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Old 02-07-2013, 18:27   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NMOFT View Post
1. Safety is not a mechanical device it is an attitude backed up with good habits.
2. If you treat all firearms as if they are always loaded all the time then it doesn’t matter if the mechanical device that blocks the firing mechanism is engaged or not.
3. “Complacency Kills” is not an internet cliché, it’s a literal truth and I’ve seen it happen it the most literal way possible
4. No matter how many times you’ve had the discussion safety is always worth discussing.
5. Some of you don’t post responses, you write novels.
6. I wish I could take some of you guys to work with me. You might gain a whole new perspective on safety and you’d probably have a pretty good time as well.
You have my strong agreement that "complacency kills". That applies to everything we do that has an element of danger.

The occupational safety slogan "SAFETY FIRST" means just what it says. Safety must come before speed, doing the job cheaper, meeting production targets or budget constraints, to satisfy the boss, to clock out sooner. I was responsible for safety in a dangerous business, so I, too, have seen the devistating consequences of complacency. This safety slogan applies to handling firearms as much as any highly dangerous occupation.

My disagreement with your position is you believe training and attentiveness are more powerful than our human tendencies. You are comfortable saying that attitude and good habits will overcome the fact that we are imperfect beings in an imperfect world. Despite having a top-notch occupational safety program where safety is always the highest priority and safety training is continuous, people still get hurt on the job...and worse...because they're human.

If I was capable of always performing flawlessly, I could handle any firearm under any circumstances without any safety device or carrying C3. Then we could stop having this discussion.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-07-2013 at 18:44..
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Old 02-07-2013, 23:16   #262
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A loaded Glock is just as safe as a DO revolver, and safer than a 1911 cocked and locked. IMHO Just make sure it's in a good holster and not tucked in your waistband or lying in a coat pocket, that could be bad. RE-holstering in some IWB holsters have the potential for a trigger snag, so exercise caution.

BTW The discharge you're worried about is a negligent discharge, not an accidental one. There is a difference.

I felt a little uncomfortable about a hot gun when I first got a CCW, mostly because of my hunting experience. When I'm in the field hunting deer I never carry a round in the chamber. That's because of an old Remington 700 I had that had a bad habit of firing occasionally when the safety was switched off. That is an accidental discharge. It broke me of the habit of carrying with a round in.
But once I got comfortable with the fact that a glock trigger mechanism is basically like a D.O. revolver, (and I had packed plenty of them around with 6 chambers loaded) I quit worrying about it.
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:17   #263
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Originally Posted by FloorPoor View Post
A loaded Glock is just as safe as a DO revolver, and safer than a 1911 cocked and locked. IMHO Just make sure it's in a good holster and not tucked in your waistband or lying in a coat pocket, that could be bad. RE-holstering in some IWB holsters have the potential for a trigger snag, so exercise caution.
First you state how a Glock is "just as safe as a DO revolver" and then you go on to list all the exceptions to your statement.

Personally I would not hesitate to drop my S&W 442 in a coat pocket but I can't concieve of doing the same with a C1 Glock.

They are not even remotely the same and you did a great job of illustrating why.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:34   #264
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Originally Posted by happyguy View Post
First you state how a Glock is "just as safe as a DO revolver" and then you go on to list all the exceptions to your statement.

Personally I would not hesitate to drop my S&W 442 in a coat pocket but I can't concieve of doing the same with a C1 Glock.

They are not even remotely the same and you did a great job of illustrating why.

Regards,
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YES!

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Old 02-08-2013, 05:50   #265
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YES!

('Comrade Happyguy'! Wazzup?)
I'm just trying to blend in and avoid bringing attention to myself what with the results of the last election and all.

Have a great day comrade Arc Angel!

Regards,
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:35   #266
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That's it! I'm done.
As with your other posts in this thread, all well thought out and articulated points. I agree with some, disagree with others, but in both cases, appreciate the well reasoned and respectful dialogue.
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:48   #267
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I've been following this thread carefully, and I admit it was thought provoking and extremely interesting. So, here's my attempt to sum up the well-reasoned arguments and connect common themes presented in this thread, and also I want to offer some personal thoughts on various issues repeatedly brought up in this thread.

