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Old 02-27-2013, 08:31   #441
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
Thirteen days of basic firearms training and semi-annual requal doesn't sound pooly trained to me. Then there is the FATS simulator, FOF training, and various tactical training courses.

The "poorly trained b.s." is getting really old.

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Thanks, happy. I should have included information about their training to provide a more complete picture.

My posts about the NYPD should also have included a clear statement that I wasn't trying to make LEOs look bad. God bless 'em, they deserve bouquets, not criticism. They are just human beings doing a tough job that involves handling a firearm every day.

The annual NYPD report is the only public statistical record I can find regarding NDs. Other police departments probably keep the records as unpublished info. I extracted certain parts to make a point about NDs, but the complete report tells how 35,000 officers keep the peace in our largest city with very little use of their firearms. My apologies to the NYC officers who were characterized in a very narrow, negative way in my posts.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-27-2013 at 08:46..
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:46   #442
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Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
Thirteen days of basic firearms training and semi-annual requal doesn't sound pooly trained to me. Then there is the FATS simulator, FOF training, and various tactical training courses.

The "poorly trained b.s." is getting really old.

Oh! Lest I forget...roll call training.

Ask yourself how your training stacks up before you start flapping your yap or you may be discovered to be an ignorant yahoo.

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I'd go even further and suggest that as a group, NYC cops are VERY well trained, especially when compared to "average" or even "advanced" civilian firearms users (of course, there are exceptions among both police and civilians). This makes PhotoFeller's point even more persuasive: Even with extensive training, and even with the hard "New York trigger", NDs are a relatively high-probability risk when carrying firearms in C1. NYPD accepts this risk and probably considers it substantially less serious than the risk cops face daily interacting with their scumbag "clients."

To reply to couple of other posters: Anyone who says "ND is never going to happen to me because I am more alert, better trained, and have more common sense than everyone else, and thus I'll keep my gun in C1 under my pillow" is just fooling himself/herself. The same people say they'll never have a car accident... until they do. And even then they come up with some lame excuse for what happened and go back to texting, eating doritos, and jerking off while driving... Sorry for the language, but I just can't stand when my position is insulted by someone who clearly spent less than 0.5 seconds thinking about this issue.
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:47   #443
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
Thanks, happy. I should have included information about their training to provide a more complete picture.

My posts about the NYPD should also have included a clear statement that I wasn't trying to make LEOs look bad. God bless 'em, they deserve bouquets, not criticism. They are just human beings doing a tough job that involves handling a firearm every day.

The annual NYPD report is the only public statistical record I can find regarding NDs. Other police departments probably keep the records as unpublished info. I extracted certain parts to make a point about NDs, but the complete report tells how 35,000 officers keep the peace in our largest city with very little use of their firearms. My apologies to the NYC officers who were characterized in a very narrow, negative way in my posts.
My point is that these guys are indeed very well trained and yet they still make mistakes that lead to AD's.

It's an attention/human problem and no one is 100%, 100% of the time. The more safeties you add to a weapon the greater the likelyhood one of them will save you from yourself but there is a point of diminishing returns.

I personally don't see anything wrong with a Commonolli safety.

My personal favorite carry guns are my H&K P7 (probably one of the safest guns to carry ever made and the only auto I am confortable carrying AIWB), my S&W 442, and I am returning to carrying a 1911 after a long hiatus as well.

I'm not getting rid of any Glocks though and will continue to carry them in C1 when they are carried, but to paraphase Bugs Bunny I will be, "veery veery careful."

Just one mans random opinion.

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Last edited by happyguy; 02-28-2013 at 02:02..
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:08   #444
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Originally Posted by ModGlock17 View Post
Lets make it slightly more complicated.

Carrying with one in the chamber while not being a LEO and being all gungho about it on a recorded public forum that is easily searchable, would that create a fertile discovery for a Prosecutor who wants to prove that you're a man with a readied gun LOOKing for a fight, that you're no longer in defensive mode??



