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Old 02-28-2013, 01:38   #461
PhotoFeller
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Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
Then, I take it, you don't carry concealed, since you don't worry about one in a million risks. Correct?

By the way, can you provide some stats on the chance of being a victim of a violent crime in the US compared to the risk of ND if carrying C1?

I find it interesting how many people almost treat it as a fore gone conclusion that if you carry C1, that it's just a matter of time before you have an ND or that you are much more likely to have one.

Can you even point to any statistics, or even anecdotal evidence, that states that people carrying C1 are more likely to experience an ND while handling firearms than people that carry C3 or don't carry concealed at all, for that matter?
I don't carry much/most of the time because the risk of attack, given my life style, in my opinion, is near zero. I described my environment and my conservative behavior in earlier posts.

The gated community I live in now and the surrounding town, other places I lived for 62 years, the world I experience through reading newspapers, knowledge of family and friends living in other states, and other information sources, lead me to believe the deadly attacks you fear so intently are extremely few and far between, and most that do happen could be avoided by staying clear of places fertile for attack. I have no statistics to compare the incidence of deadly attacks versus the incidence of NDs among folks who carry C1, nor do I live in a vacuum; I have a pretty good understanding of criminal behavior that occurs around me.

In my view, it is intuitively obvious that carrying C1 is more likely to produce NDs than carrying C3. I can't imagine you would suggest otherwise. It isn't certain that everyone who carries with a round chambered will experience a ND just as carrying C3 doesn't guarantee against one.

I have stated repeatedly that the probability of being attacked in a way that requires C1 for effective defense is less likely, in my opinion, than the probability of experiencing a ND. I can't prove this belief with empirical evidence any more than you can prove I am wrong. I have never suggested I can provide statistics to support my opinion. There is ample evidence, however, that NDs do occur with some frequency.

May I suggest that you round up statistics to prove that what I have said is wrong, or even misleading, and we'll go from there.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-28-2013 at 20:39..
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Old 02-28-2013, 05:17   #462
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All the talk about C1 vs. C3 is very interesting.

Allow me to advance another reason for C1, that may be somewhere in this nineteen page thread, but I haven't seen it, and I'm not going to go through all nineteen pages to find out.

If it has been addressed, my apologies, but in the interests of time, here goes.

One of my family members is in his 70s, and has very painful arthritis, which is especially manifest in his hands.

Some time ago, we went to the range, and shot my Ruger P-90, 45 ACP, DA/SA, no safety.

He shot it well. I showed him how to load the magazines with bullets, how to put the mag into the gun, how to rack the slide and chamber a round, how to change mags, how to decock the hammer, how to be safe with the gun, and so on.

After all this, when getting home, a decision had to be made as to how the gun would be stored. There are no children anywhere. So, how to store the gun... totally unloaded, or with a loaded mag inserted but no round chambered, or with a round chambered and the decocker lowered. It was his choice to make.

Any idea what he chose?

He decided that the gun would be kept loaded, with a round in the chamber, and the hammer lowered. Why? Because he couldn't count on his painful, arthritic hands being able to rack the slide and chamber a round. He could pull the heavy DA trigger with out a serious problem, but racking the slide was really difficult.

So that's how the gun is kept... locked and loaded, ready to be put into action should an emergency arise.
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Old 02-28-2013, 06:26   #463
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Originally Posted by Smooth_squeeze View Post
All the talk about C1 vs. C3 is very interesting.

Allow me to advance another reason for C1, that may be somewhere in this nineteen page thread, but I haven't seen it, and I'm not going to go through all nineteen pages to find out.

If it has been addressed, my apologies, but in the interests of time, here goes.

One of my family members is in his 70s, and has very painful arthritis, which is especially manifest in his hands.

Some time ago, we went to the range, and shot my Ruger P-90, 45 ACP, DA/SA, no safety.

He shot it well. I showed him how to load the magazines with bullets, how to put the mag into the gun, how to rack the slide and chamber a round, how to change mags, how to decock the hammer, how to be safe with the gun, and so on.

After all this, when getting home, a decision had to be made as to how the gun would be stored. There are no children anywhere. So, how to store the gun... totally unloaded, or with a loaded mag inserted but no round chambered, or with a round chambered and the decocker lowered. It was his choice to make.

Any idea what he chose?