1. Glock CCW C1 or C3? It depends. As unsatisfying as this answer is, it is probably the most useful. What does it depend on?

A. Your personal threat assessment.

Here are some examples:

If you are a LEO or military operating in highly dangerous environments and regularly encountering deadly threats - C1 is appropriate. What perhaps is also appropriate is a bullet-proof vest, having weapon in your hand, and having a rifle/shotgun as a primary weapon. (It seems that most experts, such as firearms instructors we come in contact with most often, come from this sort of background. For them C1 made sense throughout their career, and they internalized C1 so thoroughly, that they cannot see any other way of carrying as an acceptable alternative, and thus cannot recommend anything but C1 to their students. Based on their life experiences, this totally makes sense. However, threat levels vary for different people, and different carry options make more/less sense for different people. So, we should respect opinions of experts, but also be mindful of how these opinions were formed.)

If you are an average Joe living in relatively safe area, than C3 would be wiser. Here risk of deadly encounter is much smaller than the risk of ND/AD. But a combat mindset and elevated situational awareness must be employed to avoid situations when you are unable to react to threat and have yourself get injured before being able to draw, rack, and point your weapon. Close-quarter combat training will also be useful to achieve the latter goal.

If you are an average Joe living in very unsafe area, where encountering deadly threat is very likely, than you should strongly consider C1. Of course, C1 will not compensate fully for lack of combat mindset, proper situational awareness, and lack of closer-quarter combat training. Although, C1 might give you some edge.

If you are an average Joe carrying your glock when hiking or using it for home defense, C3 is a wise choice.

B. Your level of training. Obsessive attention and concern for safety is a must. Repeatedly following safety rules and hardwiring them into one's brain is a must. Thorough training where you handle your weapon under stress is a must. Learning to respect your weapon and learning to treat it as a rattle snake is a useful mindset. This is essential for C3. This is ABSOLUTELY essential for C1.

C. Your assessment of your level of complacency (complacency, ironically, can stem from extensive training and habitual handling of your weapon). Some people cut themselves routinely with knives by accident. Some people have many auto accidents. Some people get lost in thought and are forgetful by nature. If you are one of these people, do not carry in C3. I'd go even further and say, consider not owning a firearm. The last point might be controversial here, but I wanted to put it out there for people who are currently not gun owners and who are reading this thread.

2. Method of carrying (C1 v. C3) should not be thought of as static, and you should modify it based on changing conditions.

If you are an average Joe who uses glock for home defense and keeps it in C3 - it might be wise to rack the slide and put the gun in C1 if you hear suspicious noise in the middle of the night.

If you are an average Joe who works in a dangerous area, but lives in a relatively safe area, and who carries in C1, - it might be wise to put your glock in C3 when you get back home from work.

If you are an average Joe living and working in a very safe area, but on rare occasions you must go to very unsafe areas - you might want to put your glock temporarily into C1 when you are in those unsafe areas and increase your level of awareness of the increased danger of your weapon.

Whatever method you switch from or switch to, treat the gun as a rattle snake that will hurt you if you lose your concentration or become complacent. Also, practice with all the methods you might conceivably want to opt for (in case of glock, it's probably C1 and C3).

3. A gun is inherently more dangerous than a knife. A knife is inherently more dangerous than a screwdriver. A screwdriver is inherently more dangerous than a pen with pointed end. A pen with pointed end is inherently more dangerous than a shoe. Guns are inherently dangerous. Accept it, and don't get hung up with political arguments. This point might be made by liberals more often than by conservatives, but it doesn't mean this point is false. Yes, guns do not kill by themselves. But, a handgun is inherently more dangerous (dangerous to the enemy, and dangerous to the user) than a hammer or a cooking spoon. That's why police and military (and, yes, BGs) carry guns instead of hammers or cooking spoons. And that's why safety is more emphasized during firearms training, and not emphasized so much during karate sticks training, for example. Similarly, one method of carrying a gun (C0 or C1) is inherently more dangerous than another method (C3). Changing from one method of carry (C3) to another (C1) changes the inherent nature of one's weapon by making it more lethal to adversary, but also making it more dangerous to the user and people near the user. Yes, you should also include human action into the safety equation; but do not lose track of the inherent properties of the tool/technology we are using. Both, the tool and the technique of handling the tool equally powerfully influence one's safety and lethality. Being mindful of that will make one more capable/responsible gun owner.

