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Old 02-28-2013, 15:42   #481
Arc Angel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
Harsh words, but worthy of thoughtful consideration.

I don't meet your gun handling standard, and many others here don't either, I dare say. Folks new to CC certainly aren't pistoleros, and, frankly, I have never aspired to be one. From this post I conclude that I should "get out of the kitchen" unless I am willing to become a "gunman". That will require some soul searching on my part.

I'm not disagreeing with your standard. Our expectations of one another should be higher than most other critical skill levels since we carry lethal weapons in our homes, vehicles, and many public places.

It's far better to wring these things out here than after the fact of an incident when its too late to redo anything.
They are, also, particularly harsh words whenever they’re taken in only partial context, too. Don’t think of what I’ve said as being written by, ‘some guy on the Internet’. Cyberspace is already abstract enough! Instead think of my replies on this subject as being written by someone who’s been accidentally shot twice. Both times by a relatively unskilled idiot who - by any ethical standard of administration - shouldn’t have been allowed to have a gun in his hands.

Furthermore I, either, could have been, or almost was shot on more occasions than I’m presently able to recall. Most recently by a teenage girl who was shooting a pistol on a Sunday afternoon with her family, and for the very first time in her life. Mommy and Daddy were thoughtful enough to provide her with safety glasses and hearing protectors; but, Daddy, somehow, forgot to tell her about, ‘Cooper’s Four Rules Of Firearm Safety’. So, guess who ended up looking down her muzzle the first time she hit the target and did an elated pirouette, ……… Me! (Finger still on the trigger, of course!)

Then, last year, there was the drunk who got out of his old, beat up, pickup truck holding a fully loaded Ruger Blackhawk 45 Long Colt in his hand. He put that revolver down on the bench with the muzzle pointing straight at me. The guy was clearly, ‘blotto’; and he had the most ridiculous, but curiously evil, look on his face! I remain certain that he, somehow, wanted me to be afraid. As GT’s Mitch Schrader once said to me, ‘I think you might have loved guns too well and for too long for your own good, Arc Angel.’ Nevertheless, these are some of the risks that all of us take around guns and the shooting sports.

In Pennsylvania, where I live, all you’ve got to do in order to carry a deadly firearm is go into the County Sheriff’s Office, fill out the paperwork, get your picture taken, and pay (something like) $35.00; and you’ve got a carry permit! To my mind that’s insane! When the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights were written there were fewer than three million people living in the Americas. Today, the social situation is exponentially different! (That’s 3 million by 10 squared!) Both the population AND the social situation have radically changed! Are you able to appreciate, ‘What’ would be going on out on America’s highways and byways if people were allowed to drive automobiles and tractors in the same way that many states allow them to use guns!

I presume by the fact that we’re, both, board members, here, that you and I shoot Glocks. Do you ever stop to wonder just how many thousands of product liability lawsuits Glock, GmbH has quietly settled over the years? How about the number of lawsuits Glock's, 'legal eagles' have won and, 'swept under the rug'? I have.

Do you, or any other board members, here, ever stop to appreciate that THE REST OF THE NON-GUNOWNING PUBLIC often considers gun owners like us to be archaic, socially maladjusted misanthropes! (They do! I've even got a few in my own extended family.) In order to get along with everybody else, gun owners like you and me have to be willing to hold ourselves to a higher social standard of personal behavior. Personal behavior that - AS ABSURD AS IT MIGHT SEEM TO CERTAIN PEOPLE AROUND HERE - precludes flagrant open carry by civilians. (Try getting THAT message across on GT!)

Beyond the colonial Constitution and the Bill Of Rights - even beyond everybody’s constitutionally guaranteed rights of: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, (Yeah, right!) owning and using modern firearms entails, or SHOULD entail, a high prerequisite measure of: (1) ethical personal behaviors, (2) DEMONSTRABLE handling and operational skills, as well as (3) an increasingly necessary personal awareness of the thoughts and opinions of others. We, all, presently live in a society where if someone has an accident with a gun on the West Coast, the impact of that accident is going to be felt, here, on the East Coast, too. (and visa versa)

I’m repeating myself; but I remain incredulous that someone can state in all seriousness that: Because a person is incompetent with one form of unchambered pistol carry, the most obvious solution to this operational dilemma is to, ‘amp the poor old guy up’ to chambered carry, instead! Am I the only other gunman on this board who sees how asinine that proposition is? There are necessary and viable personal performance standards for using guns the same as there are for cars. (It’s no different!) At least in the Western Hemisphere, in today’s highly surveilled, electronic, ‘fishbowl societies’ what each of us does with a gun is sure to reflect on all other gun owners.

None of us should allow ourselves to, ‘play into the hands’ of those self-serving and opportunistic politicos who (for whatever their nefarious secret agenda requires) strongly desire to turn, ‘self-defense’ into a dirty word and, as completely as possible, disarm America. We, American citizens and gun owners, owe each other better than that!

As far as I’m concerned, two or three hundred million law abiding American gun owners should NOT be taken to task, deprived of an important (and hard won) constitutional right, abridged in that right, or otherwise held accountable for the sick sociopathic behaviors of a handful of the most degenerate and perverse individuals ever to arise out of western society.

Do the evil deeds of people like: Lanza, Holmes, Loughner, and Cho negatively impact upon the rest of America’s gunmen? You bet they do! In fact I often wish that more Americans would appreciate that one of the goals these incredibly sick and twisted individuals set for themselves is TO PUNISH AS MANY OF THEIR FELLOW CITIZENS AS THEY POSSIBLY CAN! Unfortunately too many of our most powerful politicians, also, seem to agree with their perverse tactics.

As I said, ‘It ain’t about you; and it ain’t about me.’ It’s about the cumulative impact ALL of America’s gun owners and users have on each other. We MUST hold one another to higher standards of, both, behavior AND performance. Unchambered, C-3, civilian carry is one of those higher standards. So are state-sponsored self-defense and handgun training courses such as the safety program the states of Florida and Utah require their permit-holders to complete BEFORE any of their citizens are allowed to go armed while out and about in public.
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Old 02-28-2013, 15:53   #482
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If I had to carry my SP-101 "unchambered" ( I guess that means empty ), I'd rather have crowbar for self defense.
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Old 02-28-2013, 16:14   #483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arc Angel View Post
They are, also, particularly harsh words whenever they’re taken in only partial context, too. Don’t think of what I’ve said as being written by, ‘some guy on the Internet’. Cyberspace is already abstract enough! Instead think of my replies on this subject as being written by someone who’s been accidentally shot twice. Both times by a relatively unskilled idiot who - by any ethical standard of administration - shouldn’t have been allowed to have a gun in his hands.