He decided that the gun would be kept loaded, with a round in the chamber, and the hammer lowered. Why? Because he couldn't count on his painful, arthritic hands being able to rack the slide and chamber a round. He could pull the heavy DA trigger with out a serious problem, but racking the slide was really difficult.

So that's how the gun is kept... locked and loaded, ready to be put into action should an emergency arise.
Last November I helped a neighbor, who is also a good friend, buy his first centerfire pistol. He chose a gen4 Glock 17 and a good part of his reasoning was what you wrote here. I left him try a number of my pistols and we attended a large gun show together so he could handle and feel a lot of different guns as well as visiting gun shops. He has the same problems you spoke of: racking slides and loading magazines can and are a major consideration with his conditions. And he is a big man with large hands.

People like this are not only hampered by weak hands but in the event of an extreme encounter, fumbling is going to be a major factor as well because the lack the manual dexterity and precision needed in such elevated situations. This limits their choices AND their gun's condition levels.

You offered a good post here.
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:04   #464
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In my view, it is intuitively obvious that carrying C1 is more likely to produce NDs than carrying C3. I can't imagine you would suggest otherwise. It isn't certain that everyone who carries with a round chambered will experience a ND just as carrying C3 doesn't guarantee against one.

I have stated repeatedly that the probability of being attacked in a way that requires C1 for effective defense is less likely, in my opinion, than the probability of experiencing a ND. I can't prove this belief with empirical evidence any more than you can prove I am wrong. I have never suggested I can provide statistics to support my opinion. There is ample evidence, it seems, that NDs do occur.

May I suggest that you round up statistics to prove that what I have said is wrong, or even misleading, and we'll go from there.
In my view the chances of an ND is much higher by people that have the "peace of mind" of having an unloaded weapon (also said as are able to "assume" it's empty), and combine it with routinely loading it/unloading it.

Since we know that ND's don't happen on their own, but primarily occur instead when dry firing, loading/unloading and holstering a loaded weapon.

So, those that take the position that as they travel into a bad area they should rack a round and be in a ready state are taking two actions (racking the slide and holstering a loaded weapon) that create an opportunity for an ND that does not exist when a person has a gun in the holster at C1 and leaves it that way. The person that chooses to switch back and forth between C1 and C3, then creates another chance for ND when they then unload and reholster.
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:55   #465
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IF someone's arthritis is so severe that he cannot quickly and easily rack a semiautomatic slide then, ....... that person should not attempt to either carry, or shoot a handgun. (Probably shouldn't attempt to drive a car, either.) When you're hands don't work, they don't work. Face reality and live up to the situation.

I've got incipient, but not too bad, arthritis in both of my hands; not enough, though, to stop me from skillfully handling a pistol, YET. Sure, I worry about this; and that is, 'Why' I continue to hold onto a choice selection of revolvers. (Although I'm, probably, going to sell the last of my 44 Magnums.) If the day ever comes when I known in my heart that I've become incompetent with a semiautomatic pistol then I'll do the sensible thing:

Instead of endangering my devoted wife with one or more C-1 pistols in the house, I'll do the Christian thing and put the handguns away. I've known several older people who didn't have the God-given sense to know when to stay out from behind the wheel; and, to an individual, they all ended up in serious automobile accidents.

Attempting to justify C-1 carry because a person is either old, or infirm is both irresponsible and foolish. Now, if someone had recommended switching to, either, an AR or an AK rifle for home-defense THAT I might consider (marginally) reasonable - Not ideal, but, 'marginally reasonable'. I'd much rather have an aged and infirm elderly person tuck a rifle stock under his arm and wield an AR/AK rifle, 'from the hip' than I would want to see some old soul keep a C-1 pistol around the house.

You have to think about a lot of other things besides (what appears to be) an overwhelming desire to be ready for some unexpected - and highly unlikely - instantaneous ambush. Forget about any children, or grandchildren, for the moment. What about home repairmen? What about medical personnel who may need to enter the home? What about your silly, completely unsavvy relatives? What about the, 'Meals-on-Wheels' delivery person? What are any of these people going to do if they should unexpectedly come across your, 'red hot' C-1 pistol?