Once again, this has been a very useful discussion, and it helped me see the issues more clearly. Thanks all who participated in a rational and substantive manner. Cheers!
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Last edited by vandros; 02-10-2013 at 08:33..
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:20   #268
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Vandros- You're obviously here to learn and you have an open mind. I sincerely hope others who followed this thread understand the possible consequences of their CC choices and weigh their decisions carefully, as you are doing.

Carrying a firearm is very, very serious business. Research and careful thought, training and practice, understanding the law and personal accountability, mental and physical conditioning, good judgement and situational awareness, and fully appreciating the lethality of our weapons are only part of the necessary learning process. Foremost, in my opinion, is that SAFETY comes FIRST. I'm glad you're on that track, and I hope many others follow.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-08-2013 at 10:27..
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:55   #269
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Interesting post. I'll add a few personal thoughts of my own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vandros View Post
I've been following this thread carefully, and I admit it was thought provoking and extremely interesting. So, here's my attempt to sum up the well-reasoned arguments and connect common themes presented in this thread, and also I want to offer some personal thoughts on various issues repeatedly brought up in this thread.

1. Glock CCW C1 or C3? It depends. As unsatisfying as this answer is, it is probably the most useful. What does it depend on?

A. Your personal threat assessment.

Here are some examples:

If you are a LEO or military operating in highly dangerous environments and regularly encountering deadly threats - C1 is appropriate. What perhaps is also appropriate is a bullet-proof vest, having weapon in your hand, and having a rifle/shotgun as a primary weapon. (It seems that most experts, such as firearms instructors we come in contact with most often, come from this sort of background. For them C1 made sense throughout their career, and they internalized C1 so thoroughly, that they cannot see any other way of carrying as an acceptable alternative, and thus cannot recommend anything but C1 to their students. Based on their life experiences, this totally makes sense. However, threat levels vary for different people, and different carry options make more/less sense for different people. So, we should respect opinions of experts, but also be mindful of how these opinions were formed.)

If you are an average Joe living in relatively safe area, than C3 would be wiser. Here risk of deadly encounter is much smaller than the risk of ND/AD. But a combat mindset and elevated situational awareness must be employed to avoid situations when you are unable to react to threat and have yourself get injured before being able to draw, rack, and point your weapon. Close-quarter combat training will also be useful to achieve the latter goal.

If you are an average Joe living in very unsafe area, where encountering deadly threat is very likely, than you should strongly consider C1. Of course, C1 will not compensate fully for lack of combat mindset, proper situational awareness, and lack of closer-quarter combat training. Although, C1 might give you some edge.

If you are an average Joe carrying your glock when hiking or using it for home defense, C3 is a wise choice.
While when traveling in a very dangerous area, the need for C1 becomes more apparent, but there are many, many examples of people in non-dangerous areas that have been attacked.

While the choice between C1 and C3 has many factors that should be considered, I think the "this is a safer area" mentality is questionable. You don't need to defend yourself in that safer area until you do. That's the whole reason you are still carrying a defensive weapon in the "safer area."

Quote:
B. Your level of training. Obsessive attention and concern for safety is a must. Repeatedly following safety rules and hardwiring them into one's brain is a must. Thorough training where you handle your weapon under stress is a must. Learning to respect your weapon and learning to treat it as a rattle snake is a useful mindset. This is essential for C3. This is ABSOLUTELY essential for C1.
I couldn't disagree more on the last two sentences. That should read:

"This is ABSOLUTELY essential for C3. This is ABSOLUTELY essential for C1."

