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Old 02-26-2013, 20:53   #426
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Originally Posted by Smooth_squeeze View Post
30 seconds is better than mine, which is 45 seconds. Still it's better than nothing.
The system beep-before-alarm time is adjustable by ADT, as I understand it. I don't know what mine is set for.
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Old 02-26-2013, 20:57   #427
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All I have to say is wow... just wow. I think DU invaded Glocktalk.

Sounds like some folks need to learn their firearms, or buy 1911's, or something.

Carrying on an empty chamber is stupid. Stupid.
But, Kerry says Americans have the right to be stupid, so, so be it...
Do you also not drive the speed limit, because a little slower mucst be safer..?

If you are worried about an ND, freaking practice and know your weapon. Practice safe handling. Buy a decent holster and know how to holster and unholster without putting your finger on the trigger.
KNOW THE FOUR RULES.

Guns never "go off" by themselves. If you're more worried about your own lack of control causing an ND than you are about the BG's you are supposedly carrying for... perhaps carrying isn't for you?
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Old 02-26-2013, 21:27   #428
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(b) the risk of a ND in C1 is way greater than the probability of needing to quick draw against an attacker.
Wow, you really do not trust yourself. Very interesting.

I can think of a million very ordinary quick-draw scenarios. I honestly cannot imagine myself having a ND. I can control my finger and keep it off the trigger, and I obsessively safety check every gun I handle.

How do you picture yourself having a ND? You just don't think you can train yourself to grab the gun without putting your finger on the trigger? You aren't in the habit yet of safety checking your gun when you handle it? Are you afraid you will sit or twist a certain way and the gun will go off in the holster? Do you hold your breath when re-holstering? I'm not being facetious, I am just curious as to how you picture that ND actually happening, because you must have if you've gotten to the point of paying to modify your gun with additional parts. Do you see yourself shooting yourself in the foot like the infamous cop-in-the-classroom youtube video? Do you think you'll put a hole in the side of your dresser because you undress too casually? Please tell me, I am really curious.

On one hand, I kinda get it -- to me carrying a 1911 in C1 has always seemed a little freaky because those triggers are so short. On the other hand, if I had to carry a 1911, I'm pretty sure I could get over it with a combination of logical thinking and training to overcome the area in which I think I am most likely to fail. Oddly, I've never given a C1 Glock any more thought that a revolver with every chamber loaded.

One more question (serious) - if you were carrying a revolver, would you leave the first staged chamber empty?

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Old 02-26-2013, 22:28   #429
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Wow, you really do not trust yourself. Very interesting.

I can think of a million very ordinary quick-draw scenarios. I honestly cannot imagine myself having a ND. I can control my finger and keep it off the trigger, and I obsessively safety check every gun I handle.

How do you picture yourself having a ND? You just don't think you can train yourself to grab the gun without putting your finger on the trigger? You aren't in the habit yet of safety checking your gun when you handle it? Are you afraid you will sit or twist a certain way and the gun will go off in the holster? Do you hold your breath when re-holstering? I'm not being facetious, I am just curious as to how you picture that ND actually happening, because you must have if you've gotten to the point of paying to modify your gun with additional parts. Do you see yourself shooting yourself in the foot like the infamous cop-in-the-classroom youtube video? Do you think you'll put a hole in the side of your dresser because you undress too casually? Please tell me, I am really curious.

On one hand, I kinda get it -- to me carrying a 1911 in C1 has always seemed a little freaky because those triggers are so short. On the other hand, if I had to carry a 1911, I'm pretty sure I could get over it with a combination of logical thinking and training to overcome the area in which I think I am most likely to fail. Oddly, I've never given a C1 Glock any more thought that a revolver with every chamber loaded.

One more question (serious) - if you were carrying a revolver, would you leave the first staged chamber empty?
You know, SJ, I have tried to explain my particular situation in earlier posts. I have to say, respectfully, we've been over this territory pretty thoroughly before; it would be severely redundant to revisit my opinions and my reasoning in order to address your points.

You and medman really should read through the thread if you want to disagree with things I've said. I welcome your contribution, although I suspect you are both 'mainstream' thinkers about C1 and we could only agree, at best, to disagree.

If you think you'd never have a ND because you're so well trained or experienced or smart, review the NYPD's experience over the past 10 years.

If you can think of a million scenarios requiring a quick draw, know that your lifestyle and mine must be worlds apart.

If you believe that continuously carrying a lethal weapon with one in the chamber is essential to your safe passage through this life, then you probably should investigate finding a safer environment to live in.