I've already had two doctors say to me, 'Is that thing loaded?' AND both men were gun owners! One even carries when he works nights at the hospital. (In case you don't know it, after the sun goes down, local hospital emergency rooms are, 'dirt magnets' for every drug addict in town; and, because these addicts often show up with several of their friends, one of the most dangerous places you can go after dark is to your local hospital's emergency room! I've already had bad experiences in these places, too.)

Years ago I, 'went down' unexpectedly on the street. When the ambulance nurse realized that I was carrying she threw a fit and began screaming, over and over again, 'He's got a gun in my ambulance!' 'He's got a gun in my ambulance!' At first she tried to disarm me; but, I was able to persuade her to leave the pistol alone and have hospital security, there, to meet the ambulance when it arrived. She did; and, afterward, everything worked out well. (The man in charge of hospital security - a retired detective - offered to buy my Walther!)

Using advanced age or arthritis as a socially acceptable excuse for either daily C-1 carry, or instantaneous home-defense is a cheap shot. The kind of expedient rationale that, both, a clever man or a particularly honest one wouldn't stoop to. In my (I already know!) rather unpopular personal opinion, one of the most important personal self-improvement goals everyone should set for himself in life is,

THE DEVELOPMENT OF A PERSONAL WILLINGNESS TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE THINGS THAT YOU DO, AS WELL AS THE CONSEQUENCES (BOTH EXPECTED, AND UNEXPECTED) OF YOUR PERSONAL DECISIONS AND BEHAVIORS.

Anyone who insists upon C-1 carry should have a much better reason for doing so than, 'I need to be ready for an instantaneous CQB ambush!' There are MANY OTHER WAYS to be ready to engage at close quarters than just carrying in C-1. Think of your family! Think of your friends! Think of everyone else who might, unexpectedly, come into contact with you! Then, weigh these considerations AGAINST YOUR REAL NEED to expose, both, yourself and other people to a chambered round.

(In other words: Grow up, weigh the probabilities, consider the consequences, and be well prepared to accept responsibility for, both, your personal behaviors AND decisions. Consequences - expected or unexpected - are still consequences! Bullets are very unforgiving! Once you set one off, you can't change your mind and call it back. 'It ain't just all about you, and what you want.')

Last edited by Arc Angel; 02-28-2013 at 16:15..
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:57   #466
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Originally Posted by Smooth_squeeze View Post
One of my family members is in his 70s, and has very painful arthritis, which is especially manifest in his hands.

There are no children anywhere. So, how to store the gun... totally unloaded, or with a loaded mag inserted but no round chambered, or with a round chambered and the decocker lowered. It was his choice to make.

He decided that the gun would be kept loaded, with a round in the chamber, and the hammer lowered. Why? Because he couldn't count on his painful, arthritic hands being able to rack the slide and chamber a round. He could pull the heavy DA trigger with out a serious problem, but racking the slide was really difficult.

So that's how the gun is kept... locked and loaded, ready to be put into action should an emergency arise.
Your friend's reasoning sounds valid to me. I know how limiting arthritis can be. If he needs a ready weapon for legitimate reasons and can safely handle the gun with his condition, C1 for home defense may be warranted.

The bottom line in this discussion for me is not which philosophy "wins" because one scored more points than the other. Your friend needed C1 for physical reasons, someone else needs it because his neighborhood has become dangerous. Others genuinely believe they are in a perilous situation because of relationship issues or various other threats. My hope is that people will truthfully evaluate their situation (risk of attack, training, competence with their weapon, mental acuity, physical ability, etc.) to make the carry mode decision. Fully understanding the responsibility and accountability of concealed carry is probably as important as any factor.

Our debate arguments shouldn't unduly influence someone's independent judgement. All we can hope to do is highlight areas that need to be considered in evaluating the options. There is no absolute right or wrong. One way works for me, but you may choose another path.

I'm not equivocating my belief that C3 is the safer mode of carry. I just know that many folks are persuaded to at least consider carrying with a round in the chamber.

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Old 02-28-2013, 08:02   #467
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tnedator, let's be blatantly honest with one another:

SIMPLY OWNING A GUN CREATES A POSSIBILITY FOR AN AD/ND EVENT TO OCCUR.

Hence the validity of the rather vulgar aphorism, 'Crap happens!' I've already said as much above: Owning a gun ain't no different than owning a car. If a person can't safely and effectively operate a gun then he shouldn't handle any gun at all.

