else in the post was directed at my comments/positions in this thread, including your arthritis crack, even though you were mistaken about me being the one that brought up arthritis.
If we’re going to throw labels around, now who’s being condescending? I’m going to leave everything in my posts on this subject exactly as they are, right now. If I find out, later on, that I misspelled something or used ambiguous punctuation, I’m not going to change it in the way that I usually do.

Anyone who wants to track the subject matter exchanged between us is welcome to do so. You are accusing me of things beyond my well-known nature. Sordid methods of reasoning that I, simply, do not do - Period! You’ve got me wondering, though: Have you ever had a problem with, either, megalomania or paranoia?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
It's good forumcraft (SIC)(Where did you get that great word from?) to actually know what the other person did or did not post when responding to them, especially if you are going to take a tone of condescension in your reply.
Yes! I think you’d be very well advised to take your own advice here, too. (You’re overplaying the, ‘condescension thing’, though. I suggest you tone it down.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
Fifth, your statements about my position on loading/unloading are disingenuous at best. You know very well I did not say the act of loading/unloading was dangerous in and of itself.
Seriously, do you drink and post at the same time? Do you? What’s this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
The other thing that is interesting, and I (SIC)(syntax) point I was trying to make to those that say they routinely switch between C1 and C3, is that the most likely time for an AD is loading/unloading. If you routinely (some made it sound like daily or multiple times a day), go from C1 to C3, then you are GREATLY increasing the chances of an ND.

IMHO, the most important thing is to choose a method and stick with it. If you think C3 is adequate, then let it be adequate whether in Wal-mart or driving through a dangerous neighborhood.

Then, leave your weapon loaded in that config (SIC) all the time, except when at the range firing it, and at home cleaning it. When at home cleaning it, load/unload in a safe direction (or even create a sand or other bullet trap to point towards).

If you want to dry fire on a regular basis, buy a second, "range" gun, that is empty except when you are practicing at the range. Use that gun to dry fire at home (obviously, checking immediately before dry firing and after any pause or interruption) and leave you carry weapon loaded and holstered.
A more disingenuous (To use one of your favorite words) and contorted reply I’ve never read on this board! Now, pay attention:

The acts of loading and unloading are NOT the most likely times for an ND to occur. (Ready?) Holstering and lapses in trigger finger discipline are! So is taking it for granted that the pistol is empty while you’re handling it! Nobody who is able to demonstrate competence with a pistol needs to be worried about switching between C-3, and C-1. I’ve been doing this, again and again, several times over, every time I go to the range; and loading rapidly in more IDPA matches than I’m able to recall for well over two or three decades, now.

Neither do I see any necessity for most gunmen to be, as you say, constantly changing between C-3, and C-1. You switch when you need to switch - That’s it! With me this is usually after I clear the holster and during the draw. Ain’t shot myself, yet, my friend! (Opps, didn’t mean to say that.) I got ‘a tell you: Your, ‘humble opinions’ on this subject are both, ambiguous, confusingly stated, and all screwed up. Your thoughts bear little or no resemblance to a competent pistolero’s behavior IN THE REAL WORLD!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
What I stated, and it is an irrefutable fact, was in regards to people worried about carrying C1, because they feel the odds of having an ND are far greater than being attacked, or simply because the odds of having an ND carrying C1 are far greater than carrying C3.
You need to work on the syntax of the above statement. Only you truly understand, ‘What’ it is that you’re trying to say? How, the heck, do you know, ‘what other people feel’? Furthermore, where are you getting your, ‘irrefutable facts’ from? (I think you’re drinking; I really do!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
My response to their position is "fine, everyone has to make a choice as to what is best for them." However, when they then add (as quite a few have) that they then routinely switch from C1 to C3 when they feel it is more likely that they might need to defend themselves, such as going into certain stores, a bad part of town, etc., and then when they leave that area, switching back, then there is no question that they are creating a habit that is more likely to lead to an ND.
Even though I doubt you think so, I’m going to try to be very candid with you: I think you’re resorting to hyperbole, and grossly overstating your argument. I’ve been shooting for, at least, as long as you have; and I’m not aware of masses of people shooting themselves in the foot or blowing their windshields out while switching from C-1 to C-3, or visa versa. (Where are you getting this stuff from?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
The following is a simple and irrefutable fact. When comparing a gun in kept in C1, kept in a holster, except when taken out at the range or for cleaning to a gun kept normally in C3, but routinely switched between C1 and C3 by loading and unloading, based on possible threat of the area you are about to travel in, which requires at times loading and unloading in a car while trying to be inconspicuous. There is ZERO doubt that in these scenarios, that the person switching from C1 to C3 and back again on a regular basis is more likely to have an ND than the person that keeps their gun holstered in C1 all the time.
Come on. Stop it! You are obviously a somewhat peevish, but, well educated man. You’re using sophistic examples in order to prove your case. My hands are getting sore while I just think about all this switching back and forth that you assert. Another thing: The only person who has repeatedly used the phrase, ‘regular basis’ is YOU! As for, ‘the great me’ (You will agree that I’m great, right!) I’ve been shooting pistols for more than 5 decades; and, know what? I’ve never had an ND with a pistol. Not with a pistol!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
As an experienced pistolero, you know doubt know that the two most likely times to have an AD/ND are when loading/unloading and when dry firing.

