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Old 02-19-2013, 18:33   #341
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Originally Posted by vandros View Post


Why I carry a knife and gun? I like knives and guns (like that lawyer from your post). Being an innocent victim of some idiot with an IQ in the single digits sucks! Picturing my loved ones violently murdered by some homicidal lunatic is the worst nightmare for me (or for anyone else). But, are these "rational" reasons to worry about these attacks (and even owning a gun, and much more carrying a gun, and even more carrying a gun in C1)? In my case, the answer is probably "no". In my case, carrying a gun and knife is mostly a strong emotional response (with occasional rational use)... I do enjoy training and enjoy shooting, for whatever its worth.
I think your entire post (#337) is pretty darn insightful. The above excerpt in particular hits close to home for me, and I wonder if it might apply to many people who carry a firearm.

Enjoying the hardware first and foremost, and seeing a practical application for it (self defense), makes it pretty natural to embrace concealed carry in one form or another. This could explain why most of us who CC own multiple handguns; many of us own far more than we could ever justify for self defense alone.

This may be the most plausible explanation for a substantial number of gun owners who carry for SD. I suspect there aren't lots of folks who will admit it, but I will.

This doesn't explain why C1 is the generally preferred mode of carry. Maybe its as simple as the firearms trainer explained in an earlier post: guns should be carried in the manner they were designed to be carried.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-19-2013 at 19:10..
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Old 02-19-2013, 18:58   #342
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People that don't carry, and have never felt the need to, feel safe. Nothing has ever happened to them.

Some people like LEO and some former military are, lets say, self programed to be always aware. These people do not want to get caught without a gun in a bad situation.

I know some vets that after returning from the crap holes they were in feel naked without a gun.

In the world we live in now, s-hitting the fan can start anywhere anytime. If you want to feel safe by carrying, ok. If you already feel safe and don't want to carry, ok.
In Florida, the state with the highest number of CC permits, less than 4% of the population have a license to carry. Texas has a higher population but fewer permit holders.

The explanation for this low level of Florida CC license holders would be, based on your statement, that the population has a very, very low incidence of crimes committed against them or against someone close to them. They feel safe.

Your explanation certainly answers part of the puzzle. I've read posts in other threads about attack experiences involving ex-husbands and in-laws, jealous lovers, bar situations, that conditioned the victims to be forever prepared for trouble.

The daily experiences of LEOs would, of course, make them wary. The same is true of military combat veterans.

These situations provide real-life reasons some people are motivated to carry.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-20-2013 at 08:20..
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Old 02-19-2013, 19:11   #343
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I carry one in the chamber. I want to be able to use one hand, draw the G17, and shoot my attacker.
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Old 02-19-2013, 19:18   #344
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
Your explanation certainly answers part of the puzzle. I've read posts in other threads about attack experiences involving ex-husbands and in-laws, jealous lovers, bar situations, that conditioned the victims to be forever prepared for trouble.

The daily experiences of LEOs would, of course, make them wary. The same is true of military combat veterans.

These situations provide real-life reasons some people are motivated to carry.

Yup! Hindsight is always 20/20........IF you can still see!
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Old 02-19-2013, 21:11   #345
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I carry one in the chamber. I want to be able to use one hand, draw the G17, and shoot my attacker.
SC-
From the looks of your low crime statistics in Hartford, you'd have a hard time finding an attacker to use your G17 on. Thats a very good thing for you and fellow residents.

The state of Vermont also has a remarkably low rate for violent crimes:

"Based on this report [City Ratings.Com], the crime rate in Vermont for 2013 is expected to be lower than in 2010 when the state violent crime rate was lower than the national violent crime rate average by 71.88% and the state property crime rate was lower than the national property crime rate average by 2.33%."

You folks are doing something right up there to discourage violent crime. What's your secret? Maybe this is part of the explanation:

"Vermont does not issue Permit/Licenses to Carry a Concealed firearm. Vermont does allow anyone who can legally own a firearm to carry it concealed without a permit of any kind."

Good for Vermont!!

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-20-2013 at 10:22..
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Old 02-19-2013, 22:44   #346
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I've been following this thread with great interest. The discussion is, for the most part, intelligent. It has caused me to take a look at my personal CC habits. I used to always carry C1, no matter what, because my weapon wont fire unless I make it. But the last two weeks I have been going C3 at work, because the likelihood of actually needing to defend myself there is pretty slim (although I have fired a nutjob who made threats to other employees, which I took seriously because I knew he had weapons in his vehicle, so nothing is a sure thing) I live in a generally low crime area, with the majority of violent crime being either domestic or drug related. I doubt that I will ever need to even draw my EDC because I avoid those types of situations, however, there is always the slight chance. So I'll probably go C3 while working on-site, and C1 in places I think it might be appropriate, and not at all in places prohibited by law.