Neither do I buy the, 'frequent gun handling' rationale. I've shot a lot of competitive pistol matches; and, recently, I took part in a very fast moving, 'Zombie Shootout'. Sometimes you're in the dark; sometimes there's, 'target confusion'; sometimes you're walking forwards, sideways, or backwards. All the time you're reloading either full, or partially full magazines.

THAT'S PISTOLCRAFT, MY FRIEND!

Anyone who, 'Can't stand the heat should get out of the kitchen.' I've attended many a shooting match where the speed of the event concerned me; but, I got 'a say, the guys were always good. This is what it takes to skillfully handle a combat pistol. If someone needs to worry, or is klutzy enough to realize - on any level of individual comprehension - that he shouldn't frequently handle, load, or unload a pistol, also,

SHOULDN'T BE HANDLING OR CARRYING A PISTOL TO BEGIN WITH!

We're supposed to be gunmen and pistoleros. Loading, unloading, racking, firing, clearing stoppages, and making safe should, all, be things that we do by rote, almost subconsciously. If someone can't do these things, literally with his eyes closed then - DAMN IT - I don't want that person around either me or mine with a pistol of any kind or in any condition on his belt.

(You might say that this attitude, or expectation, on my part is unrealistic. After all, we don't live in a perfect world; however, as far as I'm concerned this attitude, this expectation, on my part is the primary justification for the necessity of civilian C-3 carry!)

I wasn't going to say it; but, are you able to appreciate just how dumb it is to assert that: Because an individual has arthritis in his hands, he's better off keeping his pistol in C-1! This unhappy circumstance describes EXACTLY the sort of civilian gun owner I DO NOT WANT standing next to me (or on my right-hand side) on a public firing line!

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Old 02-28-2013, 08:11   #468
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Ok, let me understand this, you go C1 on the bedside when there is a threat present? So, is this after an intruder has broken into your house, but before going into your bedroom?

Ok, that was a bit facetious, but you just made my point, which is you never really know when a threat is present, certainly not at your bedside. Now, if you are going to make it more blanket, such as in a hotel room equates to "threat present" than that is conceding that you never really know when a threat will be present, but are arbitrarily choosing when to go "cocked and unlocked" with a Glock.

I just don't see how those that argue the biggest reason for not carrying C1 is AD/ND, also argue that they should routinely and unnecessarily do action most likely to cause an AD/ND, which is load/unload their weapon.
I agree that routinely loading/unloading gun is not the best idea. If you have to routinely switch between c1 and c3, perhaps you should be using c1 all the time, as I said in one of the previous posts.

You seem to either ignore or misunderstand the point I'm trying to make: Different levels of threat call for different levels of response.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:10   #469
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Your friend's reasoning sounds valid to me. I know how limiting arthritis can be. If he needs a ready weapon for legitimate reasons and can safely handle the gun with his condition, C1 for home defense may be warranted.

The bottom line in this discussion for me is not which philosophy "wins" because one scored more points than the other. Your friend needed C1 for physical reasons, someone else needs it because his neighborhood has become dangerous. Others genuinely believe they are in a perilous situation because of relationship issues or various other threats. My hope is that people will truthfully evaluate their situation (risk of attack, training, competence with their weapon, mental acuity, physical ability, etc.) to make the carry mode decision. Fully understanding the responsibility and accountability of concealed carry is probably as important as any factor.

Our debate positions can't take the place of someone's judgement in such an important matter. All we can hope to do is highlight areas that need to be considered in evaluating the options. There is no absolute right or wrong. One way works for me, but you may choose another path for, hopefully, valid reasons.

I'm not equivocating my belief that C3 is the safer mode of carry. I just know that many folks are persuaded to at least consider carrying with a round in the chamber.
That's quite interesting; thank you for it.

Safer in C3? Perhaps.

Personally, I feel safest in C1, ready to go. Nothing to get in the way of defending myself, in the direst of circumstances.

I've been trained that way, and will go with it. IMHO, there's no comparison in terms of being ready. And if it comes down to defending my life with a handgun, or a rifle, or a shotgun, or a knife, or any other tool that can be pressed into emergency service, may God help me...
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:17   #470
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IF someone's arthritis is so severe that he cannot quickly and easily rack a semiautomatic slide then, ....... that person should not attempt to either carry, or shoot a handgun. (Probably shouldn't attempt to drive a car, either.) When you're hands don't work, they don't work. Face reality and live up to the situation.
I'm glad you aren't the enforcer of those who choose to defend themselves with whatever legal means are available to them.