Dry firing AD/ND's are pretty self explanatory. They are the result of a person "assuming" the gun is empty when it isn't, which is more likely to happen with a person that "always assumes" their chamber is empty and therefore they only have to drop the mag. Granted, if they are following correct safety and gun handling protocols, they would visually and physically check the chamber, but again when they "know" the chamber is empty, because they "normally" carry C3, they are more likely to skip that step. That said, if proper steps are taken, nobody should have a dry fire AD/ND, even though all of us pistoleros know it happens far too often.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah! Stop it. You’re rambling, rationalizing, and repeating yourself. (You know, between the two of us, I’m starting to realize that it’s YOU who likes to take, ‘free license’ with words in order to bolster support for whatever suits your fancy at the moment.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
As it relates to loading/unloading, it should also be pretty self explanatory, but apparently the obvious isn't always obvious, even to trained pistoleros. I'll admit, I haven't been in many police stations, so I don't have a lot of experience in their procedures, beyond what I see on TV. However, I do have an experience I would like to share. I went to the MAG40 class about three years ago (Massad Ayoob, but I'm sure a pistolero like yourself knew that, but others may not). The course was hosted by Tom Givens of Rangemasters in Memphis. We had the training at the Memphis firearms training unit (FTU).

I won't go through all the details of the course, but I will point out something related to their indoor range, as well as their outdoor range rules. On the outdoor range, they made it VERY clear, that we could unload a weapon, and reload it at the end of the day, to put carry ammo in it, if we completed the act, racking the slide, while pointing at the berm/backstop of the range.

With their indoor range, which we didn't use during the course, they had a large red (maybe orange) bullet trap in place with signs instructing everyone to load/unload their weapons while pointing the muzzle inside the bullet trap. When we had occasion to need to load our weapons with carry ammo, before leaving each night, they instructed us to go to the indoor range and use the trap, just as the Memphis PD officers do when loading/unloading their weapons at the range.
Sand traps are in common use in many police stations. SO WHAT? We’re not, SPECIFICALLY, talking about loading or clearing a handgun. You’re back to using more of your sophistic examples, again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
For you, who by your own oft repeated words, are an experienced pistolero of the highest skill both in terms of competition and offensive/defensive use, to claim that a person is NO MORE LIKELY to have an AD/ND from loading/unloading a weapon, than keeping that weapon in a C1 condition in their holster and not removing it --- well, it's just beyond a ridiculous claim. A claim like that can only be made from someone who really isn't an expert pistolero, or someone who doesn't care about facts or honesty, or providing all the information for those that aren't "master pistoleros" to make an informed choice, but instead can only be made by someone trying to win an internet debate.
More of the same intellectual crap from a guy who likes to wallow in hyperbole. Highest skill level? By my own oft repeated words? I NEVER said that! You have assumed those disparaging remarks. Yes, since you’ve brought the subject up: I am a very good pistolero; but, since I had the heart attack, I’m only a shadow of the gunman that I used to be. My brain always knows; but, it’s difficult, these days, for my body to keep up. (Still I bet I’m able to outshoot …… YOU!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
Son, our goals in this thread might be different, and that may be the root of the problem. I'm not interested in trying to convince even a single person how great a pistolero I am, or how much more experience or knowledge I have, or even how great my ability to be nauseatingly verbose in my forum replies is. I'm not even trying to convince people to change their carry method. Instead, I'm simply trying to offer food for thought to those that might not have fully thought out all the issues related to C1/C3, and more specifically the potential self defense hazards when carrying C3, and from a safety standpoint, since those carrying C3 cite the reason as being "uncomfortable" carrying C1, because there is a greater chance of an ND.
Did you call me, ‘son’! Now you’re getting really low; and I’m becoming more and more certain that you do drink and post. Let me just say this: You might want to talk to your mother before you call me, ‘son’ again. As for being, ‘nauseatingly verbose’? Hey, YOU should talk! I mean, geeze! In the thousands of posts I have put up on this board YOU are the only one who’s accused me of such outrageous narcissism. People usually say that I’m helpful; the only type of respondent I ever seem to have trouble with are the guys with the real big egos, themselves. (It’s called, ‘psychological projection’; and I will admit that I’ve run into a number of these guys in the past. It's cyberspace!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
To these individuals, it's important they are making an informed decision by pointing out that if they routinely switch between C1 and C3 that they are in fact creating a FAR greater likelihood of ever having an AD/ND, as compared to leaving a gun holstered in C1, except when having to clean or use it at the range.
You’re, kind ‘a, like in, ‘brain freeze’ on this subject; aren’t you. I’m going to remind you: It ain’t all about you! You’ve made it very clear what your opinion is. What you fail to realize is that between what you think, and what I think: I BELIEVE that your position on the topic of C-1 vs. C-3 carry is FAR MORE INHERENTLY DANGEROUS than my own.