I'll look forward to your posts after you catch up on the discussion.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-26-2013 at 22:29..
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Old 02-26-2013, 22:33   #430
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
The NYPD publishes an annual report of officer weapon discharges, including unintentional discharges. The following excerpt is from the 2011 report:

"Three of the 13 firearms discharged during purely unintentional incidents were weapons that were not the officers’ regular service or off-duty firearms—two were perpetrator’s weap- ons, and one was an ESU Glock 19 equipped with an under-the-barrel flashlight.
More notably, six of the remaining ten firearms were also manufactured by Glock (three model 19s and three model 26s). In fact, with regard to officers experiencing unintentional dis- charges while loading or unloading their own firearms, 75 percent of such incidents involved Glocks. Their overrepresentation in this category has been seen consistently over the past five years: since 2007, there have been 31 incidents in which officers unintentionally discharged their own firearms during loading/unloading, and 22 of those incidents—71 percent—have involved Glocks."

Yep, them Glock pistols is the safest!!
Since NYPD issue service handguns are Glocks I'm not surprised that Glocks were involved in six out of 13 negligent discharges in 2011. (The seventh Glock was not an issue weapon) I recall reading that NYPD employs 25,000 officers, all presumed extensively trained in the safe handling of issued firearms.

I wouldn't be surprised if the same number of NDs occurred if the issued weapons were Smith & Wesson, Ruger, or any other model with manual safeties. My guess is it's the familiarity of routine coupled with a preoccupied mind that leads to the vast majority of ND incidents, not whether a firearm has or lacks a manual safety.
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Old 02-26-2013, 22:50   #431
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All I have to say is wow... just wow. I think DU invaded Glocktalk.

Sounds like some folks need to learn their firearms, or buy 1911's, or something.

Carrying on an empty chamber is stupid. Stupid.
But, Kerry says Americans have the right to be stupid, so, so be it...
Do you also not drive the speed limit, because a little slower mucst be safer..?

If you are worried about an ND, freaking practice and know your weapon. Practice safe handling. Buy a decent holster and know how to holster and unholster without putting your finger on the trigger.
KNOW THE FOUR RULES.

Guns never "go off" by themselves. If you're more worried about your own lack of control causing an ND than you are about the BG's you are supposedly carrying for... perhaps carrying isn't for you?
Mind your manners, medman. You're talkin' to an older gent who will swap ideas and opinions with you till the cows come home as long as you leave your attitude at home. Comments like "stupid, stupid" are better left 'thought but not said'.

Read through the thread. Read only my posts if you really want to understand where I'm coming from. Then, we'll get after it.

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Old 02-26-2013, 23:01   #432
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Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
Since NYPD issue service handguns are Glocks I'm not surprised that Glocks were involved in six out of 13 negligent discharges in 2011. (The seventh Glock was not an issue weapon) I recall reading that NYPD employs 25,000 officers, all presumed extensively trained in the safe handling of issued firearms.

I wouldn't be surprised if the same number of NDs occurred if the issued weapons were Smith & Wesson, Ruger, or any other model with manual safeties. My guess is it's the familiarity of routine coupled with a preoccupied mind that leads to the vast majority of ND incidents, not whether a firearm has or lacks a manual safety.
You may be absolutely right. Whatever the reason, people who say an ND can't happen to them are denying the truth about human behavior. I'm not suggesting everyone will experience a ND; I'm saying it can happen to anyone, including 22 NYPD officers per year, on average. And remember, they're using 12 lb. triggers. NDs are a fact of life.

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Old 02-26-2013, 23:11   #433
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If you think you'd never have a ND because you're so well trained or experienced or smart, review the NYPD's experience over the past 10 years.
Pfft. I don't consider cops to be any better trained with firearms just because they carry them. I've met more cops who are handgun ignorant than I care to remember. In fact, some of the sloppiest gun handling I've ever seen has come from police officers, so I do not consider the NYPD having NDs to be significant at all. In fact, I'd be way more surprised if they didn't have them. Many of those guys never shoot except to qualify and yet they handle their guns so often that they don't treat them safely (in my opinion).

And let's not pretend like this is advanced training, here. Just don't touch the trigger. Yes, it is that simple. I've been able to use a stove now for 40+ years without touching the flames. Yes, I'm sure there are chefs who burn their hands all the time. Doesn't mean I am going to touch the flames next time, or ever. I've trained myself not to touch them. Same with the trigger. Anyone who makes it out to be more than that is either really overthinking it, or as I've mentioned, just doesn't trust themselves.