Furthermore I, either, could have been, or almost was shot on more occasions than I’m presently able to recall. Most recently by a teenage girl who was shooting a pistol on a Sunday afternoon with her family, and for the very first time in her life. Mommy and Daddy were thoughtful enough to provide her with safety glasses and hearing protectors; but, Daddy, somehow, forgot to tell her about, ‘Cooper’s Four Rules Of Firearm Safety’. So, guess who ended up looking down her muzzle the first time she hit the target and did an elated pirouette, ……… Me! (Finger still on the trigger, of course!)

Then, last year, there was the drunk who got out of his old, beat up, pickup truck holding a fully loaded Ruger Blackhawk 45 Long Colt in his hand. He put that revolver down on the bench with the muzzle pointing straight at me. The guy was clearly, ‘blotto’; and he had the most ridiculous, but curiously evil, look on his face! I remain certain that he, somehow, wanted me to be afraid. As GT’s Mitch Schrader once said to me, ‘I think you might have loved guns too well and for too long for your own good, Arc Angel.’ Nevertheless, these are some of the risks that all of us take around guns and the shooting sports.

In Pennsylvania, where I live, all you’ve got to do in order to carry a deadly firearm is go into the County Sheriff’s Office, fill out the paperwork, get your picture taken, and pay (something like) $35.00; and you’ve got a carry permit! To my mind that’s insane! When the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights were written there were fewer than three million people living in the Americas. Today, the social situation is exponentially different! (That’s 3 million by 10 squared!) Both the population AND the social situation have radically changed! Are you able to appreciate, ‘What’ would be going on out on America’s highways and byways if people were allowed to drive automobiles and tractors in the same way that many states allow them to use guns!

I presume by the fact that we’re, both, board members, here, that you and I shoot Glocks. Do you ever stop to wonder just how many thousands of product liability lawsuits Glock, GmbH has quietly settled over the years? How about the number of lawsuits Glock's, 'legal eagles' have won and, 'swept under the rug'? I have.

Do you, or any other board members, here, ever stop to appreciate that THE REST OF THE NON-GUNOWNING PUBLIC often considers gun owners like us to be archaic, socially maladjusted misanthropes! (They do! I've even got a few in my own extended family.) In order to get along with everybody else, gun owners like you and me have to be willing to hold ourselves to a higher social standard of personal behavior. Personal behavior that - AS ABSURD AS IT MIGHT SEEM TO CERTAIN PEOPLE AROUND HERE - precludes flagrant open carry by civilians. (Try getting THAT message across on GT!)

Beyond the colonial Constitution and the Bill Of Rights - even beyond everybody’s constitutionally guaranteed rights of: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, (Yeah, right!) owning and using modern firearms entails, or SHOULD entail, a high prerequisite measure of: (1) ethical personal behaviors, (2) DEMONSTRABLE handling and operational skills, as well as (3) an increasingly necessary personal awareness of the thoughts and opinions of others. We, all, presently live in a society where if someone has an accident with a gun on the West Coast, the impact of that accident is going to be felt, here, on the East Coast, too. (and visa versa)

I’m repeating myself; but I remain incredulous that someone can state in all seriousness that: Because a person is incompetent with one form of unchambered pistol carry, the most obvious solution to this operational dilemma is to, ‘amp the poor old guy up’ to chambered carry, instead! Am I the only other gunman on this board who sees how asinine that proposition is? There are necessary and viable personal performance standards for using guns the same as there are for cars. (It’s no different!) At least in the Western Hemisphere, in today’s highly surveilled, electronic, ‘fishbowl societies’ what each of us does with a gun is sure to reflect on all other gun owners.

None of us should allow ourselves to, ‘play into the hands’ of those self-serving and opportunistic politicos who (for whatever their nefarious secret agenda requires) strongly desire to turn, ‘self-defense’ into a dirty word and, as completely as possible, disarm America. We, American citizens and gun owners, owe each other better than that!

As far as I’m concerned, two or three hundred million law abiding American gun owners should NOT be taken to task, deprived of an important (and hard won) constitutional right, abridged in that right, or otherwise held accountable for the sick sociopathic behaviors of a handful of the most degenerate and perverse individuals ever to arise out of western society.

Do the evil deeds of people like: Lanza, Holmes, Loughner, and Cho negatively impact upon the rest of America’s gunmen? You bet they do! In fact I often wish that more Americans would appreciate that one of the goals these incredibly sick and twisted individuals set for themselves is TO PUNISH AS MANY OF THEIR FELLOW CITIZENS AS THEY POSSIBLY CAN! Unfortunately too many of our most powerful politicians, also, seem to agree with their perverse tactics.

As I said, ‘It ain’t about you; and it ain’t about me.’ It’s about the cumulative impact ALL of America’s gun owners and users have on each other. We MUST hold one another to higher standards of, both, behavior AND performance. Unchambered, C-3, civilian carry is one of those higher standards. So are state-sponsored self-defense and handgun training courses such as the safety program the states of Florida and Utah require their permit-holders to complete BEFORE any of their citizens are allowed to go armed while out and about in public.
Let me say again, I'm not disagreeing with your standard. I am admitting that I don't have the skills you say are necessary for carrying in public. Thats part of my reason for opting to use C3.
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Old 02-28-2013, 16:55   #484
Arc Angel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
Let me say again, I'm not disagreeing with your standard. I am admitting that I don't have the skills you say are necessary for carrying in public. Thats part of my reason for opting to use C3.
How is it that you fail to see that we - America's gun owners and users - ARE BEING PUSHED TO ADOPT THESE STANDARDS: (1) Directly by the federal politicians, (2) directly by the state politicians, (3) indirectly by the world bankers for whom they work, and (4) the social pressures exerted by ever expanding and grossly overcrowded western society? Either we start playing a, 'better game' or, my friend, it's going to be over sooner rather than later for all of us; and THAT is the straightforward unvarnished truth!

We're not stamp collectors; we don't race model cars; and this ain't about paintball. Either you have the necessary skill sets, and are able to demonstrate competence while handling a deadly firearm, or you don't. As far as this old gunman is concerned those who don't - or can't - shouldn't. I feel this way about automobile driving; and I feel this way about guns, too.