(You should read more, and outside of gun forums, too. Numerous impartial investigators have looked at the thousands of ND’s attributed to Glock pistols; and the bulk of the evidence (Ready?) IS on my side.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
My position that switching between C1 and C3 routinely, including when out of the house, in the car, etc., as the perceived threat level increases or decreases, being more likely to result in an AD/ND as compared to leaving a weapon C1 and holstered, is an irrefutable fact. It's the very reason that police departments have bullet traps for loading/unloading, but don't have steel lined rooms to walk into before strapping on their duty belt or holster, that already contains a "holstered" weapon in the C1 state.
There you go, again! Qualifying what you say with the modifier, ‘routinely’. Apparently you feel a strong need to limit the scope of your argument to what you consider to be the safest dialectic ground, possible. As for me? I feel no such need! (When you tell the truth, you don’t need to qualify everything you say.) Cool it with the, ‘irrefutable fact’ business, too; and stop crafting your arguments to fit the narrow premises and sophistic examples you like to use - OK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
You've yet to refute with any facts that loading/unloading is more dangerous than keeping a weapon C1 and holstered. Instead, you have bragged about your immense skill, and said that anyone and everyone should be able to load/unload a weapon, while blind folded on a roller coaster, while making out with the prom queen, or some other self aggrandizing statements along those lines that does nothing to help people reading this thread make an informed decision.
You know, you whine like a high school girl who didn't get asked to the prom. Were you a more honest person you’d stop making specious allusions to my presumed, ‘immense skill’. The only thing I’m willing to venture is that I’m, a heck of a lot, better with any sort of firearm than you - YOU! Any disinterested party reading this exchange between us should be able to see that I ain’t the one with the monstrous, freely assuming ego. You shouldn’t accuse me of, ‘flying high, wide, and handsome’ when it’s actually YOU who is, ‘running his mouth’.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
If you really are the great master pistolero you claim to be, why not take the position of offering good faith, honest pros and cons in a discussion like this, so that people that aren't master pistoleros like yourself, can make informed decisions and TRULY balance the risks of various carry options, which includes understanding the issues related with choosing to routinely switch between those states of carry.
One more time: There you go again! Running your mouth while attempting to put words in mine. I never said that I am a, ‘master pistolero’. YOU have accused me of that! If, however, you believe the nearly 20,000 posts* - many of them quite lengthy or on weighty subjects - justifies your assumption that I’m a, ‘master pistolero’ then, perhaps you are, for once, correct. (I should tell you, though, that I’m much better with a rifle or a shotgun than I’ve ever been with a pistol.) Oh, you know what? In 2007 I did take a standing ovation from an audience of police officers as I came off a pistol firing line; but, maybe, I was just having a good day!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
Please excuse any typos, but I'm already late for something and have to dart out of the house, so I don't have time to properly review and correct this post for typos.
You shouldn’t drive when you’re drunk! This said: We have a winner!

That's the longest rant I've ever received from anyone, anytime, on the Internet! (And I've received some beauties!) Now, after reading my reply I hope you'll go into the bathroom, open the medicine chest, pick out a strong laxative for yourself, and purge the rest of the crap out of your system.

By the way, forget the syntax and typos. I like the way you write! (You’re a writer or editor of some sort; aren't you.) You, obviously, didn't sleep through any of your English classes! (I hope I'm not being too condescending in saying that.) If you rationalized far less, assumed far less, and showed more of a regard for telling the truth and being sure you're correct before you hit that keyboard, I think I might be really impressed with you!

As it is, it's difficult for me to admire a guy who throws fits, and makes stuff up as he goes along. Right now, I feel more disappointment in your reply than anything else. All you're doing is, 'mudding the waters' by writing a lot of palaver, and accusing me of doing what you, yourself, are actually guilty of! (I'm not being condescending, now; am I!)

This thread HAS gone downhill, and lost a lot of its former didactic value. (That crap you wrote about changing between C-3, and C-1 carry is particularly misleading.) Sadly I am going to have to agree with you on one thing, though: I'm very particular about whom I, both, associate or correspond with. You're right: We're definitely not friends. **



* During the first three years, and through several server changes on this board I’ve posted under other screen names. (One time I was locked out of my Arc Angel account for almost a year.)

** I will NOT make another reply to a thread which you've, now, largely ruined. My only regret is that anyone who reads this far into the thread is going to find little to benefit from at the end.

Last edited by Arc Angel; 03-03-2013 at 08:35..
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Old 03-02-2013, 23:42   #503
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As you have stated you won't be replying in this thread again, I won't bother going through point by point and responding to your post to me. Clearly, your posting style does not appeal to me, and mine does not appeal to you. Kind of an oil and water thing, I suppose.

I'll simply say this. The point of a thread like this should be to share varying viewpoints and facts about the subject at hand. As you have no doubt seen, a number of people have stated that my pointing out the extra risk/opportunities created by routinely switching from C1 to C3 and back (which as Indicated in my post to photofeller includes holstering and unholstering the C1 pistol) increase the likelihood of an ND. Also, I did not magically add the concept of "routinely" switching between C1 and C3, that was mentioned by a number of people in this thread as to how they carry C3 when they believe the threat level is low, and C1 when it's higher (different people worded it different ways).

To summarize. Nothing from here on is directed at Arc, but instead for others that are maybe just reading the end of this thread, or who may have been confused by my positions/assertions based on replies made to them. my positions on C1 vs. C3 are:

1. First and foremost, a person should carry in the manner they are comfortable with. If you are not comfortable carrying C1, then DON'T.

2. When considering C1 or C3, one should not just look at the extra time (maybe a half second or so) it takes to rack the slide after drawing the weapon. I disagree with those that make the case that the .5 seconds could be life and death, and therefore that is the overriding factor in determining C1 vs. C3. I say that from this standpoint.

Yes, the half second could be the difference in defending yourself successfully or not, but so is the difference in time it takes to draw from a 3:00 OWB with a jacket, vs. a 5:00 OWB with a polo shirt, or from a tucked IWB or a gun in a smart carry. The way you carry can have a far greater impact on overall draw time than the .5 seconds added by racking your slide, so in and of itself you can't point to the time as the major factor for carrying C1.

I think the far greater factor to be considered is that in that VERY unlikely chance that you have to defend yourself, you may very well have to use your weak hand to defend yourself or maintain space with an attacker or otherwise be unable to use your weak hand to rack the slide. Those that argue that maintaining situational awareness will prevent you from ever having someone attack you from a few feet away are living in a dream world.