One more point: It is almost certain that these NDs from Glocks would not have been prevented by adding on an external safety. What's more, it isn't even clear that forcing NYPD to carry in condition three would have prevented these.

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Old 02-26-2013, 23:15   #434
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You may be absolutely right. Whatever the reason, people who say an ND can't happen to them are denying the truth about human behavior. I'm not suggesting everyone will experience a ND; I'm saying it can happen to anyone, including 22 NYPD officers per year, on average. And remember, they're using 12 lb. triggers. NDs are a fact of life.
And those 12 pound triggers were PULLED! They weren't grazed or accidentally went off. Some yahoo (NYPD or not) didn't check his gun and then pulled the trigger.

People seem to forget that the first word in ND is NEGLIGENT, which is failure to exercise reasonable care. If you exercise reasonable care, you are fine. If you fail to do so, you will have a negligent discharge. Every single one of these hallowed NYPD NDs came when someone was not exercising reasonable care. Your arguments seem to imply that you can take reasonable care and this still might happen.

If you are worried you will ND, then you are worried about yourself that you are not able to exercise reasonable care. In which case, maybe a firearm isn't for you.

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Old 02-26-2013, 23:35   #435
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Originally Posted by SJShooter View Post
And those 12 pound triggers were PULLED! They weren't grazed or accidentally went off. Some yahoo (NYPD or not) didn't check his gun and then pulled the trigger.

People seem to forget that the first word in ND is NEGLIGENT, which is failure to exercise reasonable care. If you exercise reasonable care, you are fine. If you fail to do so, you will have a negligent discharge. Every single one of these hallowed NYPD NDs came when someone was not exercising reasonable care. Your arguments seem to imply that you can take reasonable care and this still might happen.

If you are worried you will ND, then you are worried about yourself that you are not able to exercise reasonable care. In which case, maybe a firearm isn't for you.
Thanks. Your opinions are shared by most folks who comment on this subject. Good luck and be safe.
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Old 02-27-2013, 00:16   #436
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:06   #437
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
.....

If you can think of a million scenarios requiring a quick draw, know that your lifestyle and mine must be worlds apart.

If you believe that continuously carrying a lethal weapon with one in the chamber is essential to your safe passage through this life, then you probably should investigate finding a safer environment to live in.
...
Lets make it slightly more complicated.

Carrying with one in the chamber while not being a LEO and being all gungho about it on a recorded public forum that is easily searchable, would that create a fertile discovery for a Prosecutor who wants to prove that you're a man with a readied gun LOOKing for a fight, that you're no longer in defensive mode??



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Old 02-27-2013, 05:25   #438
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Lets make it slightly more complicated.

Carrying with one in the chamber while not being a LEO and being all gungho about it on a recorded public forum that is easily searchable, would that create a fertile discovery for a Prosecutor who wants to prove that you're a man with a readied gun LOOKing for a fight, that you're no longer in defensive mode??



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I think that would be a stretch. I've not seen any posts that would come across as wild west. That being said, strange things happen in court.
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:00   #439
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All I have to say is wow... just wow. I think DU invaded Glocktalk.

Sounds like some folks need to learn their firearms, or buy 1911's, or something.

Carrying on an empty chamber is stupid. Stupid.
But, Kerry says Americans have the right to be stupid, so, so be it...
Do you also not drive the speed limit, because a little slower mucst be safer..?

If you are worried about an ND, freaking practice and know your weapon. Practice safe handling. Buy a decent holster and know how to holster and unholster without putting your finger on the trigger.
KNOW THE FOUR RULES.

Guns never "go off" by themselves. If you're more worried about your own lack of control causing an ND than you are about the BG's you are supposedly carrying for... perhaps carrying isn't for you?
The points you raise have been raised and responded to and raised again and responded to again dozens of times here. Try reading the thread before posting.

Way to troll an otherwise civil and substantive discussion!
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:04   #440
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The Firearms and Tactics Section is tasked with the important responsibility of providing firearms requalification and tactical training to uniformed members of the Department. The principal concern with any firearms instruction is always safety. The Firearms and Tactics Section takes careful steps in creating a safe working and learning environment. All firearms training starts with recruit firearms basic and continues through the in-service semi-annual qualification cycles, both of which continue to be the base essentials of all NYPD firearms training.