Now, I don't think the rattlesnake analogy is quite right, but that's nitpicking. The issue is that EVERY gun, whether or not you "think" you are currently in C3 or not, should be treated exactly the same. Unless you seconds earlier, visually and physically confirmed no round is chambered, then you should treat that gun as if it's C1. Period.

Whether in C1 or C3, you MUST, absolutely MUST, use the same exact safety precautions. This is the whole reason that we hear the old timers, instructors and others talk about more people have been accidentally shot/killed with unloaded guns than loaded ones.


Quote:
2. Method of carrying (C1 v. C3) should not be thought of as static, and you should modify it based on changing conditions.

If you are an average Joe who uses glock for home defense and keeps it in C3 - it might be wise to rack the slide and put the gun in C1 if you hear suspicious noise.

If you are an average Joe who works in a dangerous area, but lives in a relatively safe area, and who carries in C1, - it might be wise to put your glock in C3 when you get back home from work.

If you are an average Joe living and working in a very safe area, but on rare occasions you must go to very unsafe areas - you might want to put your glock temporarily into C1 when you are in those unsafe areas and increase your level of awareness of the increased danger of your weapon.
When using this way of carrying, you must remember that the most likely time for an accidental/negligent discharge is during loading/unloading of your weapon. If you routinely are chambering/unchambering rounds, possible in the car while trying to remain inconspicous, you are GREATLY increasing your chances of a negligent discharge.

For instance, if your every day carry stays C1 in it's holster, except when shooting at the range, and every day you take the holster off at night and put it back on in the morning, there is something along the lines of zero percent chance of an accidental discharge.

On the other hand, if you are routinely chambering and unchambering rounds, depending on where you might be traveling that day, you are increasing the chances of having a negligent/accidental discharge.

The "rattlesnake" can't go off by itself, when it's in holster. It can only go off when you are handling it and not doing so properly.
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Old 02-08-2013, 13:16   #270
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There are various ways of evaluating mode of carry, and those have been well explained here.

Given my bias for safety first, I believe a reasonable final test for one's conclusions about carry mode is: If I ever experience a ND that kills or injures someone, can I say that I did everything reasonably possible to carry my firearm safely? Whether we're thinking about the weight of someone's death on our conscience or the legal consequences of such an incident, accountability rests squarely on our shoulders.

There is merit in concern raised about changing carry mode from C3 to C1 at times of high alert, then shifting back to C3 when the perceived danger passes. Thats a practice I will probably abandon, even though it rarely happens, in order to be consistent and avoid the additional handling required. The back-and-forth mode changes violate my final test for safe handling as expressed above. It would be a small adjustment on my part because it happens so infrequently, but it would be a process improvement nonetheless.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-08-2013 at 13:47..
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Old 02-08-2013, 13:36   #271
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There are various ways of evaluating mode of carry, and those have been well explained here.

Given my bias for safety first, I believe a reasonable final test for one's conclusions about carry mode is: If I ever experience a ND that kills or injures someone, can I say that I did everything reasonably possible to carry my firearm safely? Whether we're thinking about the weight of someone's death on our conscience or the legal consequences of such an event, accountability rests squarely on our shoulders.

There is merit in concern raised about changing carry mode from C3 to C1 at times of high alert, then shifting back to C3 when the perceived danger passes. Thats a practice I will probably abandon, even though it rarely happens, just to be consistent. The mode change violates my final test for safe handling as expressed above.
I used to keep my G19 at the bedside, C3. If I heard a noise or otherwise felt I needed to check the house, I would chamber a round, often after having woken up in the middle of the night, check the house, and then when I found all was well, I dropped the mag, unchambered the round, and then reloaded that round in the mag. I created multiple opportunities, while having just woken up and having adrenaline running, to have an accidental discharge.

I am not strong believer that whichever method you choose, you should stay in that mode and only change when you absolutely have to and of course at the range. You can eliminate chambering/unchambering, such as when you are cleaning/lubing your gun, etc. However, routinely doing so, creates opportunities for accidents that having a holstered (C1 or C3) weapon prevent.
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Old 02-08-2013, 15:44   #272
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Interesting post. I'll add a few personal thoughts of my own.