There isn't a lot of published data, but data published by the NYPD, LAPD and others indicate that a large percentage of police officers shot are shot from less than 6 feet.

There is simply no way to know who will pull a knife or gun, when you are passing people on the street, passing a parked car, a dark doorway, etc. As a result, while most of us will thankfully never have to use a weapon to defend ourselves, if we do, there is a significant chance it will be at close quarters and we will be drawing with one hand, while we are holding off an attacker with the other hand, or on the ground being pummeled, etc. In these situations it will be difficult or impossible to rack the slide with one hand.

5. To those that consider C1 dangerous from the standpoint of having a greater chance of a negligent discharge, but who say for that reason they routinely switch between C1 and C3 depending on what part of town they are going to, perceived threats, etc., I point out the following.

A holstered weapon in C1 state will not result in an ND. A weapon routinely changed from C3 to C1 and then holstered, followed by unholstering and changing from C3 to C1 creates FAR more opportunities to have an ND. It doesn't mean you will, because if you follow correct safety measures, you should never have an ND, but obviously, if the argument is made that regularly switching between C3 and C1 is not increasing the odds of an ND if you follow proper safety protocols, then it's hard to make the argument that carrying a weapon C1 and following proper safety protocols increase the likelihood of having an ND. You can't argue both sides of it.

The fact is that an ND happens when there is a lapse in proper safety protocol, so from the standpoint of the "likelihood" of an ND, it boils down to how many times the gun is in a state where an ND could happen (drawing from holster while C1, returning to holster while C1, handling while C1 -- carrying at safe ready, racking, loading/unloading, etc.).

So, the when determining liklihood, it all depends on how YOU handle your weapon. If for instance every night you take it out of your holster and put it on your nightstand, and then re-holster it in the morning, then if it is C1, you have multiple opportunities for an ND. The same behavior with a C3 guns, assuming it is really unloaded, does not create the same opportunities. On the flip side, changing between C3 and C1 and back at various times during the day or week, creates opportunities for ND that do not exist if your C1 gun remains in its holster.

In the end, everyone must decide for themselves. There are many factors that should be considered, among them is how often you will draw your weapon? Do you live and routinely travel in a place with a near zero crime rate? How often do you train with your weapon? Do you routinely have to take your pistol out of its holster and lock it in your car (such as entering a federal building) and do so by removing the gun, not the holster? And so many more questions/factors that must be considered.

It's a personal decision that each person has to make for themselves, after weighing all of the factors -- and there are many.
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Old 03-03-2013, 03:02   #504
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You need two hands to rack the slide. I always carry with one in the chamber!
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Old 03-03-2013, 06:55   #505
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
You seem to be a thoughtful guy, so let me ask why you believe it makes sense to carry with one in the chamber. Does the incidence of serious attacks in your community worry you? Or, have you simply decided that if you're going to carry, you might as well go C1? I'm beginning to believe that the latter reason is the primary driver for C1. In other words, its more of a "why not" decision than it is a "I really need to" call.

Do you think Glock requires more careful handling than your Sig?
I'd like to chime in on this for a moment. Several days ago, I watched a video with a firearms instructor who had fine credentials (I do not know of him as he is in Memphis) and has trained over 35,000 civilians. The video was a pick of 10 of the over 50 people he has trained who have had to use their training in their defense. While some were in questionable areas, others were in nice upscale places where one would never have thought of being attacked. THIS is prime meat for devious folks out to do bad things.

The point being is we don't choose the locations where we will be attacked.... the BG's do this for us. Now granted, there are places where the prudent person may wish to avoid. However, most of us go about our daily routines giving little thought of being attacked simply because we feel safe where we are and with what we are doing.

I live in an affluent area that has a good police presence and a lot of retail businesses catering to our wishes. And we do have periodic crimes that occur. Robberies, carjackings (i.e. kidnappings), malicious assaults... the usual. Affluence does attract evil people bent on doing evil things.

Still I respect the decisions of those who may choose to carry without a round in the chamber. Something I would never do, but to each his own.
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Old 03-03-2013, 06:59   #506
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Show me the documentation. Glock doesn't seem to know about it. Also, that is an awful big if. It's not something I worry about. But if you do, then don't carry a Glock.
Providing the safety block is in place and working properly, this is not going to happen as it will block the striker from moving forward. I have also never heard of this mishap taking place but one has to assume that anything is possible with a mechanical device made by humans.

I have said all along that one should carry in the manner they choose and that they are comfortable with, regardless of what others say or think. It's fine to pose this question on a gun website, but as we have seen on this thread, there are strong opinions on both sides of the issue. There have been some good and valid reasons given to support each argument, however it still boils down to an individual decision.

I like the fact that a few have pointed out the danger of switching from C3 to C1 and back again depending upon their perception of potential threats to their safety. For me, I don't want to have to think of whether or not I chambered a round before entering an area in question for the same reason I don't want any external safeties on my carry sidearms. All I want to have to worry about is pulling and pulling (pulling the gun and pulling the trigger). I want the least amount of actions between those to events.