However high you want to, 'set the bar' for yourself is your business. I'm NOT talking about excellence; I'm talking about personal safety and competence, instead. I trust we understand each other better, now.
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Old 02-28-2013, 17:33   #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arc Angel View Post
They are, also, particularly harsh words whenever they’re taken in only partial context, too. Don’t think of what I’ve said as being written by, ‘some guy on the Internet’. Cyberspace is already abstract enough! Instead think of my replies on this subject as being written by someone who’s been accidentally shot twice. Both times by a relatively unskilled idiot who - by any ethical standard of administration - shouldn’t have been allowed to have a gun in his hands.

Furthermore I, either, could have been, or almost was shot on more occasions than I’m presently able to recall. Most recently by a teenage girl who was shooting a pistol on a Sunday afternoon with her family, and for the very first time in her life. Mommy and Daddy were thoughtful enough to provide her with safety glasses and hearing protectors; but, Daddy, somehow, forgot to tell her about, ‘Cooper’s Four Rules Of Firearm Safety’. So, guess who ended up looking down her muzzle the first time she hit the target and did an elated pirouette, ……… Me! (Finger still on the trigger, of course!)

Then, last year, there was the drunk who got out of his old, beat up, pickup truck holding a fully loaded Ruger Blackhawk 45 Long Colt in his hand. He put that revolver down on the bench with the muzzle pointing straight at me. The guy was clearly, ‘blotto’; and he had the most ridiculous, but curiously evil, look on his face! I remain certain that he, somehow, wanted me to be afraid. As GT’s Mitch Schrader once said to me, ‘I think you might have loved guns too well and for too long for your own good, Arc Angel.’ Nevertheless, these are some of the risks that all of us take around guns and the shooting sports.

In Pennsylvania, where I live, all you’ve got to do in order to carry a deadly firearm is go into the County Sheriff’s Office, fill out the paperwork, get your picture taken, and pay (something like) $35.00; and you’ve got a carry permit! To my mind that’s insane! When the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights were written there were fewer than three million people living in the Americas. Today, the social situation is exponentially different! (That’s 3 million by 10 squared!) Both the population AND the social situation have radically changed! Are you able to appreciate, ‘What’ would be going on out on America’s highways and byways if people were allowed to drive automobiles and tractors in the same way that many states allow them to use guns!

I presume by the fact that we’re, both, board members, here, that you and I shoot Glocks. Do you ever stop to wonder just how many thousands of product liability lawsuits Glock, GmbH has quietly settled over the years? How about the number of lawsuits Glock's, 'legal eagles' have won and, 'swept under the rug'? I have.

Do you, or any other board members, here, ever stop to appreciate that THE REST OF THE NON-GUNOWNING PUBLIC often considers gun owners like us to be archaic, socially maladjusted misanthropes! (They do! I've even got a few in my own extended family.) In order to get along with everybody else, gun owners like you and me have to be willing to hold ourselves to a higher social standard of personal behavior. Personal behavior that - AS ABSURD AS IT MIGHT SEEM TO CERTAIN PEOPLE AROUND HERE - precludes flagrant open carry by civilians. (Try getting THAT message across on GT!)

Beyond the colonial Constitution and the Bill Of Rights - even beyond everybody’s constitutionally guaranteed rights of: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, (Yeah, right!) owning and using modern firearms entails, or SHOULD entail, a high prerequisite measure of: (1) ethical personal behaviors, (2) DEMONSTRABLE handling and operational skills, as well as (3) an increasingly necessary personal awareness of the thoughts and opinions of others. We, all, presently live in a society where if someone has an accident with a gun on the West Coast, the impact of that accident is going to be felt, here, on the East Coast, too. (and visa versa)

I’m repeating myself; but I remain incredulous that someone can state in all seriousness that: Because a person is incompetent with one form of unchambered pistol carry, the most obvious solution to this operational dilemma is to, ‘amp the poor old guy up’ to chambered carry, instead! Am I the only other gunman on this board who sees how asinine that proposition is? There are necessary and viable personal performance standards for using guns the same as there are for cars. (It’s no different!) At least in the Western Hemisphere, in today’s highly surveilled, electronic, ‘fishbowl societies’ what each of us does with a gun is sure to reflect on all other gun owners.

None of us should allow ourselves to, ‘play into the hands’ of those self-serving and opportunistic politicos who (for whatever their nefarious secret agenda requires) strongly desire to turn, ‘self-defense’ into a dirty word and, as completely as possible, disarm America. We, American citizens and gun owners, owe each other better than that!

As far as I’m concerned, two or three hundred million law abiding American gun owners should NOT be taken to task, deprived of an important (and hard won) constitutional right, abridged in that right, or otherwise held accountable for the sick sociopathic behaviors of a handful of the most degenerate and perverse individuals ever to arise out of western society.

Do the evil deeds of people like: Lanza, Holmes, Loughner, and Cho negatively impact upon the rest of America’s gunmen? You bet they do! In fact I often wish that more Americans would appreciate that one of the goals these incredibly sick and twisted individuals set for themselves is TO PUNISH AS MANY OF THEIR FELLOW CITIZENS AS THEY POSSIBLY CAN! Unfortunately too many of our most powerful politicians, also, seem to agree with their perverse tactics.

As I said, ‘It ain’t about you; and it ain’t about me.’ It’s about the cumulative impact ALL of America’s gun owners and users have on each other. We MUST hold one another to higher standards of, both, behavior AND performance. Unchambered, C-3, civilian carry is one of those higher standards. So are state-sponsored self-defense and handgun training courses such as the safety program the states of Florida and Utah require their permit-holders to complete BEFORE any of their citizens are allowed to go armed while out and about in public.
These are wise words coming from a man of intelligence, common sense and valuable life experience - although they will earn you few popularity points on this forum. I hope new shooters (and perhaps more importantly, experienced shooters) are listening. Although I disagree with some minor points, your bigger argument is right on.
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Last edited by vandros; 02-28-2013 at 17:53..
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Old 03-01-2013, 00:05   #486
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Originally Posted by Arc Angel View Post
tnedator, let's be blatantly honest with one another:

SIMPLY OWNING A GUN CREATES A POSSIBILITY FOR AN AD/ND EVENT TO OCCUR.

Hence the validity of the rather vulgar aphorism, 'Crap happens!' I've already said as much above: Owning a gun ain't no different than owning a car. If a person can't safely and effectively operate a gun then he shouldn't handle any gun at all.

Neither do I buy the, 'frequent gun handling' rationale. I've shot a lot of competitive pistol matches; and, recently, I took part in a very fast moving, 'Zombie Shootout'. Sometimes you're in the dark; sometimes there's, 'target confusion'; sometimes you're walking forwards, sideways, or backwards. All the time you're reloading either full, or partially full magazines.