While when traveling in a very dangerous area, the need for C1 becomes more apparent, but there are many, many examples of people in non-dangerous areas that have been attacked.

While the choice between C1 and C3 has many factors that should be considered, I think the "this is a safer area" mentality is questionable. You don't need to defend yourself in that safer area until you do. That's the whole reason you are still carrying a defensive weapon in the "safer area."



I couldn't disagree more on the last two sentences. That should read:

"This is ABSOLUTELY essential for C3. This is ABSOLUTELY essential for C1."

Now, I don't think the rattlesnake analogy is quite right, but that's nitpicking. The issue is that EVERY gun, whether or not you "think" you are currently in C3 or not, should be treated exactly the same. Unless you seconds earlier, visually and physically confirmed no round is chambered, then you should treat that gun as if it's C1. Period.

Whether in C1 or C3, you MUST, absolutely MUST, use the same exact safety precautions. This is the whole reason that we hear the old timers, instructors and others talk about more people have been accidentally shot/killed with unloaded guns than loaded ones.




When using this way of carrying, you must remember that the most likely time for an accidental/negligent discharge is during loading/unloading of your weapon. If you routinely are chambering/unchambering rounds, possible in the car while trying to remain inconspicous, you are GREATLY increasing your chances of a negligent discharge.

For instance, if your every day carry stays C1 in it's holster, except when shooting at the range, and every day you take the holster off at night and put it back on in the morning, there is something along the lines of zero percent chance of an accidental discharge.

On the other hand, if you are routinely chambering and unchambering rounds, depending on where you might be traveling that day, you are increasing the chances of having a negligent/accidental discharge.

The "rattlesnake" can't go off by itself, when it's in holster. It can only go off when you are handling it and not doing so properly.
I agree that consistency is VERY valuable for safe gun handling. I would only go from C3 to C1 on very rare occasions - perhaps when going from condition "orange" to "red". If such occasions become frequent (more than once per month) - I should be considering using C1 all the time. But if such occasions are infrequent, then I wouldn't worry about it, just as I am OK chambering/unchambering carefully on shooting range or people carrying in C1 unchambering/chambering when cleaning the gun. But, if I have my gun at C3 by my bed, and hear noise, I think it will be smart to chamber a round when you realize the noise is very abnormal/suspicious and likely coming from intruder.

As for your criticism of my recommendation for training, I have probably not explained my point clearly enough. I was trying to say that everyone using C3 must ALWAYS follow all safety precautions and treat the gun as if loaded (plus finger off trigger until ready to fire, plus using reinforced target even when dryfiring, plus never pointing the gun at anything one isn't willing to destroy, plus all other needed rules). But, persons carrying in C1 must be even more alert when carrying and when training - as they are handling objectively more dangerous tool. I'm not saying C3 is completely safe. I'm saying that C1 is objectively less safe when carrying/practicing than C3, keeping all other factors constant.

Finally, my rattlesnake analogy is meant to inspire proper and healthy respect and appreciation for our glocks' lethality. As with any analogy, it is not perfect, but it makes the point of never relaxing or becoming complacent around guns, even when one has been extensively trained and follows all the proper protocols. One should never feel that tens of thousands of hours of perfect practice allow one to relax around guns - this is a dangerous mindset of many young (and sometimes old) gun owners, of our young soldiers, and LEOs that inevitably leads to ADs and NDs).
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Old 02-08-2013, 17:44   #273
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I agree that consistency is VERY valuable for safe gun handling. I would only go from C3 to C1 on very rare occasions - perhaps when going from condition "orange" to "red". If such occasions become frequent (more than once per month) - I should be considering using C1 all the time. But if such occasions are infrequent, then I wouldn't worry about it, just as I am OK chambering/unchambering carefully on shooting range or people carrying in C1 unchambering/chambering when cleaning the gun. But, if I have my gun at C3 by my bed, and hear noise, I think it will be smart to chamber a round when you realize the noise is very abnormal/suspicious and likely coming from intruder.