The Firearms and Tactics Section Mission:


Develop skills required for the safe and proficient use of firearms
Provide entry level training for newly hired officers
Instruct and re-qualify all uniformed members of the service with firearms
Develop strategies and tactical training to minimize firearms use
Improve firearms safety
The Firearms and Tactics Section conducts the following programs:


Recruit 13 Day Basic and Tactical Firearms Training Program
Semi Annual Firearms Re-Qualification Cycle for approximately 35,000 In–Service Officers
FATS–Training : Firearms simulator scenario based training
Special Weapons Training conducted for Special Operations Division and Highway Patrol
Advanced Tactical Firearms Course for plainclothes personnel
Tactical Pistol Firearms Course for Patrol, Transit and Housing Officers performing patrol related duties
Scenario based training using Simunitions marking cartridges – “force on force” training
Less Lethal Devices Training on Conducted Energy Devices
Less Lethal Device Training on Pepper Spray, Polycarbonate Shield and Velcro Restraining Straps
Tactical Review Sessions for all Uniformed Members of the Service who have discharged their firearm in the line of duty.


http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/tr...m_tatics.shtml
Thirteen days of basic firearms training and semi-annual requal doesn't sound pooly trained to me. Then there is the FATS simulator, FOF training, and various tactical training courses.

The "poorly trained b.s." is getting really old.

Oh! Lest I forget...roll call training.

Ask yourself how your training stacks up before you start flapping your yap or you may be discovered to be an ignorant yahoo.

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Old 02-27-2013, 07:31   #441
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Thirteen days of basic firearms training and semi-annual requal doesn't sound pooly trained to me. Then there is the FATS simulator, FOF training, and various tactical training courses.

The "poorly trained b.s." is getting really old.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
Thanks, happy. I should have included information about their training to provide a more complete picture.

My posts about the NYPD should also have included a clear statement that I wasn't trying to make LEOs look bad. God bless 'em, they deserve bouquets, not criticism. They are just human beings doing a tough job that involves handling a firearm every day.

The annual NYPD report is the only public statistical record I can find regarding NDs. Other police departments probably keep the records as unpublished info. I extracted certain parts to make a point about NDs, but the complete report tells how 35,000 officers keep the peace in our largest city with very little use of their firearms. My apologies to the NYC officers who were characterized in a very narrow, negative way in my posts.

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Old 02-27-2013, 08:46   #442
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Thirteen days of basic firearms training and semi-annual requal doesn't sound pooly trained to me. Then there is the FATS simulator, FOF training, and various tactical training courses.

The "poorly trained b.s." is getting really old.

Oh! Lest I forget...roll call training.

Ask yourself how your training stacks up before you start flapping your yap or you may be discovered to be an ignorant yahoo.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy

I'd go even further and suggest that as a group, NYC cops are VERY well trained, especially when compared to "average" or even "advanced" civilian firearms users (of course, there are exceptions among both police and civilians). This makes PhotoFeller's point even more persuasive: Even with extensive training, and even with the hard "New York trigger", NDs are a relatively high-probability risk when carrying firearms in C1. NYPD accepts this risk and probably considers it substantially less serious than the risk cops face daily interacting with their scumbag "clients."

To reply to couple of other posters: Anyone who says "ND is never going to happen to me because I am more alert, better trained, and have more common sense than everyone else, and thus I'll keep my gun in C1 under my pillow" is just fooling himself/herself. The same people say they'll never have a car accident... until they do. And even then they come up with some lame excuse for what happened and go back to texting, eating doritos, and jerking off while driving... Sorry for the language, but I just can't stand when my position is insulted by someone who clearly spent less than 0.5 seconds thinking about this issue.
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:47   #443
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Thanks, happy. I should have included information about their training to provide a more complete picture.

My posts about the NYPD should also have included a clear statement that I wasn't trying to make LEOs look bad. God bless 'em, they deserve bouquets, not criticism. They are just human beings doing a tough job that involves handling a firearm every day.

The annual NYPD report is the only public statistical record I can find regarding NDs. Other police departments probably keep the records as unpublished info. I extracted certain parts to make a point about NDs, but the complete report tells how 35,000 officers keep the peace in our largest city with very little use of their firearms. My apologies to the NYC officers who were characterized in a very narrow, negative way in my posts.
My point is that these guys are indeed very well trained and yet they still make mistakes that lead to AD's.

It's an attention/human problem and no one is 100%, 100% of the time. The more safeties you add to a weapon the greater the likelyhood one of them will save you from yourself but there is a point of diminishing returns.

I personally don't see anything wrong with a Commonolli safety.