THAT'S PISTOLCRAFT, MY FRIEND!

Anyone who, 'Can't stand the heat should get out of the kitchen.' I've attended many a shooting match where the speed of the event concerned me; but, I got 'a say, the guys were always good. This is what it takes to skillfully handle a combat pistol. If someone needs to worry, or is klutzy enough to realize - on any level of individual comprehension - that he shouldn't frequently handle, load, or unload a pistol, also,

SHOULDN'T BE HANDLING OR CARRYING A PISTOL TO BEGIN WITH!

We're supposed to be gunmen and pistoleros. Loading, unloading, racking, firing, clearing stoppages, and making safe should, all, be things that we do by rote, almost subconsciously. If someone can't do these things, literally with his eyes closed then - DAMN IT - I don't want that person around either me or mine with a pistol of any kind or in any condition on his belt.

(You might say that this attitude, or expectation, on my part is unrealistic. After all, we don't live in a perfect world; however, as far as I'm concerned this attitude, this expectation, on my part is the primary justification for the necessity of civilian C-3 carry!)

I wasn't going to say it; but, are you able to appreciate just how dumb it is to assert that: Because an individual has arthritis in his hands, he's better off keeping his pistol in C-1! This unhappy circumstance describes EXACTLY the sort of civilian gun owner I DO NOT WANT standing next to me (or on my right-hand side) on a public firing line!
I haven't said a thing about arthritis, so I don't know what you are blathering on about in a post you seem to have directed at me.

As to the rest, just seems like more of the same, you tooting your own horn.

As to loading/unloading being some a dangerous act where an ND was bound to happen, it's just a matter of when. I never said or implied any such thing. Maybe you should take a break from talking about how awesome a pistolero you are, and go back and re-read my posts on this subject.


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Old 03-01-2013, 07:02   #487
Arc Angel
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I haven't said a thing about arthritis, so I don't know what you are blathering on about in a post you seem to have directed at me. As to the rest, just seems like more of the same, you tooting your own horn.

As to loading/unloading being some a dangerous act where an ND was bound to happen, it's just a matter of when. I never said or implied any such thing. Maybe you should take a break from talking about how awesome a pistolero you are, and go back and re-read my posts on this subject.
Hey, I didn't talk to you that way! READ THE THREAD; then you'll know what I'm talking about and be able to keep up.

I got 'a tell you: For someone who is obviously familiar with the material in the NRA Firearms Safety Course, you've got a fresh mouth! I did NOT misquote you. I merely pointed out certain fallacies in your thinking.

Now, you're rationalizing and doing your best to avoid addressing the real issue(s) and have chosen to, 'attack the man' rather than face the unpleasant fact that your thinking on this subject, 'might' be in error. (See, didn't I say that nicely!)

I treated you respectfully; you should have shown me the same courtesy. You need to learn to react less, and think BEFORE you speak. From now on I'm going to treat you like just another bigoted internet personality.


PS: By the way, the, 'arthritis remarks' weren't about you; and the statements I made are academic - NOT personal. The comments about: loading and unloading being dangerous activities for an EXPERIENCED AND COMPETENT gunman, though, were directed at remarks made by you. I thought you were mistaken, yesterday; and I still think that you're wrong, today.

If you can't reach the pedals, or see over the steering wheel then you shouldn't be driving a car. Period!

Last edited by Arc Angel; 03-01-2013 at 07:10..
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Old 03-02-2013, 09:59   #488
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Hey, I didn't talk to you that way! READ THE THREAD; then you'll know what I'm talking about and be able to keep up.

I got 'a tell you: For someone who is obviously familiar with the material in the NRA Firearms Safety Course, you've got a fresh mouth! I did NOT misquote you. I merely pointed out certain fallacies in your thinking.

Now, you're rationalizing and doing your best to avoid addressing the real issue(s) and have chosen to, 'attack the man' rather than face the unpleasant fact that your thinking on this subject, 'might' be in error. (See, didn't I say that nicely!)

I treated you respectfully; you should have shown me the same courtesy. You need to learn to react less, and think BEFORE you speak. From now on I'm going to treat you like just another bigoted internet personality.


PS: By the way, the, 'arthritis remarks' weren't about you; and the statements I made are academic - NOT personal. The comments about: loading and unloading being dangerous activities for an EXPERIENCED AND COMPETENT gunman, though, were directed at remarks made by you. I thought you were mistaken, yesterday; and I still think that you're wrong, today.

If you can't reach the pedals, or see over the steering wheel then you shouldn't be driving a car. Period!
First, I was on my mobile phone and short on time, so I didn't feel like trying to scratch out a long reply, repeating what I had already said, just because you either failed to comprehend what I had posted or were intentionally twisting it (most likely the latter).

Second, you started a long post with "Tnedator, let's be blatantly obvious with one another:" and then proceeded to craft your reply in such a way to either twist or completely fabricate things I had posted in this thread, however you were "clearly" addressing and disagreeing with my positions and statements in this thread. I suggest you use the search function, to search for my posts in this thread and read them, so that you will be less likely to "accidentally" mischaracterize my positions in the future -- any good pistolero has the forumcraft necessary to search within a thread...

Third, I am not your friend. You speak to others with condescension. Quite honestly, I'm old enough and otherwise secure enough in my life to be able to choose to be "friends" with people that treat others with respect and dignity, in person or on the Net.

Fourth, it looks like after your last "typical Arc" post, you realized that it wasn't actually me that had brought up arthritis as it relates to C1/C3, and have gone back and edited this post to say the arthritis comment wasn't aimed at me, but made in general.

I commend you on realizing your mistake after you spouted off, but come on Arc, man up and don't play little "oops, I ____ up, so let me edit my post and put P.S. that was meant in general, not to you" games, when you clearly addressed me at the beginning of the post and everything else in the post was directed at my comments/positions in this thread, including your arthritis crack, even though you were mistaken about me being the one that brought up arthritis.

It's good forumcraft to actually know what the other person did or did not post when responding to them, especially if you are going to take a tone of condescension in your reply.

Fifth, your statements about my position on loading/unloading are disingenuous at best. You know very well I did not say the act of loading/unloading was dangerous in and of itself.

What I stated, and it is an irrefutable fact, was in regards to people worried about carrying C1, because they feel the odds of having an ND are far greater than being attacked, or simply because the odds of having an ND carrying C1 are far greater than carrying C3. My response to their position is "fine, everyone has to make a choice as to what is best for them." However, when they then add (as quite a few have) that they then routinely switch from C1 to C3 when they feel it is more likely that they might need to defend themselves, such as going into certain stores, a bad part of town, etc., and then when they leave that area, switching back, then there is no question that they are creating a habit that is more likely to lead to an ND.