My difficulty with CC in general is the fact that I can carry where I probably don't need to, but am prohibited from carrying in places that have a high likelihood I will actually need to defend myself. I often travel to jobs out of state, often in states that do not recognize my permit. When I was sent to work on a building in Oakland, CA, for example, and I traveled a few short blocks from the job to get some lunch, I had to be buzzed into a Taco Bell, at 2 in the afternoon I felt a little naked. I'm sent to work in rough neighborhoods, in rough cities far too often. Another time I just finished getting gas near a job in a rough area of Omaha, when two guys started fighting in the parking lot, I got the heck out of there, but heard shots fired as I pulled away The whole logic of the gun grabbers baffles me. Every city I've been to that has strict gun laws and no CC, are also high crime areas.

Anyway, I've strayed from the topic, thanks for keeping this thread intelligent, far too many of them degrade into something less.

Last edited by FloorPoor; 02-19-2013 at 22:47..
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Old 02-20-2013, 21:01   #347
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Interesting vids. The real worst-case scenario is when you have type-3 malfunction (spent case in the chamber, and another round fails to feed, jamming into the spent case) when operating the weapon one handed. I, for the life of me, cannot figure out how to clear this malfunction one handed... It seems if this happens during a fire fight, you are pretty much f&^*ed!
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Old 02-20-2013, 21:28   #348
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
I have revealed that I prefer to carry C3, and I often don't carry a firearm at all. My explanation for these choices is that my lifestyle (retired, gated community, low-crime town) allows me to stay away from places/areas where assaults and armed robberies happen; the exceptions would be stopping points while traveling, late-night visits of necessity to the drug store, etc.

For those who CC every place, every day and choose C1, are there any circumstances where you would feel comfortable unarmed? Are there any places where you could turn off situational awareness and eliminate the tension of being constantly prepared for attack?

Since most who always CC feel a low probability of attack still doesn't allow for being comfortable without a weapon, I'm wondering why so many people in the general public, including nearly everyone I've known over 70+ years, see no need to be armed in everyday life. Where is the disconnect?

I understand there are dangerous places in cities everywhere. I realize there can be random acts of violence in churches and other safe havens. What I don't understand is why so few see the need to be armed always while so many never take self defense measures beyond locking their doors.

Is the disconnect the result of naïveté among the masses? Is my perception of relative safety in my life a matter of self deception? Is continuous carry in C1 and constant readiness for combat, including preparation for operating a gun after sustaining wounds, a prescription for every sensible person? Or, are different levels of SD preparedness reasonable based on the circumstances of one's life? I believe this is a relevant aspect of the C1-C3 discussion.
There was a time, in what I refer to as the by-gone days, where only criminals and Cops carried guns on a regular basis. Simply put, the "average Joe and or Josephine" only needed a gun to go hunting or shooting.

As far as criminals, they were involved with things that precipitated being armed so as to protect their specific criminal interest, albeit nefarious as it were on the whole. As far as Cops, they were (are) The Keepers of the Peace, which necessitated they carrying a gun as a device to ensure their several abilities to maintain their sworn affidavit to keep the peace in their community(ies).

So what about today? Well, today, criminals have learned that armed Police are NOT the ones in which to visit their pursuit of criminality upon. Instead, the criminals have decided to go after those persons that usually would not expect to be a subject or victim of criminality due to these same latter persons not being part of the criminal lifestyle. Simpler to state it as the criminals are trying to find EASY victims.

Go talk to some prison inmates. Personally look them in the eye and ask them what they fear(ed) the most while perpetrating their crimes. If they are honest, practically 100% of the time you will get a response, paraphrased, along this wise or these lines. "I mostly feared my intended victim possibly being armed with a gun or having a weapon that was sufficiently capable of being used against me while he/she defended himself/herself from my intentions."

If you get the same or a similar response, then ask them, as a follow up question, Weren't you more afraid of the Police, or the Judge's sentence, or maybe even someone "snitching" you out?!?