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Not only that, but hurting someone as a result of NDing your weapon will definitely portray you as a gungho who shouldn't be carrying any sort of weapon, and will likely "earn" you couple of years in the slammer.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:11   #445
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This statement was made by a Georgia resident following a December 2012 negligent discharge in his car:

"In closing, please don't be complacent. The posts I see about negligent discharges are full of flippant “keep your booger hook off the bang switch” type remarks. While I totally agree, this confidence can be deadly. Don't ever think you are good enough or experienced enough or smart enough. NEVER EVER EVER think, “that will never happen to me”. This makes you inherently less cautious. We should instead say, “oh wow, I need to be extra vigilant in my safety practices so that never happens to me”. Be humble and be safe."

In January 2012, this guy had a negligent discharge in his home as he prepared to clean his handgun:

"On the bright side (if there is a bright side to this) nobody was injured, aside from my powder burn which I take as a small reminder. Also, this is going to make me so much more vigilant about gun safety. I now have a plan detailing when and where I will field strip my weapons. As bad as this negligent discharge was, it could have been worse. Having had it is going to make me a better gun owner because now I know for sure that it can happen to me, I am not immune to stupid. If I allow myself to get complacent again, it will happen again, and this time it may not be my wall that stops the bullet."

These are intelligent (judging from the way their statements read), responsible, caring civilians who made a tragic mistake due to the inherent imperfection of human beings. That's the only point here, and these aren't abstract, hard-to-find testimonials.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-27-2013 at 11:27..
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:46   #446
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I respect your decision, even though I disagree with it. But I do have a serious question that you didn't answer: If you were carrying a revolver, would you leave the first staged chamber empty because of fear of an ND?
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:19   #447
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I respect your decision, even though I disagree with it. But I do have a serious question that you didn't answer: If you were carrying a revolver, would you leave the first staged chamber empty because of fear of an ND?
I used to carry a revolver, mostly while I was hunting, and I loaded all 6 holes. My S&W 357s have a long trigger pull and a pull weight from the factory of about 12 lbs., I think. My belt holsters have a snap-down retention strap behind the hammer; I was conservative then, too.

If I were to carry a revolver today, it wouldn't be for self defense; revolvers are more difficult to conceal and my steel frame guns are pretty heavy. If I do carry one in the woods, I probably would not leave a chamber empty. I'm conflicted about that answer a little bit because it seems to fly in the face of my stated concern about carrying Glocks C1.

Somehow, the revolver platform seems inherently safer than Glocks, and the trigger operation is longer and heavier. When the trigger pull starts, the cylinder starts to rotate and the hammer moves rearward, providing visible cues immediately that the firing mechanism is being operated.

I understand where you're going, and I'm trying to be responsive. Let me say this: I'll do whatever I think is necessary to be safe with a revolver under the circumstances. To be perfectly honest, I haven't thought much about revolver carry mode.

Thanks for the way you phrased your question. I'll be happy to have some more discussion about it, and I'd like to hear your reaction to my answer.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-27-2013 at 19:31..
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:33   #448
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I've been carrying since 1999, and if there isn't one in the chamber....that means the magazine is empty.


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Old 02-27-2013, 12:53   #449
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Thanks for the honest answer. I wasn't trying to trap you in some kind of logic trap with the revolver question, I was just really curious.
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:54   #450
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When I first decided to carry a concealed weapon in public, it was a big deal.
I think we SHOULD think of it as a big deal, even if it comes natural to us.
I carried NO ROUND in the chamber. Probably for a couple of years, happily.

For some, like me, carrying a gun was a real process. Feel free to carry concealed WITHOUT a round chambered. It is a fine way to keep a gun handy at home as well.