The following is a simple and irrefutable fact. When comparing a gun in kept in C1, kept in a holster, except when taken out at the range or for cleaning to a gun kept normally in C3, but routinely switched between C1 and C3 by loading and unloading, based on possible threat of the area you are about to travel in, which requires at times loading and unloading in a car while trying to be inconspicuous. There is ZERO doubt that in these scenarios, that the person switching from C1 to C3 and back again on a regular basis is more likely to have an ND than the person that keeps their gun holstered in C1 all the time.

As an experienced pistolero, you know doubt know that the two most likely times to have an AD/ND are when loading/unloading and when dry firing.

Dry firing AD/ND's are pretty self explanatory. They are the result of a person "assuming" the gun is empty when it isn't, which is more likely to happen with a person that "always assumes" their chamber is empty and therefore they only have to drop the mag. Granted, if they are following correct safety and gun handling protocols, they would visually and physically check the chamber, but again when they "know" the chamber is empty, because they "normally" carry C3, they are more likely to skip that step. That said, if proper steps are taken, nobody should have a dry fire AD/ND, even though all of us pistoleros know it happens far too often.

As it relates to loading/unloading, it should also be pretty self explanatory, but apparently the obvious isn't always obvious, even to trained pistoleros. I'll admit, I haven't been in many police stations, so I don't have a lot of experience in their procedures, beyond what I see on TV. However, I do have an experience I would like to share. I went to the MAG40 class about three years ago (Massad Ayoob, but I'm sure a pistolero like yourself knew that, but others may not). The course was hosted by Tom Givens of Rangemasters in Memphis. We had the training at the Memphis firearms training unit (FTU).

I won't go through all the details of the course, but I will point out something related to their indoor range, as well as their outdoor range rules. On the outdoor range, they made it VERY clear, that we could unload a weapon, and reload it at the end of the day, to put carry ammo in it, if we completed the act, racking the slide, while pointing at the berm/backstop of the range.

With their indoor range, which we didn't use during the course, they had a large red (maybe orange) bullet trap in place with signs instructing everyone to load/unload their weapons while pointing the muzzle inside the bullet trap. When we had occasion to need to load our weapons with carry ammo, before leaving each night, they instructed us to go to the indoor range and use the trap, just as the Memphis PD officers do when loading/unloading their weapons at the range.

For you, who by your own oft repeated words, are an experienced pistolero of the highest skill both in terms of competition and offensive/defensive use, to claim that a person is NO MORE LIKELY to have an AD/ND from loading/unloading a weapon, than keeping that weapon in a C1 condition in their holster and not removing it --- well, it's just beyond a ridiculous claim. A claim like that can only be made from someone who really isn't an expert pistolero, or someone who doesn't care about facts or honesty, or providing all the information for those that aren't "master pistoleros" to make an informed choice, but instead can only be made by someone trying to win an internet debate.

Son, our goals in this thread might be different, and that may be the root of the problem. I'm not interested in trying to convince even a single person how great a pistolero I am, or how much more experience or knowledge I have, or even how great my ability to be nauseatingly verbose in my forum replies is. I'm not even trying to convince people to change their carry method. Instead, I'm simply trying to offer food for thought to those that might not have fully thought out all the issues related to C1/C3, and more specifically the potential self defense hazards when carrying C3, and from a safety standpoint, since those carrying C3 cite the reason as being "uncomfortable" carrying C1, because there is a greater chance of an ND.

To these individuals, it's important they are making an informed decision by pointing out that if they routinely switch between C1 and C3 that they are in fact creating a FAR greater likelihood of ever having an AD/ND, as compared to leaving a gun holstered in C1, except when having to clean or use it at the range.

My position that switching between C1 and C3 routinely, including when out of the house, in the car, etc., as the perceived threat level increases or decreases, being more likely to result in an AD/ND as compared to leaving a weapon C1 and holstered, is an irrefutable fact. It's the very reason that police departments have bullet traps for loading/unloading, but don't have steel lined rooms to walk into before strapping on their duty belt or holster, that already contains a "holstered" weapon in the C1 state.

You've yet to refute with any facts that loading/unloading is more dangerous than keeping a weapon C1 and holstered. Instead, you have bragged about your immense skill, and said that anyone and everyone should be able to load/unload a weapon, while blind folded on a roller coaster, while making out with the prom queen, or some other self aggrandizing statements along those lines that does nothing to help people reading this thread make an informed decision.

If you really are the great master pistolero you claim to be, why not take the position of offering good faith, honest pros and cons in a discussion like this, so that people that aren't master pistoleros like yourself, can make informed decisions and TRULY balance the risks of various carry options, which includes understanding the issues related with choosing to routinely switch between those states of carry.

Please excuse any typos, but I'm already late for something and have to dart out of the house, so I don't have time to properly review and correct this post for typos.
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Old 03-02-2013, 11:24   #489
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Twenty pages for a question that should never have to be asked. Get some quality training. Maybe a VSM class or something similar to start out. I started out with the 1911 carried the only way it should be"cocked and locked." As others have said it all comes down your finger safety and always look your gun into a good quality holster.
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Old 03-02-2013, 12:44   #490
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First, I was on my mobile phone and short on time, so I didn't feel like trying to scratch out a long reply, repeating what I had already said, just because you either failed to comprehend what I had posted or were intentionally twisting it (most likely the latter).

Second, you started a long post with "Tnedator, let's be blatantly obvious with one another:" and then proceeded to craft your reply in such a way to either twist or completely fabricate things I had posted in this thread, however you were "clearly" addressing and disagreeing with my positions and statements in this thread. I suggest you use the search function, to search for my posts in this thread and read them, so that you will be less likely to "accidentally" mischaracterize my positions in the future -- any good pistolero has the forumcraft necessary to search within a thread...

Third, I am not your friend. You speak to others with condescension. Quite honestly, I'm old enough and otherwise secure enough in my life to be able to choose to be "friends" with people that treat others with respect and dignity, in person or on the Net.

Fourth, it looks like after your last "typical Arc" post, you realized that it wasn't actually me that had brought up arthritis as it relates to C1/C3, and have gone back and edited this post to say the arthritis comment wasn't aimed at me, but made in general.