As far as the follow up question, personally speaking, I have had criminals laugh me in the face for asking. Simply put, the only thing a bad guy or criminal is really afraid of are those law abiding citizens that carry concealed weapons with which they can defend themselves.

We do NOT live in Grandpa's or Grandma's G-d fearing world. We live in a world where darkness abounds and those that would thrive in that darkness are only scared of those citizens that are armed to defend themselves and their family members.
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Last edited by Peace Warrior; 02-20-2013 at 21:30..
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Old 02-20-2013, 21:33   #349
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[sarcasm]
Has anyone considered carrying ammunition without a firearm? If the situation warrants, you can just manually insert the bullets where they need to be without the firearm at all. That's how they do it in the real tough neighborhoods.
[/sarcasm]



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Exercise your personal choice, and carry, or don't carry any way you like as long as it is legal.

Be safe. Bad things happen in nice places.
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Old 02-20-2013, 23:54   #350
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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior;
We do NOT live in Grandpa's or Grandma's G-d fearing world. We live in a world where darkness abounds and those that would thrive in that darkness are only scared of those citizens that are armed to defend themselves and their family members.
Well said, PW. I disagree with most of your analysis, but thats simply my view versus yours.

From your vantage point, as I understand it, we live in a dark, dangerous place where only armed citizens keep the criminals in check. I judge society based on what I experience day-in and day-out, and its far different from your description. You choose to emphasize the underbelly, and I generally see a positive, peaceful, God fearing society.

Time will tell who has the clearer view.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-21-2013 at 00:01..
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Old 02-21-2013, 02:56   #351
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Well said, PW. I disagree with most of your analysis, but thats simply my view versus yours.

From your vantage point, as I understand it, we live in a dark, dangerous place where only armed citizens keep the criminals in check. I judge society based on what I experience day-in and day-out, and its far different from your description. You choose to emphasize the underbelly, and I generally see a positive, peaceful, God fearing society.

Time will tell who has the clearer view.

A persons perspective of what is good or bad going on around them may be attributed to where they live. It may also be attributed to ones background too.
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:06   #352
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I have revealed that I prefer to carry C3, and I often don't carry a firearm at all. My explanation for these choices is that my lifestyle (retired, gated community, low-crime town) allows me to stay away from places/areas where assaults and armed robberies happen; the exceptions would be stopping points while traveling, late-night visits of necessity to the drug store, etc.

For those who CC every place, every day and choose C1, are there any circumstances where you would feel comfortable unarmed? Years ago yes, but not anymore.

Are there any places where you could turn off situational awareness and eliminate the tension of being constantly prepared for attack? Yes, but they are far and few between of late. But there is no need for "tension", you will do better in every aspect of your life if you are relaxed but ready.

Since most who always CC feel a low probability of attack still doesn't allow for being comfortable without a weapon, I'm wondering why so many people in the general public, including nearly everyone I've known over 70+ years, see no need to be armed in everyday life. Where is the disconnect? It always happens to someone else...it can't happen to me.

I understand there are dangerous places in cities everywhere. I realize there can be random acts of violence in churches and other safe havens. What I don't understand is why so few see the need to be armed always while so many never take self defense measures beyond locking their doors. It always happens to someone else...it can't happen to me.

Is the disconnect the result of naïveté among the masses? Yes
Is my perception of relative safety in my life a matter of self deception? No, you are less likely to be a victim if you are living in a gated community, but if you become a victim the price is still the same.

Is continuous carry in C1 and constant readiness for combat, including preparation for operating a gun after sustaining wounds, a prescription for every sensible person? Yes, sort of. It's something you need to be able to turn on and off like a light switch. You still have a life to live and enjoy, carrying and being prepared should enhance the experience not detract from it.

Or, are different levels of SD preparedness reasonable based on the circumstances of one's life? I think one should always be prepared but the level of preparedness can be different depending on the circumstances you are in. I believe this is a relevant aspect of the C1-C3 discussion. I agree.
I do feel odd when I'm not armed but I think that has a lot more to do with having carried a weapon for 40 years than a fear of being attacked. I feel odd without a cell phone with me anymore too.

I was also the victim of an attempted strong arm robbery in the parking lot of a Federal Courthouse within fifty yards of the security desk. It happened as I was leaving and removing my G36 from my glove box and putting it in my waistband (C1 - in a holster) encouraged the fellows to bother someone else.

So while some places are more secure than others, there are no safe places. Millionaires living in gated communities commit murder or have mental health issues too. And on top of that they have a lot of "stuff" that others want to get without earning it.