Just keep practicing and learning and doing what is safe and makes sense on this...
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Old 02-27-2013, 13:35   #451
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Originally Posted by sugarcreek View Post
When I first decided to carry a concealed weapon in public, it was a big deal.
I think we SHOULD think of it as a big deal, even if it comes natural to us.
I carried NO ROUND in the chamber. Probably for a couple of years, happily.

For some, like me, carrying a gun was a real process. Feel free to carry concealed WITHOUT a round chambered. It is a fine way to keep a gun handy at home as well.

Just keep practicing and learning and doing what is safe and makes sense on this...
Wisdom is always welcome.
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Old 02-27-2013, 13:44   #452
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I used to carry a revolver, mostly while I was hunting, and I loaded all 6 holes. My S&W 357s have a long trigger pull and a pull weight from the factory of about 12 lbs., I think. My OWB belt holsters have a snap-down retention strap behind the hammer; I was conservative then, too.

If I were to carry a revolver today, it wouldn't be for self defense; revolvers are more difficult to conceal and my steel frame guns are pretty heavy. If I do carry one in the woods, I probably would not leave a chamber empty. I'm conflicted about that answer a little bit because it seems to fly in the face of my cautiousness about carrying Glocks C1.

Somehow, the revolver platform seems inherently safer than Glocks, and the trigger operation is longer and heavier. When the trigger pull starts, the cylinder starts to rotate and the hammer moves rearward, providing visible cues immediately that the firing mechanism is being operated.

I understand where you're going, and I'm trying to be responsive. Let me say this: I'll do whatever I think is necessary to be safe with a revolver under the circumstances. To be perfectly honest, I haven't thought much about revolver carry mode.

Thanks for the way you phrased your question. I'll be happy to have some more discussion about it, and I'd like to hear your reaction to my answer.
It's as simple as the much longer and heavier pull, Imo. Leaves less room for error if holstering a revolver. I should say I carry c1 mostly with my g27. I'm not opposed to safeties though. I have the safety engaged while holstering my Shield. I disengage once it's seated. Holstering a firearm is always done slow and I'm looking it in the holster.
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Old 02-27-2013, 20:01   #453
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
Everybody is probably worn out from our "epic diatribe" posts, so good for you.

Your statement explains your point of view just fine.

Welcome to GT.
No I am not worn out by them. I have been a reader of this site for years without contributing. Diatribes welcome. But I probably should carry loaded. The rack of a slide can be as disconcerting as a shotgun pump or laser dot. I also used to think unloading at the end of the day would chew up ammo rims as I load the same round back in before I head out for the day but that is just totally unfounded.
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Old 02-27-2013, 20:29   #454
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No I am not worn out by them. I have been a reader of this site for years without contributing. Diatribes welcome. But I probably should carry loaded. The rack of a slide can be as disconcerting as a shotgun pump or laser dot. I also used to think unloading at the end of the day would chew up ammo rims as I load the same round back in before I head out for the day but that is just totally unfounded.
Black Eagle, I'm glad you decided to step into the circle. Your input is important. The more participants we have, no matter which side you lean towards on any issue, the better off we all are. I hope your example will encourage others to join in.

By the way, I have always thought ejecting a live round would nick the cartridge rim a bit. Thanks.

Please come back, and back, and back again.

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Old 02-27-2013, 21:49   #455
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I accept almost everything you say in this post as statements to support your carry mode, but the final paragraph where you slip in the knife with the old "...bury your head in the sand..." remark really is unwarranted; its aimed unfairly at C3 proponents who thoughtfully take the risk of ND along with the low probability of attack into consideration. You have your preferred method, which is fine, and we have ours.

To me its amusing that many C1 advocates don't care if the probability of attack is 1 in a million, or 1 in a billion, carrying in C1 is a high, 24/7 priority. Yet the real high-risk things we do routinely, such as allowing our kids to ride on school buses without seat belts, don't even show up on the list of dangers we want to protect against. Are there other routine daily activities that present greater risk than assault by a bad guy...things that we fail to do everything possible to prevent? You bet there are.