I commend you on realizing your mistake after you spouted off, but come on Arc, man up and don't play little "oops, I ____ up, so let me edit my post and put P.S. that was meant in general, not to you" games, when you clearly addressed me at the beginning of the post and everything else in the post was directed at my comments/positions in this thread, including your arthritis crack, even though you were mistaken about me being the one that brought up arthritis.

It's good forumcraft to actually know what the other person did or did not post when responding to them, especially if you are going to take a tone of condescension in your reply.

Fifth, your statements about my position on loading/unloading are disingenuous at best. You know very well I did not say the act of loading/unloading was dangerous in and of itself.

What I stated, and it is an irrefutable fact, was in regards to people worried about carrying C1, because they feel the odds of having an ND are far greater than being attacked, or simply because the odds of having an ND carrying C1 are far greater than carrying C3. My response to their position is "fine, everyone has to make a choice as to what is best for them." However, when they then add (as quite a few have) that they then routinely switch from C1 to C3 when they feel it is more likely that they might need to defend themselves, such as going into certain stores, a bad part of town, etc., and then when they leave that area, switching back, then there is no question that they are creating a habit that is more likely to lead to an ND.

The following is a simple and irrefutable fact. When comparing a gun in kept in C1, kept in a holster, except when taken out at the range or for cleaning to a gun kept normally in C3, but routinely switched between C1 and C3 by loading and unloading, based on possible threat of the area you are about to travel in, which requires at times loading and unloading in a car while trying to be inconspicuous. There is ZERO doubt that in these scenarios, that the person switching from C1 to C3 and back again on a regular basis is more likely to have an ND than the person that keeps their gun holstered in C1 all the time.

As an experienced pistolero, you know doubt know that the two most likely times to have an AD/ND are when loading/unloading and when dry firing.

Dry firing AD/ND's are pretty self explanatory. They are the result of a person "assuming" the gun is empty when it isn't, which is more likely to happen with a person that "always assumes" their chamber is empty and therefore they only have to drop the mag. Granted, if they are following correct safety and gun handling protocols, they would visually and physically check the chamber, but again when they "know" the chamber is empty, because they "normally" carry C3, they are more likely to skip that step. That said, if proper steps are taken, nobody should have a dry fire AD/ND, even though all of us pistoleros know it happens far too often.

As it relates to loading/unloading, it should also be pretty self explanatory, but apparently the obvious isn't always obvious, even to trained pistoleros. I'll admit, I haven't been in many police stations, so I don't have a lot of experience in their procedures, beyond what I see on TV. However, I do have an experience I would like to share. I went to the MAG40 class about three years ago (Massad Ayoob, but I'm sure a pistolero like yourself knew that, but others may not). The course was hosted by Tom Givens of Rangemasters in Memphis. We had the training at the Memphis firearms training unit (FTU).

I won't go through all the details of the course, but I will point out something related to their indoor range, as well as their outdoor range rules. On the outdoor range, they made it VERY clear, that we could unload a weapon, and reload it at the end of the day, to put carry ammo in it, if we completed the act, racking the slide, while pointing at the berm/backstop of the range.

With their indoor range, which we didn't use during the course, they had a large red (maybe orange) bullet trap in place with signs instructing everyone to load/unload their weapons while pointing the muzzle inside the bullet trap. When we had occasion to need to load our weapons with carry ammo, before leaving each night, they instructed us to go to the indoor range and use the trap, just as the Memphis PD officers do when loading/unloading their weapons at the range.

For you, who by your own oft repeated words, are an experienced pistolero of the highest skill both in terms of competition and offensive/defensive use, to claim that a person is NO MORE LIKELY to have an AD/ND from loading/unloading a weapon, than keeping that weapon in a C1 condition in their holster and not removing it --- well, it's just beyond a ridiculous claim. A claim like that can only be made from someone who really isn't an expert pistolero, or someone who doesn't care about facts or honesty, or providing all the information for those that aren't "master pistoleros" to make an informed choice, but instead can only be made by someone trying to win an internet debate.

Son, our goals in this thread might be different, and that may be the root of the problem. I'm not interested in trying to convince even a single person how great a pistolero I am, or how much more experience or knowledge I have, or even how great my ability to be nauseatingly verbose in my forum replies is. I'm not even trying to convince people to change their carry method. Instead, I'm simply trying to offer food for thought to those that might not have fully thought out all the issues related to C1/C3, and more specifically the potential self defense hazards when carrying C3, and from a safety standpoint, since those carrying C3 cite the reason as being "uncomfortable" carrying C1, because there is a greater chance of an ND.

To these individuals, it's important they are making an informed decision by pointing out that if they routinely switch between C1 and C3 that they are in fact creating a FAR greater likelihood of ever having an AD/ND, as compared to leaving a gun holstered in C1, except when having to clean or use it at the range.

My position that switching between C1 and C3 routinely, including when out of the house, in the car, etc., as the perceived threat level increases or decreases, being more likely to result in an AD/ND as compared to leaving a weapon C1 and holstered, is an irrefutable fact. It's the very reason that police departments have bullet traps for loading/unloading, but don't have steel lined rooms to walk into before strapping on their duty belt or holster, that already contains a "holstered" weapon in the C1 state.

You've yet to refute with any facts that loading/unloading is more dangerous than keeping a weapon C1 and holstered. Instead, you have bragged about your immense skill, and said that anyone and everyone should be able to load/unload a weapon, while blind folded on a roller coaster, while making out with the prom queen, or some other self aggrandizing statements along those lines that does nothing to help people reading this thread make an informed decision.

If you really are the great master pistolero you claim to be, why not take the position of offering good faith, honest pros and cons in a discussion like this, so that people that aren't master pistoleros like yourself, can make informed decisions and TRULY balance the risks of various carry options, which includes understanding the issues related with choosing to routinely switch between those states of carry.

Please excuse any typos, but I'm already late for something and have to dart out of the house, so I don't have time to properly review and correct this post for typos.
I had decided that I would not post again to this thread because it seemed to be headed downhill. I thought the constructive discussion had been displaced by personal remarks.

While your post is clearly directed at AA in the spirit of setting the record straight, you make some valid, important points along the way.

Your caution about changing from C3 to C1 and back to C3 as risk conditions change is food for thought for me. While it isn't a frequent practice, I have done it, outside of my vehicle, at Interstate rest parks, for example; I just consider these parks to be high-risk areas where a surprise attack very well could happen. Because I do it so rarely, the steps to load and unload include extreme caution. This practice is probably not wise.

I do agree that loading, unloading, dry firing and any administrative handling are acts that often result in NDs.