Once again, a personal preference and as such that is really how is should remain.
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Last edited by SouthernBoyVA; 03-03-2013 at 07:10..
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Old 03-03-2013, 08:13   #507
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Originally Posted by 1911pro View Post
I may have missed something in your earlier posts. Do you have any formal training other than what was required for your CCW permit? I am just wondering as to how you see merit to your method of carry. Honestly if someone attacks you they are not going to wait for you to rack the slide. Ask any professional firearms instructor who makes their living training civilian, military and or police if they think you should carry without a round in the chamber. I have taken classes from both Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn and can tell you neither would recommend this method of carry. This is not to say that there are not people who maybe just should not carry a firearm. There are people out there who should not be allowed to drive a car. You may not be one of these people, but your views would probably change if you would be willing to put the time, money and effort into a few training classes and then practice often what you learn. What does disservice to the OP is when someone with no experience tries to justify their own insecurities with such an opinion. We have a whole government full of elected officials already doing this. For god sake get some real training before giving out advice. No one is doing you any favors by supporting your view.
My formal training with firearms has only been in the US Army, a NRA course or two for handguns and a group class on concealed carry/SD. Informal experience comes from about 60 years of gun ownership, a fair amount of hunting, and firing range outings. I've had a concealed carry license for about 20 years.

What you view as "insecurities" in my behavior I consider to be manifestations of a very secure individual. I don't carry most of the time. When I am armed, it is usually with a Glock or Kahr in C3.

Your recommendation to get more training is good advice for most of us. What keeps me from getting it is I have no desire to become a "pistolero", a man of the gun. I've readily admitted that I'm not qualified to carry a Glock in C1. Carrying a gun for self defense is not a central part of my daily life. I suspect that many of us don't have the training, experience, maturity or focus needed to carry a deadly weapon chambered, only a trigger pull away from discharge.

My endorsement of C3 here is to bring a counter view to those who champion C1 as the 'size that fits all'. I strongly believe there are many among us who are closer to my skill level than those of you who can cite week-long training experiences with notable teachers at wonderful facilities.

The people who come here new to handguns and/or new to concealed carry have some growing to do before they can safely strap on a chambered pistol and go forth among their families, friends and fellow citizens. The OP of this thread has a lot to learn or his initial post wouldn't have asked the question it did. Still, the consistent advice he received has been C1 without caveat, C1 or you might as well carry a hammer, C1 or you're insecure or scared of your gun. I think thats questionable advice for folks like the OP and others who come here for fundamental guidance.

I understand bad things can happen anywhere. I also understand that most of us will experience a lifetime free of deadly attack by exercising good judgement and situational awareness. Deciding that a firearm is needed every day, every where because of the fear of attack is a decision made out of choice, not out of necessity. I don't quarrel against the decision to carry for self defense. I do quarrel with the notion that CC requires C1 regardless of the person's competence with his/her firearm of choice. Some crawling is necessary before we can walk proudly among the pistoleros of society.

Maybe my participation hasn't been productive. I know it hasn't been popular. I think it has at least caused conversation about carry mode choices, the reality of NDs, the need for competence, the responsibility and accountability of CC. If thats bad, shoot me.

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Old 03-03-2013, 08:54   #508
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
My formal training with firearms has only been in the US Army, a NRA course or two for handguns and a group class on concealed carry/SD. Informal experience comes from about 60 years of gun ownership, a fair amount of hunting, and firing range outings. I've had a concealed carry license for about 20 years.

What you view as "insecurities" in my behavior I consider to be manifestations of a very secure individual. I don't carry most of the time. When I am armed, it is usually with a Glock or Kahr in C3.

Your recommendation to get more training is good advice for most of us. What keeps me from getting it is I have no desire to become a "pistolero", a man of the gun. I've readily admitted that I'm not qualified to carry a Glock in C1. Carrying a gun for self defense is not a central part of my daily life. I suspect that many of us don't have the training, experience, maturity or focus needed to carry a deadly weapon chambered, only a trigger pull away from discharge.

My endorsement of C3 here is to bring a counter view to those who champion C1 as the 'size that fits all'. I strongly believe there are many among us who are closer to my skill level than those of you who can cite week-long training experiences with notable teachers at wonderful facilities.

The people who come here new to handguns and/or new to concealed carry have some growing to do before they can safely strap on a chambered pistol and go forth among their families, friends and fellow citizens. The OP of this thread has a lot to learn or his initial post wouldn't have asked the question it did. Still, the consistent advice he received has been C1 without caveat, C1 or you might as well carry a hammer, C1 or you're insecure or scared of your gun. I think thats questionable advice for folks like the OP and others who come here for fundamental guidance.

I understand bad things can happen anywhere. I also understand that most of us will experience a lifetime free of deadly attack by exercising good judgement and situational awareness. Deciding that a firearm is needed every day, every where because of the fear of attack is a decision made out of choice, not out of necessity. I don't quarrel against the decision to carry for self defense. I do quarrel with the notion that CC requires C1 regardless of the person's competence with his/her firearm of choice. Some crawling is necessary before we can walk proudly among the pistoleros of society.

Maybe my participation hasn't been productive. I know it hasn't been popular. I think it has at least caused conversation about carry mode choices, the reality of NDs, the need for competence, the responsibility and accountability of CC. If thats bad, shoot me.
Brother I think your participation in this thread has been very helpful. Even though you and I have different opinions on carrying a pistol. You have voiced your opinion and interacted with other opinions in a positive way. You sir are a good man
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Old 03-03-2013, 08:59   #509
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post

The people who come here new to handguns and/or new to concealed carry have some growing to do before they can safely strap on a chambered pistol and go forth among their families, friends and fellow citizens. The OP of this thread has a lot to learn or his initial post wouldn't have asked the question it did. Still, the consistent advice he received has been C1 without caveat, C1 or you might as well carry a hammer, C1 or you're insecure or scared of your gun. I think thats questionable advice for folks like the OP and others who come here for fundamental guidance.