We all are guilty of "putting our heads in the sand" to some extent. I suggest that we be careful not to do it with risks that really have serious consequences and are more likely to strike us and our loved ones. I don't worry much about 1 in a million risks.
Then, I take it, you don't carry concealed, since you don't worry about one in a million risks. Correct?

By the way, can you provide some stats on the chance of being a victim of a violent crime in the US compared to the risk of ND if carrying C1?

I find it interesting how many people almost treat it as a fore gone conclusion that if you carry C1, that it's just a matter of time before you have an ND or that you are much more likely to have one.

Can you even point to any statistics, or even anecdotal evidence, that states that people carrying C1 are more likely to experience an ND while handling firearms than people that carry C3 or don't carry concealed at all, for that matter?
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Old 02-27-2013, 21:54   #456
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I, like you, fully appreciate the benefits of "consistency". But, I can't agree with the quoted argument. Different levels of threat call for different levels of response.

Think going from White to Red color code. To me the colors can be mapped onto carrying a gun as follows:
(1) Gun is in the safe, locked unloaded (totally safe - White).
(2) Gun is in the holster or by the bed side in C3 (threat is possible - Yellow).
(3) Gun in the holster or by the bed side in C1 (threat is present, its parameters unknown - Orange).
(4) Gun in the hands in low-ready or other pertinent position, shooter behind cover/concealment (lethal threat is definite and clearly identified - Red).

As you see, C1 v. C3 becomes part of a larger threat response framework. Holding c1 v. c3 constant has clear benefits (i.e., consistency), but also has downsides (i.e., reduced flexibility, and thus effectiveness in responding to various threats). You are clearly aware of the benefits, but seem to ignore the downsides.

Just my 0.02!

P.S. I think you and I will never agree on this (given our prior exchanges in this thread). Nevertheless, I want new shooters on this forum to be exposed to a variety of perspectives on this important issue.
Ok, let me understand this, you go C1 on the bedside when there is a threat present? So, is this after an intruder has broken into your house, but before going into your bedroom?

Ok, that was a bit facetious, but you just made my point, which is you never really know when a threat is present, certainly not at your bedside. Now, if you are going to make it more blanket, such as in a hotel room equates to "threat present" than that is conceding that you never really know when a threat will be present, but are arbitrarily choosing when to go "cocked and unlocked" with a Glock.

I just don't see how those that argue the biggest reason for not carrying C1 is AD/ND, also argue that they should routinely and unnecessarily do action most likely to cause an AD/ND, which is load/unload their weapon.
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Old 02-27-2013, 22:33   #457
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...God bless [the Police], they deserve bouquets, not criticism. They are just human beings doing a tough job that involves handling a firearm every day. ...
qft..
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Old 02-27-2013, 22:46   #458
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Jeeze-my guns in the "hot" safe all have chambered rounds and carry - absoloutely!
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Old 02-27-2013, 22:48   #459
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Ok, let me understand this, you go C1 on the bedside when there is a threat present? So, is this after an intruder has broken into your house, but before going into your bedroom?

Ok, that was a bit facetious, but you just made my point, which is you never really know when a threat is present, certainly not at your bedside. Now, if you are going to make it more blanket, such as in a hotel room equates to "threat present" than that is conceding that you never really know when a threat will be present, but are arbitrarily choosing when to go "cocked and unlocked" with a Glock.

I just don't see how those that argue the biggest reason for not carrying C1 is AD/ND, also argue that they should routinely and unnecessarily do action most likely to cause an AD/ND, which is load/unload their weapon.
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Old 02-27-2013, 22:52   #460
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Loaded Glock = Self Defense tool


Unloaded Glock = Complicated and weird looking rock for throwing


NOTE: Semi-auto pistols carried around upholstered can be dangerous if one is in the tube. If you carry upholstered, a revolver, sans chambered round, might be better suited to your style.
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