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Old 03-02-2013, 13:51   #491
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Twenty pages for a question that should never have to be asked. Get some quality training. Maybe a VSM class or something similar to start out. I started out with the 1911 carried the only way it should be"cocked and locked." As others have said it all comes down your finger safety and always look your gun into a good quality holster.
The carry practices of 1911 folks are of interest in this discussion because I don't recall anyone who totes a 1911 advocating C-0 instead of cocked and locked. C-0 would be much the same as a Glock in C-1, as I see it.

With a 1911 in C-0 (chambered, cocked but not locked) your mind-controlled finger safety, the grip safety and a good holster would seem to be enough. Why do you need more than a disciplined trigger finger and a quality holster? Your 1911 won't fire unless you depress the grip safety and pull the trigger.

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Old 03-02-2013, 14:56   #492
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The carry practices of 1911 folks are of interest in this discussion because I don't recall anyone who totes a 1911 advocating C-0 instead of cocked and locked. C-0 would be much the same as a Glock in C-1, as I see it.

With a 1911 in C-0 (chambered, cocked but not locked) your mind-controlled finger safety, the grip safety and a good holster would seem to be enough. Why do you need more than a disciplined trigger finger and a quality holster? Your 1911 won't fire unless you depress the grip safety and pull the trigger.
You ever shoot a 1911 with around a 4.5lb or less trigger pull? Shorter trigger pull, it was designed with a safety, but most have no drop safety. The glock has a drop safety and a safety on the trigger. If YOU look your gun into the holster everytime rock on. I think the point is that the OP even asked the question. If he or anyone else is asking this question then they need some quality training with a good instructor.
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Old 03-02-2013, 15:30   #493
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I had decided that I would not post again to this thread because it seemed to be headed downhill. I thought the constructive discussion had been displaced by personal remarks.

While your post is clearly directed at AA in the spirit of setting the record straight, you make some valid, important points along the way.

Your caution about changing from C3 to C1 and back to C3 as risk conditions change is food for thought for me. While it isn't a frequent practice, I have done it, outside of my vehicle, at Interstate rest parks, for example; I just consider these parks to be high-risk areas where a surprise attack very well could happen. Because I do it so rarely, the steps to load and unload include extreme caution. This practice is probably not wise.

I do agree that loading, unloading, dry firing and any administrative handling are acts that often result in NDs.
I wouldn't even say it is unwise. We all have to load/unload weapons at times. My point is more that for those that say that avoiding an accidental discharge is their primary motivation for not carrying C1, then they should consider which of these two procedures is most likely to result in an AD/ND:

1. Having a DAO pistol with a round in the chamber (C1) in a quality holster that covers the trigger, and leaving that pistol in the holster.

2. Having a DAO pistol with no round in the chamber, and then in that parking lot (or wherever it might be) unholstering your pistol, racking the slide and resholstering (possibly also dropping and replacing mag to top it off) to change to C1 fore the more threatening surroundings and then when you feel the threat level is lower, unholstering a pisol with a round in the chamber (C1), dropping the mag, racking the slide of your loaded weapon to empty the chamber, reseating the mag and then reholstering.

I think you would agree that there is no reasonable scenario laid out where procedure one is more likely to result in a negligent discharge than procedure two. The more often you perform procedure two, especially in situations where you might be trying to be obscure about your actions, the greater a chance of ND.

On the other hand, no matter how many times you follow procedure one, there is no increased risk of ND. It's only when you unholster the C1 weapon (for whatever reason) that an ND becomes possible.

So, if you follow that through. Let's for argument sake say you have your carry gun C1 in a holster and every night you take the holster off and put it on the nightstand (or in a safe) and every morning you put it back on. If you have to go in a post office, you take the holster off (I know some take the gun out of the holster) and lock it up, and when you get back to the car, you put the holster back on. On the first weekend of every month, if you haven't been to the range, you unholster and clear that carry weapon to clean and/or lube it. In this hypothetical, you've had two opportunities for an AD/ND (once unholstering and unloading, the other reloading, reholstering).

Now, take procedure two, where you change from C1 to C3 when your threat level increases. Let's just say that only happens every other week, or twice a month. Since your weapon should be C3 when you do your monthly cleaning, that leaves you with four opportunities for an AD/ND during the course of the month (twice racking the slide and reholstering, twice unholstering a C1 weapon and clearing the chamber).

So, in this scenario, the C1/C3 procedure provides twice as many chances for an ND as the C1 procedure that includes a monthly lube. If you only clean and lube every two months, then your chances for an ND with the C1/C3 option is four times is likely (8 chances to two).

Now, that doesn't take into account how often you go to the range, if you use your carry gun and stuff like that.

On the flip side, if you are a person carrying C1 that routinely unholsters (as opposed to removing the holster) a C1 pistol such as regularly going into a building where he can't carry, or every night putting his loaded weapon on the nightstand out of his holster, then those numbers would flip in the other direction.

So, in that sense, I guess I would conclude by saying there are a GREAT many factors based on how you choose to carry your weapon that determine the number of opportunities to have an AD/ND and the condition, C1 vs. C3 is not in and of itself the primary factor. It's only that condition, when evaluated from the stand point of how many times you unholster and reholster the C1 weapon and how many times you switch from C1 to C3 (or completely unload) and how many times you go to C1 (whether from C3 or from an empty gun).

My issue, or maybe concern, with people on both sides of this argument is the absolutism and not taking the time to think through things.

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The carry practices of 1911 folks are of interest in this discussion because I don't recall anyone who totes a 1911 advocating C-0 instead of cocked and locked. C-0 would be much the same as a Glock in C-1, as I see it.

With a 1911 in C-0 (chambered, cocked but not locked) your mind-controlled finger safety, the grip safety and a good holster would seem to be enough. Why do you need more than a disciplined trigger finger and a quality holster? Your 1911 won't fire unless you depress the grip safety and pull the trigger.
While I'm not a 1911 guy, I've shot enough of them at the range to throw out a couple comments.

The first thing people would say is "it's designed with a safety, so you should use it." Now, that doesn't address your point, which is if it's good enough with a DAO to just keep your finger off the trigger, than why not with a 1911.

My first thought would be that the triggers on 1911's that I've shot, are much closer to a cocked double action revolver than to say a Glock trigger. Not only do they often have a lighter pull weight than Glocks, there is much less takeup, again, closer to a DA revolver (but not quite as hair triggerish). This results in there being less room for error with the 1911, when it comes to catching the side of the holster, a piece of cloth, etc.

The glocks & M&P's also have their hinged triggers, which "might" stop an AD if a piece of clothing got in the trigger guard when holstering, but you would have to be lucky to only catch the upper half of the triggers.