BTW, some slides are tougher to rack than others. I'm sure you know that. And some are plenty tough enough for someone whose strength is normal.

As for my family member's arthritis being "severe"... well, it isn't, and could they rack the slide in an emergency? I hope so. But why make it more difficult for them?

Please do not attempt to place them in a psychologically impossible situation, or perhaps try to make it seem like I'm not responsible. I don't know that you intended to convey that meaning, but I sure did get that impression, loud and clear. The last thing we need are nannies shutting down someone's God given right to self defense.

Also, your response seemed a bit over the top to me, and somewhat emotional, to boot. I hope my perceptions in this regard are mistaken.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:49   #471
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I'm glad you aren't the enforcer of those who choose to defend themselves with whatever legal means are available to them.

BTW, some slides are tougher to rack than others. I'm sure you know that. And some are plenty tough enough for someone whose strength is normal.

As for my family member's arthritis being "severe"... well, it isn't, and could they rack the slide in an emergency? I hope so. But why make it more difficult for them?

Please do not attempt to place them in a psychologically impossible situation, or perhaps try to make it seem like I'm not responsible. I don't know that you intended to convey that meaning, but I sure did get that impression, loud and clear. The last thing we need are nannies shutting down someone's God given right to self defense.

Also, your response seemed a bit over the top to me, and somewhat emotional, to boot. I hope my perceptions in this regard are mistaken.
Sounds to me like your family member would be better served by a revolver. I know they aren't cool and you don't see them in the movies much but damn, we are talking about being able to perform the manual of arms.

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Old 02-28-2013, 10:49   #472
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tnedator, let's be blatantly honest with one another:

SIMPLY OWNING A GUN CREATES A POSSIBILITY FOR AN AD/ND EVENT TO OCCUR.

Anyone who, 'Can't stand the heat should get out of the kitchen. If someone needs to worry, or is klutzy enough to realize - on any level of individual comprehension - that he shouldn't frequently handle, load, or unload a pistol, also,
SHOULDN'T BE HANDLING OR CARRYING A PISTOL TO BEGIN WITH!

We're supposed to be gunmen and pistoleros. Loading, unloading, racking, firing, clearing stoppages, and making safe should, all, be things that we do by rote, almost subconsciously. If someone can't do these things, literally with his eyes closed then - DAMN IT - I don't want that person around either me or mine with a pistol of any kind or in any condition on his belt.
Harsh words, but worth considering.

I don't meet your gun handling standard, and many others here don't either, I dare say. Folks new to CC certainly aren't pistoleros, and, frankly, I have never aspired to be one. From this post I conclude that I should "get out of the kitchen" unless I am willing to become a "gunman". That will require some soul searching on my part.

I'm not disagreeing with your standard. Our expectations of one another should be higher than most other critical skill levels since we carry lethal weapons in our homes, vehicles, and many public places.

It's far better to wring these things out here than after the fact of an incident when its too late to redo anything.

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Old 02-28-2013, 10:58   #473
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Sounds to me like your family member would be better served by a revolver. I know they aren't cool and you don't see them in the movies much but damn, we are talking about being able to perform the manual of arms.

Regards,
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Actually, I had thought a Ruger 44 Magnum would be the way to go, with that honkin' big front sight and terrifying muzzle blast and all, but no, he wants a simple 45 ACP. What can I do? He took a look at that big 'ole 230 grain hollow point and compared it to a 9mm hollow point, and said "bigger is better... I like..." LOL I suppose intuitively he thinks that if only the military can own guns in that caliber in some country overseas, then that's what he wants. He likes the big bang...

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Old 02-28-2013, 11:38   #474
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Actually, I had thought a Ruger 44 Magnum would be the way to go, with that honkin' big front sight and terrifying muzzle blast and all, but no, he wants a simple 45 ACP. What can I do? He took a look at that big 'ole 230 grain hollow point and compared it to a 9mm hollow point, and said "bigger is better... I like..." LOL I suppose intuitively he thinks that if only the military can own guns in that caliber in some country overseas, then that's what he wants. He likes the big bang...
.44 Mag loaded with .44 Special?