If I were living as you say you are I would probably pocket my S&W 442 when I took the dog for a walk and not worry about it. But I have made a commitment to always be armed and able to protect myself and my family.

You just make your choices based on the info you have available. If you make the wrong choice you try to keep a good attitude and resolve to do better next time.

As to why others don't feel the need to be armed? I believe it's just another form of denial. They honestly don't believe anything bad is going to happen to them and they are always completely surprised when it does.

Still prefer C1.

Regards,
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Last edited by happyguy; 02-21-2013 at 08:27..
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Old 02-21-2013, 08:49   #353
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how did this thread make an EPIC 15 PAGES??????



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Old 02-21-2013, 09:08   #354
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SC-
From the looks of your low crime statistics in Hartford, you'd have a hard time finding an attacker to use your G17 on. Thats a very good thing for you and fellow residents.

The state of Vermont also has a remarkably low rate for violent crimes:

"Based on this report [City Ratings.Com], the crime rate in Vermont for 2013 is expected to be lower than in 2010 when the state violent crime rate was lower than the national violent crime rate average by 71.88% and the state property crime rate was lower than the national property crime rate average by 2.33%."

You folks are doing something right up there to discourage violent crime. What's your secret? Maybe this is part of the explanation:

"Vermont does not issue Permit/Licenses to Carry a Concealed firearm. Vermont does allow anyone who can legally own a firearm to carry it concealed without a permit of any kind."

Good for Vermont!!
While we may like to think that Vermont's liberal state policy of carrying arms (no permit for any mode) is a prime reason for that state's low crime rates, the real reason has more to do with the demographics. Vermont has a very homogenous population which has extremely low percentages of the demographic groups which have the highest crime rates in the nation (black and hispanic). The people who live there, in large part, can trace their lineage back a number of generations in the state. This leads to a commonality and a "buy-in" to traditions and culture, untainted by external forces.
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:12   #355
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:19   #356
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Police officer carry: One in the chamber, ready to fire

Bad guy carry: One in the chamber, ready to fire.

Anyone else see a pattern here?

Why would anyone legally carrying a pistol, NOT want a round in the chamber, ready to fire?

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Old 02-21-2013, 10:42   #357
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OP: Some problems have more than one correct answer. Do what you feel most comfortable with. Don't let others talk you into doing what is uncomfortable FOR YOU.

I was uncomfortable carrying with one in the pipe at first. I installed a Siderlock trigger safety, used it for almost a year. Now I carry with stock trigger and one chambered because I'm comfortable with it.
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:47   #358
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Here are some actual numbers on the subject if anyone is interested.
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1473148
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:43   #359
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I do feel odd when I'm not armed but I think that has a lot more to do with having carried a weapon for 40 years than a fear of being attacked. I feel odd without a cell phone with me anymore too.

I was also the victim of an attempted strong arm robbery in the parking lot of a Federal Courthouse within fifty yards of the security desk. It happened as I was leaving and removing my G36 from my glove box and putting it in my waistband (C1 - in a holster) encouraged the fellows to bother someone else.

So while some places are more secure than others, there are no safe places. Millionaires living in gated communities commit murder or have mental health issues too. And on top of that they have a lot of "stuff" that others want to get without earning it.

If I were living as you say you are I would probably pocket my S&W 442 when I took the dog for a walk and not worry about it. But I have made a commitment to always be armed and able to protect myself and my family.

You just make your choices based on the info you have available. If you make the wrong choice you try to keep a good attitude and resolve to do better next time.

As to why others don't feel the need to be armed? I believe it's just another form of denial. They honestly don't believe anything bad is going to happen to them and they are always completely surprised when it does.

Still prefer C1.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
Great post...thoughtful and well stated. We don't agree on everything, but I sure respect your opinion and the way you present it.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-21-2013 at 11:50..
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:01   #360
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OP: Some problems have more than one correct answer. Do what you feel most comfortable with. Don't let others talk you into doing what is uncomfortable FOR YOU.
Amen, brother. Thats what this exercise is all about: understand your responsibility and accountability, consider your options, honestly evaluate your competence with a handgun, determine your self defense needs and make a decision. Whether you decide on C1 or C3, it is strictly YOUR CALL.

If you go through a thoughtful process to decide your mode of carry, no one can ever say you are reckless, foolish, chicken, on an ego trip or anything else commonly associated with questionable CC decision making. Just think it through.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-21-2013 at 14:53..
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