Many of the 1911 holsters are designed based on the idea that there is a manual safety, so therefore they don't cover all or part of the trigger, where in a DAO you would never leave part of the trigger exposed. Obviously, if you were going cocked and unlocked, then you would choose a holster that was more along the lines of what you would use with a DAO.
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Old 03-02-2013, 16:17   #494
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The carry practices of 1911 folks are of interest in this discussion because I don't recall anyone who totes a 1911 advocating C-0 instead of cocked and locked. C-0 would be much the same as a Glock in C-1, as I see it.

With a 1911 in C-0 (chambered, cocked but not locked) your mind-controlled finger safety, the grip safety and a good holster would seem to be enough. Why do you need more than a disciplined trigger finger and a quality holster? Your 1911 won't fire unless you depress the grip safety and pull the trigger.
When a 1911 is cocked, it is fully cocked and ready to release the hammer. When a Glock is cocked, it is only approximately 75% cocked, and when you pull the trigger the striker finishes the cocking action and then releases. There are pictures and even videos of this on the Internet. So C-0 in a 1911 is not the same a c-1 in a Glock.
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Old 03-02-2013, 16:22   #495
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When a 1911 is cocked, it is fully cocked and ready to release the hammer. When a Glock is cocked, it is only approximately 75% cocked, and when you pull the trigger the striker finishes the cocking action and then releases. There are pictures and even videos of this on the Internet. So C-0 in a 1911 is not the same a c-1 in a Glock.
Correct, but it's also true that C1 in a 1911 is not the same as C1 in a Glock or other DAO.
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Old 03-02-2013, 16:40   #496
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I guess I would conclude by saying there are a GREAT many factors based on how you choose to carry your weapon that determine the number of opportunities to have an AD/ND and the condition, C1 vs. C3 is not in and of itself the primary factor. It's only that condition, when evaluated from the stand point of how many times you unholster and reholster the C1 weapon and how many times you switch from C1 to C3 (or completely unload) and how many times you go to C1 (whether from C3 or from an empty gun).

My issue, or maybe concern, with people on both sides of this argument is the absolutism and not taking the time to think through things.

While I'm not a 1911 guy, I've shot enough of them at the range to throw out a couple comments.

The first thing people would say is "it's designed with a safety, so you should use it." Now, that doesn't address your point, which is if it's good enough with a DAO to just keep your finger off the trigger, than why not with a 1911.

My first thought would be that the triggers on 1911's that I've shot, are much closer to a cocked double action revolver than to say a Glock trigger. Not only do they often have a lighter pull weight than Glocks, there is much less takeup, again, closer to a DA revolver (but not quite as hair triggerish). This results in there being less room for error with the 1911, when it comes to catching the side of the holster, a piece of cloth, etc.

The glocks & M&P's also have their hinged triggers, which "might" stop an AD if a piece of clothing got in the trigger guard when holstering, but you would have to be lucky to only catch the upper half of the triggers.

Many of the 1911 holsters are designed based on the idea that there is a manual safety, so therefore they don't cover all or part of the trigger, where in a DAO you would never leave part of the trigger exposed. Obviously, if you were going cocked and unlocked, then you would choose a holster that was more along the lines of what you would use with a DAO.
Your points about the C1/C3 flip-flop are well taken, as are points about how often, and how, we administratively handle our guns. There are a number of factors that determine exposure to NDs. I've read about several NDs in public restrooms, for example, when the gun is re-positioned to sit on the throne...strange but true.

Your most compelling point to me is that decisions about CC mode should not be made on the basis of a few simple arguments by absolutists on either side of C1 vs. C3. It is a serious decision process with multiple branches to think through in order to reach a reasoned conclusion.

Those who post one liners declaring that only their method has merit are in fact doing a disservice to folks like the OP of this thread. There has to be meat on the bones for advice to have meaning. The frequently used brick and hammer analogies just don't git 'er done.

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Old 03-02-2013, 17:42   #497
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Correct, but it's also true that C1 in a 1911 is not the same as C1 in a Glock or other DAO.
True.
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Old 03-02-2013, 18:05   #498
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Your points about the C1 vs. C3 flip-flop are well taken, as are points about how often and how we administratively handle our guns. There are a number of factors that determine exposure to NDs. I've read about several NDs in public restrooms, for example, when the gun is re-positioned to sit on the throne.

Your most compelling point to me is that decisions about CC mode should not be made on the basis of a few simple arguments by absolutists on either side of C1 vs. C3. It is a serious decision process with multiple branches to think through in order to reach a reasoned conclusion.

Those who post one liners declaring that only their method has merit (absolutists) are in fact doing a disservice to folks like the OP of this thread. There has to be meat on the bones for advice to have meaning. The frequently used brick and hammer analogies just don't git 'er done.
I may have missed something in your earlier posts. Do you have any formal training other than what was required for your CCW permit? I am just wondering as to how you see merit to your method of carry. Honestly if someone attacks you they are not going to wait for you to rack the slide. Ask any professional firearms instructor who makes their living training civilian, military and or police if they think you should carry without a round in the chamber. I have taken classes from both Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn and can tell you neither would recommend this method of carry. This is not to say that there are not people who maybe just should not carry a firearm. There are people out there who should not be allowed to drive a car. You may not be one of these people, but your views would probably change if you would be willing to put the time, money and effort into a few training classes and then practice often what you learn. What does disservice to the OP is when someone with no experience tries to justify their own insecurities with such an opinion. We have a whole government full of elected officials already doing this. For god sake get some real training before giving out advice. No one is doing you any favors by supporting your view.

Last edited by 1911pro; 03-02-2013 at 21:39.. Reason: spelling
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Old 03-02-2013, 18:45   #499
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Originally Posted by oldman11 View Post
When a 1911 is cocked, it is fully cocked and ready to release the hammer. When a Glock is cocked, it is only approximately 75% cocked, and when you pull the trigger the striker finishes the cocking action and then releases. There are pictures and even videos of this on the Internet. So C-0 in a 1911 is not the same a c-1 in a Glock.
In a Glock it's been documented that if the striker leg slips off the sear there is enough energy stored to fire a round.

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Old 03-02-2013, 19:22   #500
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In a Glock it's been documented that if the striker leg slips off the sear there is enough energy stored to fire a round.

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Show me the documentation. Glock doesn't seem to know about it. Also, that is an awful big if. It's not something I worry about. But if you do, then don't carry a Glock.
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Last edited by oldman11; 03-02-2013 at 19:27.. Reason: Info
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