S&W makes some .45 acp revolvers as well.

But I guess in the final analysis it's his decision. It's just too bad you couldn't guide him into making a good one.

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Old 02-28-2013, 12:14   #475
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.44 Mag loaded with .44 Special?

S&W makes some .45 acp revolvers as well.

But I guess in the final analysis it's his decision. It's just too bad you couldn't guide him into making a good one.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
It was his choice. He has a very strong will. And I am not second guessing him. I think he made the right choice, a good choice, one that will serve him well. If others don't agree, that's fine. And by the way, IMHO, the 45 ACP in an autoloader is alright too, for him. Revolvers have their issues, too, as I'm sure you are aware...
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:40   #476
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Thanks for the quick replies guys. Im confident enough with myself handling and holstering the weapon to not be concerned with an accidental discharge. My CHL instructor mentioned the safety issue thing and said "I'd be scared to carry that thing chambered" so I thought it was a big deal with Glocks. Guess not. Glad to hear it's not and I'll carry it ready to go.
Your CHL instructor probably doesn't have any real life experience with any handguns (especially Glocks). Being honest, most instructors don't have that experience.
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Old 02-28-2013, 13:00   #477
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To me, it makes no sense to carry without a round chambered. I have a Sig 9mm with de-cocker, and feel perfectly fine carrying it, knowing that my "safety" is the long , double action trigger pull. Also have SP101, which is always full and ready for double action duty. I could wish that the Glock had a decocker, but it doesn't , so I'll just have to get used to carrying it with a round in the chamber, when I carry it. It's very pleasant to carry, so it'll be my "winter" gun , with the Sig 9mm as a 3 season gun. I'm pretty confident the .45 G36 can shoot thru Carharts and still do some damage.
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Old 02-28-2013, 14:38   #478
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Originally Posted by brentb636 View Post
To me, it makes no sense to carry without a round chambered. I have a Sig 9mm with de-cocker, and feel perfectly fine carrying it, knowing that my "safety" is the long , double action trigger pull. Also have SP101, which is always full and ready for double action duty. I could wish that the Glock had a decocker, but it doesn't , so I'll just have to get used to carrying it with a round in the chamber, when I carry it. It's very pleasant to carry, so it'll be my "winter" gun , with the Sig 9mm as a 3 season gun. I'm pretty confident the .45 G36 can shoot thru Carharts and still do some damage.
You seem to be a thoughtful guy, so let me ask why you believe it makes sense to carry with one in the chamber. Does the incidence of serious attacks in your community worry you? Or, have you simply decided that if you're going to carry, you might as well go C1? I'm beginning to believe that the latter reason is the primary driver for C1. In other words, its more of a "why not" decision than it is a "I really need to" call.

Do you think Glock requires more careful handling than your Sig?
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Old 02-28-2013, 15:30   #479
brentb636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
You seem to be a thoughtful guy, so let me ask why you believe it makes sense to carry with one in the chamber. Does the incidence of serious attacks in your community worry you? Or, have you simply decided that if you're going to carry, you might as well go C1? I'm beginning to believe that the latter reason is the primary driver for C1. In other words, its more of a "why not" decision than it is a "I really need to" call.

Do you think Glock requires more careful handling than your Sig?
If I'm going to carry, essentially I plan on being able to get off a shot in 3 seconds. That's the standard that the local sheriff deputies use. If they get in a defense situation, they figure they have 3 seconds to decide, draw, and fire. With that standard, a chambered round is a MUST HAVE. All of my other guns , besides the Glock can be fired Double Action, with a long trigger pull ( not counting the .22). Only the Glock has a relatively light pressure trigger with a round in the chamber. That gives me reason to think that carrying the Glock requires more thought than carrying my sig P-6 for example, with a round in the chamber. I love the decockers on my Sig-Sauers, and feel they are quite safe with a chambered round and in DA mode.
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Old 02-28-2013, 15:40   #480
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I love how some folks on this thread believe themselves to be the be-all, end-all when it comes to the carrying of a defensive arm. Legends in their own mind, perhaps?

My advice to those who are here wanting to learn from others is to ignore the pretentiousness affecting some of these posts and enjoy that which you can.
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