As for your criticism of my recommendation for training, I have probably not explained my point clearly enough. I was trying to say that everyone using C3 must ALWAYS follow all safety precautions and treat the gun as if loaded (plus finger off trigger until ready to fire, plus using reinforced target even when dryfiring, plus never pointing the gun at anything one isn't willing to destroy, plus all other needed rules). But, persons carrying in C1 must be even more alert when carrying and when training - as they are handling objectively more dangerous tool. I'm not saying C3 is completely safe. I'm saying that C1 is objectively less safe when carrying/practicing than C3, keeping all other factors constant.

Finally, my rattlesnake analogy is meant to inspire proper and healthy respect and appreciation for our glocks' lethality. As with any analogy, it is not perfect, but it makes the point of never relaxing or becoming complacent around guns, even when one has been extensively trained and follows all the proper protocols. One should never feel that tens of thousands of hours of perfect practice allow one to relax around guns - this is a dangerous mindset of many young (and sometimes old) gun owners, of our young soldiers, and LEOs that inevitably leads to ADs and NDs).
The only thing I would add is that from a laziness factor, and ALL humans are inherently mentally lazy to one degree or another, C3 is in fact more dangerous. A person carrying C3 is doing so because it is 'safer', because he is carrying an unloaded gun. As I mentioned, the old timers always tell us about more AD's being from unloaded guns than loaded guns.

Anyway, I in no way want to try and convince someone that is more comfortable with C3 than C1 to switch. I'm simply pointing out that C1 is not more dangerous, and it can be argued for many of the reasons I mentioned earlier, that it is less dangerous (far less chambering/unchambering & being lulled into proper gun safety laziness because your gun is unchambered). Nobody should rest easy because they are carrying C3 (especially if they are routinely switching between C1 and C3, which is by FAR the most likely time to have an AD/ND). Instead, every gun, unless you visually and physically inspected it seconds before, should be treated as loaded, in EVERY respect.

Also, for those of you that feel the need to switch between C1 and C3 regularly, be sure you have a very sound technique for doing so.
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Old 02-09-2013, 03:00   #274
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All we are doing is trying to stack the odds in our favor as much as we can. Bad guys already have way more experience in real combat situations than your average person so they know how to stack those odds in theirs.

Also, they know more people are carrying. You can bet though, they are not going to give up their career.

When it comes right down to it, if someone attacking is close enough to you, odds are not in your favor no matter how you carry your gun.
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Old 02-09-2013, 06:53   #275
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All we are doing is trying to stack the odds in our favor as much as we can. Bad guys already have way more experience in real combat situations than your average person so they know how to stack those odds in theirs.

Also, they know more people are carrying. You can bet though, they are not going to give up their career.

When it comes right down to it, if someone attacking is close enough to you, odds are not in your favor no matter how you carry your gun.
Yep...
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Old 02-09-2013, 07:47   #276
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All these words, but let us amateurs not forget "I'm the only one in this room professional enough........"


Youthful hubris brings special recognition, so remember shiz happens. Maybe Glocks really need a magazine disconnect?
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Old 02-09-2013, 11:20   #277
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Carrying without one in the chamber is just as bad as not having the gun when you need it in my opinion. I have seen too many videos of good guys getting popped 3-4 times before they can even get the first round in the chamber. I always carry one in the chamber. Glock has an excellent safety and that is the trigger. Keep your finger off of it until you need it there.
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Old 02-09-2013, 15:07   #278
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All these words, but let us amateurs not forget "I'm the only one in this room professional enough........"

DEA Agent Shoots Himself - YouTube

Youthful hubris brings special recognition, so remember shiz happens. Maybe Glocks really need a magazine disconnect?
Lots of words have been offered in this thread...some for, some against C1 with Glock pistols. This thread has been uncommonly civil and it has had 9,000 views; a fair number of people are interested in this important debate.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-14-2013 at 09:11..
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Old 02-09-2013, 15:15   #279
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Just tell the bad guy to wait a second so you can draw and rack your slide.
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Old 02-09-2013, 15:32   #280
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Here is what you want to shoot for...


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