I understand bad things can happen anywhere. I also understand that most of us will experience a lifetime free of deadly attack by exercising good judgement and situational awareness. Deciding that a firearm is needed every day, every where because of the fear of attack is a decision made out of choice, not out of necessity. I don't quarrel against the decision to carry for self defense. I do quarrel with the notion that CC requires C1 regardless of the person's competence with his/her firearm of choice. Some crawling is necessary before we can walk proudly among the pistoleros of society.

Maybe my participation hasn't been productive. I know it hasn't been popular. I think it has at least caused conversation about carry mode choices, the reality of NDs, the need for competence, the responsibility and accountability of CC. If thats bad, shoot me.
My personal opinion is that for all our talk about getting training the majority of new people will either start carrying now and get some training later or they will never bother with formal training. Some of course, are required by law to go through an abreviated gunhandling and lawful use of force class.

Best to deal with the situation as it is as opposed to how we would like it to be.

Therefore, telling untrained people with few weapon handling skills to carry C1 is probably not ideal. If they are not comfortable with C1 we need to look at their objections and their skills before we try to change their mind.

How many of the C1 advocates on here are willing to accept any responsibility for an AD if someone is swayed into doing something they are uncomfortable with because of their advice?

IF a weapon in C3 lacks in readiness when carried by these new folks then perhaps it is true that they should be carrying another weapon. However, the condescending and flippant attitude (it's a rock, it's a hammer) of some isn't helpful.

I dunno, but I'm not going to hyperventilate or anything.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy

P.S. This brings up the question of new folks carrying that haven't a clue about the legal use of force/deadly force, but that is for another thread.

P.P.S. At Photofeller - When I leave the house I have a Case XX Trapper in my pocket (I used to carry a smaller pocket knife but this was a gift and I really like it.) and a Surefire flashlight on my belt. I rarely use either of them but I find if I leave them at home I invariably need the one I don't have on me. It's just so easy and no bother at all to slip the 442 into a pocket...why not? I guess I'm just one of those people that hates not having their "stuff".
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Old 03-03-2013, 09:51   #510
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Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
I'd like to chime in on this for a moment. Several days ago, I watched a video with a firearms instructor who had fine credentials (I do not know of him as he is in Memphis) and has trained over 35,000 civilians. The video was a pick of 10 of the over 50 people he has trained who have had to use their training in their defense. While some were in questionable areas, others were in nice upscale places where one would never have thought of being attacked. THIS is prime meat for devious folks out to do bad things.

The point being is we don't choose the locations where we will be attacked.... the BG's do this for us. Now granted, there are places where the prudent person may wish to avoid. However, most of us go about our daily routines giving little thought of being attacked simply because we feel safe where we are and with what we are doing.

I live in an affluent area that has a good police presence and a lot of retail businesses catering to our wishes. And we do have periodic crimes that occur. Robberies, carjackings (i.e. kidnappings), malicious assaults... the usual. Affluence does attract evil people bent on doing evil things.

Still I respect the decisions of those who may choose to carry without a round in the chamber. Something I would never do, but to each his own.
That would be Tom Givens. He is based in Memphis, but is nationally known. He organized and hosted the Massad Ayoob course I took a few years ago.

Photofeller: I personally think your posts and incites have added a lot to this thread.

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Old 03-03-2013, 09:58   #511
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...In the end, everyone must decide for themselves. There are many factors that should be considered, among them is how often you will draw your weapon? Do you live and routinely travel in a place with a near zero crime rate? How often do you train with your weapon? Do you routinely have to take your pistol out of its holster and lock it in your car (such as entering a federal building) and do so by removing the gun, not the holster? And so many more questions/factors that must be considered...
Now, THAT I fully agree with.
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Old 03-03-2013, 10:03   #512
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
My formal training with firearms has only been in the US Army, a NRA course or two for handguns and a group class on concealed carry/SD. Informal experience comes from about 60 years of gun ownership, a fair amount of hunting, and firing range outings. I've had a concealed carry license for about 20 years.

What you view as "insecurities" in my behavior I consider to be manifestations of a very secure individual. I don't carry most of the time. When I am armed, it is usually with a Glock or Kahr in C3.

Your recommendation to get more training is good advice for most of us. What keeps me from getting it is I have no desire to become a "pistolero", a man of the gun. I've readily admitted that I'm not qualified to carry a Glock in C1. Carrying a gun for self defense is not a central part of my daily life. I suspect that many of us don't have the training, experience, maturity or focus needed to carry a deadly weapon chambered, only a trigger pull away from discharge.

My endorsement of C3 here is to bring a counter view to those who champion C1 as the 'size that fits all'. I strongly believe there are many among us who are closer to my skill level than those of you who can cite week-long training experiences with notable teachers at wonderful facilities.

The people who come here new to handguns and/or new to concealed carry have some growing to do before they can safely strap on a chambered pistol and go forth among their families, friends and fellow citizens. The OP of this thread has a lot to learn or his initial post wouldn't have asked the question it did. Still, the consistent advice he received has been C1 without caveat, C1 or you might as well carry a hammer, C1 or you're insecure or scared of your gun. I think thats questionable advice for folks like the OP and others who come here for fundamental guidance.

I understand bad things can happen anywhere. I also understand that most of us will experience a lifetime free of deadly attack by exercising good judgement and situational awareness. Deciding that a firearm is needed every day, every where because of the fear of attack is a decision made out of choice, not out of necessity. I don't quarrel against the decision to carry for self defense. I do quarrel with the notion that CC requires C1 regardless of the person's competence with his/her firearm of choice. Some crawling is necessary before we can walk proudly among the pistoleros of society.