My personal favorite carry guns are my H&K P7 (probably one of the safest guns to carry ever made and the only auto I am confortable carrying AIWB), my S&W 442, and I am returning to carrying a 1911 after a long hiatus as well.

I'm not getting rid of any Glocks though and will continue to carry them in C1 when they are carried, but to paraphase Bugs Bunny I will be, "veery veery careful."

Just one mans random opinion.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:08   #444
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Lets make it slightly more complicated.

Carrying with one in the chamber while not being a LEO and being all gungho about it on a recorded public forum that is easily searchable, would that create a fertile discovery for a Prosecutor who wants to prove that you're a man with a readied gun LOOKing for a fight, that you're no longer in defensive mode??



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Not only that, but hurting someone as a result of NDing your weapon will definitely portray you as a gungho who shouldn't be carrying any sort of weapon, and will likely "earn" you couple of years in the slammer.
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:11   #445
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This statement was made by a Georgia resident following a December 2012 negligent discharge in his car:

"In closing, please don't be complacent. The posts I see about negligent discharges are full of flippant “keep your booger hook off the bang switch” type remarks. While I totally agree, this confidence can be deadly. Don't ever think you are good enough or experienced enough or smart enough. NEVER EVER EVER think, “that will never happen to me”. This makes you inherently less cautious. We should instead say, “oh wow, I need to be extra vigilant in my safety practices so that never happens to me”. Be humble and be safe."

In January 2012, this guy had a negligent discharge in his home as he prepared to clean his handgun:

"On the bright side (if there is a bright side to this) nobody was injured, aside from my powder burn which I take as a small reminder. Also, this is going to make me so much more vigilant about gun safety. I now have a plan detailing when and where I will field strip my weapons. As bad as this negligent discharge was, it could have been worse. Having had it is going to make me a better gun owner because now I know for sure that it can happen to me, I am not immune to stupid. If I allow myself to get complacent again, it will happen again, and this time it may not be my wall that stops the bullet."

These are intelligent (judging from the way their statements read), responsible, caring civilians who made a tragic mistake due to the inherent imperfection of human beings. That's the only point here, and these aren't abstract, hard-to-find testimonials.

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Old 02-27-2013, 10:46   #446
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I respect your decision, even though I disagree with it. But I do have a serious question that you didn't answer: If you were carrying a revolver, would you leave the first staged chamber empty because of fear of an ND?
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:19   #447
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I respect your decision, even though I disagree with it. But I do have a serious question that you didn't answer: If you were carrying a revolver, would you leave the first staged chamber empty because of fear of an ND?
I used to carry a revolver, mostly while I was hunting, and I loaded all 6 holes. My S&W 357s have a long trigger pull and a pull weight from the factory of about 12 lbs., I think. My belt holsters have a snap-down retention strap behind the hammer; I was conservative then, too.

If I were to carry a revolver today, it wouldn't be for self defense; revolvers are more difficult to conceal and my steel frame guns are pretty heavy. If I do carry one in the woods, I probably would not leave a chamber empty. I'm conflicted about that answer a little bit because it seems to fly in the face of my stated concern about carrying Glocks C1.

Somehow, the revolver platform seems inherently safer than Glocks, and the trigger operation is longer and heavier. When the trigger pull starts, the cylinder starts to rotate and the hammer moves rearward, providing visible cues immediately that the firing mechanism is being operated.

I understand where you're going, and I'm trying to be responsive. Let me say this: I'll do whatever I think is necessary to be safe with a revolver under the circumstances. To be perfectly honest, I haven't thought much about revolver carry mode.

Thanks for the way you phrased your question. I'll be happy to have some more discussion about it, and I'd like to hear your reaction to my answer.

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Old 02-27-2013, 11:33   #448
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I've been carrying since 1999, and if there isn't one in the chamber....that means the magazine is empty.


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Old 02-27-2013, 11:53   #449
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Thanks for the honest answer. I wasn't trying to trap you in some kind of logic trap with the revolver question, I was just really curious.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:54   #450
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When I first decided to carry a concealed weapon in public, it was a big deal.
I think we SHOULD think of it as a big deal, even if it comes natural to us.
I carried NO ROUND in the chamber. Probably for a couple of years, happily.

For some, like me, carrying a gun was a real process. Feel free to carry concealed WITHOUT a round chambered. It is a fine way to keep a gun handy at home as well.

Just keep practicing and learning and doing what is safe and makes sense on this...
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There is a destiny that makes us brothers, none goes his way alone...
All that we send into the lives of others, comes back into our own.
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42