Maybe my participation hasn't been productive. I know it hasn't been popular. I think it has at least caused conversation about carry mode choices, the reality of NDs, the need for competence, the responsibility and accountability of CC. If thats bad, shoot me.
I think folks like yourself have made this thread very useful! I also think this thread has probably reached theoretical saturation - no new ideas/arguments are being put forth. Plus, many folks posting do not take time to see how their points were already made and debated in this thread, many other folks post one-liners - all of which helps no one. But, whatever already exists in this thread is highly helpful to any thoughtful and open-minded new and experienced shooter. I think I'll be checking out of participating in the present discussion until new ideas/arguments emerge. It's been good times...
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Old 03-03-2013, 10:38   #513
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Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
That would be Tom Givens. He is based in Memphis, but is nationally known. He organized and hosted the Massad Ayoob course I took a few years ago.

Photofeller: I personally think your posts and incites have added a lot to this thread.

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I just checked the DVD jacket and that is indeed who the instructor is. I enjoyed his common sense and real world knowledge and approach to the subject. My guess is that he would be an excellent person to listen to in a seminar, lecture, or class setting.
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Old 03-03-2013, 11:03   #514
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Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
As you have no doubt seen, a number of people have stated that my pointing out the extra risk/opportunities created by routinely switching from C1 to C3 and back (which as Indicated in my post to photofeller includes holstering and unholstering the C1 pistol) increase the likelihood of an ND. Also, I did not magically add the concept of "routinely" switching between C1 and C3, that was mentioned by a number of people in this thread as to how they carry C3 when they believe the threat level is low, and C1 when it's higher (different people worded it different ways).
Your point about the added chance for a ND was well taken by me, and I believe I was the one who used the term "routinely" (more on this below).

Quote:
First and foremost, a person should carry in the manner they are comfortable with. If you are not comfortable carrying C1, then DON'T.
I believe most GT members agree with this viewpoint.

Quote:
I disagree with those that make the case that the .5 seconds could be life and death, and therefore that is the overriding factor in determining C1 vs. C3. (snip)

The way you carry can have a far greater impact on overall draw time than the .5 seconds added by racking your slide, so in and of itself you can't point to the time as the major factor for carrying C1.
Absolutely right, and I've given a lot of thought to where I position the weapon and ease of access when I am carrying it for this very reason.

Quote:
Those that argue that maintaining situational awareness will prevent you from ever having someone attack you from a few feet away are living in a dream world.
I totally agree.



Quote:
The fact is that an ND happens when there is a lapse in proper safety protocol, so from the standpoint of the "likelihood" of an ND, it boils down to how many times the gun is in a state where an ND could happen (drawing from holster while C1, returning to holster while C1, handling while C1 -- carrying at safe ready, racking, loading/unloading, etc.).

So, the when determining liklihood, it all depends on how YOU handle your weapon. If for instance every night you take it out of your holster and put it on your nightstand, and then re-holster it in the morning, then if it is C1, you have multiple opportunities for an ND. The same behavior with a C3 guns, assuming it is really unloaded, does not create the same opportunities. On the flip side, changing between C3 and C1 and back at various times during the day or week, creates opportunities for ND that do not exist if your C1 gun remains in its holster.
The last time I carried C1 was when the family traveled to the big city for our annual Christmas dinner with extended family. It just so happens on our way home --- still in big city --- a speeding car passed us and the passenger stuck his arm out the window and fired off two shots into the air. Was it a coincidence this happened to be in a relatively dangerous part of the city? Maybe, but statistics being what they are I doubt it.

Since then whenever I've carried its been C3, and I think a lot of that has to do with it being Wintertime when I stay around the house for the most part. However, I always follow protocol of checking my weapon for condition whenever it's been out of my sight, and when it's out of my sight it's in the safe. Every time I retrieve the weapon I assume it's C3 but I still drop the magazine, rack the slide, and visually inspect the chamber. If one who always carries C1 retrieves a pistol that's been out of sight following the same protocol as I do would result in far greater chance of ND because the weapon is assumed C1.

Quote:
In the end, everyone must decide for themselves. ...

It's a personal decision that each person has to make for themselves, after weighing all of the factors -- and there are many.
Agreed; and I'm glad this thread is a "sticky". There are many things that come into play when deciding to CCW, and in my mind safety is currently my primary concern although I fully agree with the need for readiness. But then, that all has to do with my individual circumstances.
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Old 03-03-2013, 13:03   #515
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
My formal training with firearms has only been in the US Army, a NRA course or two for handguns and a group class on concealed carry/SD. Informal experience comes from about 60 years of gun ownership, a fair amount of hunting, and firing range outings. I've had a concealed carry license for about 20 years.

What you view as "insecurities" in my behavior I consider to be manifestations of a very secure individual. I don't carry most of the time. When I am armed, it is usually with a Glock or Kahr in C3.

Your recommendation to get more training is good advice for most of us. What keeps me from getting it is I have no desire to become a "pistolero", a man of the gun. I've readily admitted that I'm not qualified to carry a Glock in C1. Carrying a gun for self defense is not a central part of my daily life. I suspect that many of us don't have the training, experience, maturity or focus needed to carry a deadly weapon chambered, only a trigger pull away from discharge.

My endorsement of C3 here is to bring a counter view to those who champion C1 as the 'size that fits all'. I strongly believe there are many among us who are closer to my skill level than those of you who can cite week-long training experiences with notable teachers at wonderful facilities.

The people who come here new to handguns and/or new to concealed carry have some growing to do before they can safely strap on a chambered pistol and go forth among their families, friends and fellow citizens. The OP of this thread has a lot to learn or his initial post wouldn't have asked the question it did. Still, the consistent advice he received has been C1 without caveat, C1 or you might as well carry a hammer, C1 or you're insecure or scared of your gun. I think thats questionable advice for folks like the OP and others who come here for fundamental guidance.

I understand bad things can happen anywhere. I also understand that most of us will experience a lifetime free of deadly attack by exercising good judgement and situational awareness. Deciding that a firearm is needed every day, every where because of the fear of attack is a decision made out of choice, not out of necessity. I don't quarrel against the decision to carry for self defense. I do quarrel with the notion that CC requires C1 regardless of the person's competence with his/her firearm of choice. Some crawling is necessary before we can walk proudly among the pistoleros of society.

Maybe my participation hasn't been productive. I know it hasn't been popular. I think it has at least caused conversation about carry mode choices, the reality of NDs, the need for competence, the responsibility and accountability of CC. If thats bad, shoot me.
It is in the end your choice to make. I believe all who carry a firearm should be competent enough and vigilant enough to carry with a round it the chamber. Should there be more strict standards to get a CCW permit? YES! I really had never thought that anyone would CC a firearm for personal defense with an empty chamber. Thank you for opening my eyes to this.
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Old 03-03-2013, 13:37   #516
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Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
Your point about the added chance for a ND was well taken by me, and I believe I was the one who used the term "routinely" (more on this below).



I believe most GT members agree with this viewpoint.



Absolutely right, and I've given a lot of thought to where I position the weapon and ease of access when I am carrying it for this very reason.



I totally agree.





The last time I carried C1 was when the family traveled to the big city for our annual Christmas dinner with extended family. It just so happens on our way home --- still in big city --- a speeding car passed us and the passenger stuck his arm out the window and fired off two shots into the air. Was it a coincidence this happened to be in a relatively dangerous part of the city? Maybe, but statistics being what they are I doubt it.

Since then whenever I've carried its been C3, and I think a lot of that has to do with it being Wintertime when I stay around the house for the most part. However, I always follow protocol of checking my weapon for condition whenever it's been out of my sight, and when it's out of my sight it's in the safe. Every time I retrieve the weapon I assume it's C3 but I still drop the magazine, rack the slide, and visually inspect the chamber. If one who always carries C1 retrieves a pistol that's been out of sight following the same protocol as I do would result in far greater chance of ND because the weapon is assumed C1.



Agreed; and I'm glad this thread is a "sticky". There are many things that come into play when deciding to CCW, and in my mind safety is currently my primary concern although I fully agree with the need for readiness. But then, that all has to do with my individual circumstances.

Yes, if you check the state of the C1 every time in that way, you are right, it's creating opportunities. Some guns have a chamber loaded indicator, but even those are going to require removing from the holster.




Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA View Post
I just checked the DVD jacket and that is indeed who the instructor is. I enjoyed his common sense and real world knowledge and approach to the subject. My guess is that he would be an excellent person to listen to in a seminar, lecture, or class setting.
Tom only did a small portion of the four day Ayoob course, but I saw enough to know I would enjoy his courses. I was scheduled for a three day Givens course late last summer, but something came up and I had to cancel. I'm going to try again this summer.




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Old 03-03-2013, 13:57   #517
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I believe all who carry a firearm should be competent enough and vigilant enough to carry with a round it the chamber. Should there be more strict standards to get a CCW permit? YES!
Excellent point. A competency test would probably cut me out, but I can live without CC.

If you're in favor of expanding the requirements to qualify for CC, lets also require that any person applying for a permit must clearly demonstrate that carrying a weapon is essential for protecting himself/herself from eminent danger of attack. Many (most?) of us wouldn't pass the 'need' test. Would you?

1911pro suggests there should be a competency test to get a CC license. Is that a good idea?

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Old 03-03-2013, 14:31   #518
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Excellent point. A competency test would probably cut me out, but I can live without CC.

If you're in favor of expanding the requirements to qualify for CC, lets also require that any person applying for a permit must clearly demonstrate that carrying a weapon is essential for protecting himself/herself from eminent danger of attack. Many (most?) of us would not pass the 'need' test. Would you?
Honestly if every good person would take it upon themselves to become competent it could be a " shall issue." I am against the government determining my need to protect myself. I am also torn because I do not want to be shot by some CCW guy(or girl) who cannot tell which end the bullets come out. My 'need' came with my birth. Can you really 'live' without CC? You sure would have better odds staying alive with it. To many people want to talk the talk and never learn to walk the walk.
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Old 03-03-2013, 14:41   #519
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A pistol without a round in the chamber is like a dull knife. Its worthless.

Spend more time with the pistol and get a quality holster. If your still not confident after that, carry something else.
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Old 03-03-2013, 15:17   #520
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Excellent point. A competency test would probably cut me out, but I can live without CC.

If you're in favor of expanding the requirements to qualify for CC, lets also require that any person applying for a permit must clearly demonstrate that carrying a weapon is essential for protecting himself/herself from eminent danger of attack. Many (most?) of us wouldn't pass the 'need' test. Would you?

1911pro suggests there should be a competency test to get a CC license. Is that a good idea?
I wouldn't support a needs test, because once you can demonstrate a need, it is often too late (assaulted, raped, dead, etc). On the other hand, while it is an unpopular notion, I do think that there should be far more training and proficiency testing done before a person is allowed to get a CCL.

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