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Old 02-14-2013, 18:57   #301
PhotoFeller
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Originally Posted by NolePhin View Post
Just found this interesting article.

http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.c...ry-or-why.html
The author of this article was a regular participant here at GT for a long time. Where did David Armstrong disappear to?

David's piece on C1 vs. C3 is honest and compelling, in my opinion. Thanks for bringing it up.
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Old 02-15-2013, 04:42   #302
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The Glock 'safety' concept still escapes me. How is it that a safety can prevent an AD or ND (the purpose of a safety) if it is disengaged by putting rearward pressure on the trigger? Please explain.
That's why I believe a chambered Glock should be considered C-0. Drop safe yes but there is nothing to prevent the accidental pull of the trigger.
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:26   #303
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
The Glock 'safety' concept still escapes me. How is it that a safety can prevent an AD or ND (the purpose of a safety) if it is disengaged by putting rearward pressure on the trigger? Please explain.
Like Jeff Cooper said, "It's like writing the combination on the safe door."

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Old 02-15-2013, 07:29   #304
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Like Jeff Cooper said, "It's like writing the combination on the safe door."

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
Happy - I'm missing your point here. My question about the Glock 'safety' isn't meant to be sarcastic or loaded in any way. I'm just hard pressed to call it a safety in the sense I've understood firearm safeties for 50 years.

The only way the trigger safety works on a Glock is if pressure is applied only to the outside trigger levers. The center lever disengages the safety for firing. This is the reason folks always say 'the safety is the shooter's brain, which keeps their finger off of the trigger'.

I believe its misleading to inexperienced shooters to imply the Glock trigger mechanism is a safety that prevents unintended trigger pulls. I'm just trying to be factual (truthful). PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong about this point.

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Old 02-15-2013, 08:02   #305
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Once again it is really simple. Strictly adhere to the safety rules, and keep your finger off the trigger until your on target and ready to destroy something. If your finger is on the trigger and you discharge the gun without intending to do so, that is not an accident, it is negligence. Some people are being willful in their disregard of this fact! Carriage and use of firearms require a heightened level of awareness and discipline. Those that require a mechanical device to make up for deficiencies in these areas, as well as lack of common sense are dangerous, and better serve themselves and others, by finding non lethal means of self defense.

Best
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:37   #306
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Originally Posted by D.S.Brown View Post
Once again it is really simple. Strictly adhere to the safety rules, and keep your finger off the trigger until your on target and ready to destroy something. If your finger is on the trigger and you discharge the gun without intending to do so, that is not an accident, it is negligence. Some people are being willful in their disregard of this fact! Carriage and use of firearms require a heightened level of awareness and discipline. Those that require a mechanical device to make up for deficiencies in these areas, as well as lack of common sense are dangerous, and better serve themselves and others, by finding non lethal means of self defense.

Best
Dave
I understand your statement, Dave, but it seems to skirt the issue of whether or not Glock's trigger safety is, in fact, a safety. That's the issue of the moment. What say you?

While I'm thinking about your position (mechanical safety devices shouldn't be counted on to make up for personal deficiencies and lack of common sense), please consider how your advice applies to a chambered, cocked 1911. Is mental discipline and common sense all one needs to carry safely in Condition-0 every day in a proper holster and perform whatever administrative handling one needs to do ? Is the ability to keep one's finger off of the trigger all thats necessary? Or is a mechanical safety device appropriate for 1911s?

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-15-2013 at 08:53..
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Old 02-15-2013, 14:53   #307
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My thoughts as a trainer regarding the safeties on a 1911 are as follows:

1.) Due to the fact that the design was engineered to be carried in condition 1, (bullet in the chamber, hammer cocked, and thumb safety engaged), the palm safety and the thumb safety were included as a redundancy in the event the weapon was dropped, an accidental discharge would not occur.

2.) The safeties were not included to mitigate against poor gun handling.

At the end of the day no safety or condition of carry takes the place of proper gun handling, and adherance to the safety rules.

As to the Glocks trigger safety no I don't think it is a safety in the same way as a 1911 thumb safety.

In the end the only way to prevent a negligent discharge is to be disciplined and conscientious of keeping the finger off the trigger. Anyone that uses the trigger as a finger rest while manipulating the gun without intending to fire is a negligent discharge waiting to happen. Kind of like riding a motorcycle, it's not "if" you're going to fall, but when.

Best,

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Old 02-15-2013, 15:32   #308
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I EDCC a Gen 2 G23 hot and ready to go if the need ever arises. Carrying a cold weapon for self defense is pointless. Should you need to defend yourself you will have to operate the slide and chamber a round not only does this take precious seconds where seconds matter but it is a very distinct sound if you are needing to be silent. Having a good holster that completely covers the trigger is a must for any gun that is to be carried. You must also be comfortable carrying and using the gun. Train and make it second nature to handle and unholster your gun from where you carry. The gun will not go off unless you pull the trigger. A heavier trigger pull may be a good idea for those that are afraid of AD. There is always a risk when carrying a loaded weapon the key to safety is like I said, good holster, training and familiarity of the gun. The problem with training to draw from the holster is that some gun ranges will not allow a holster weapon on the range, weird I know but they do it for safety.
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Old 02-15-2013, 16:13   #309
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Old 02-15-2013, 17:09   #310
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Originally Posted by D.S.Brown View Post
My thoughts as a trainer regarding the safeties on a 1911 are as follows:

1.) Due to the fact that the design was engineered to be carried in condition 1, (bullet in the chamber, hammer cocked, and thumb safety engaged), the palm safety and the thumb safety were included as a redundancy in the event the weapon was dropped, an accidental discharge would not occur.

2.) The safeties were not included to mitigate against poor gun handling.

At the end of the day no safety or condition of carry takes the place of proper gun handling, and adherance to the safety rules.

As to the Glocks trigger safety no I don't think it is a safety in the same way as a 1911 thumb safety.

In the end the only way to prevent a negligent discharge is to be disciplined and conscientious of keeping the finger off the trigger. Anyone that uses the trigger as a finger rest while manipulating the gun without intending to fire is a negligent discharge waiting to happen. Kind of like riding a motorcycle, it's not "if" you're going to fall, but when.

Best,

Dave
Thanks, Dave.

I thought 1911 safeties were included in the design to make the pistol safer for members of the military to carry/use.

I think most 1911 owners today use the thumb safety to prevent an unintended discharge during normal handling.

If you had a student learning to CC with a 1911, how would you advise him to carry it? Would you teach that keeping his finger off of the trigger is adequate to prevent a ND? Or would you recommend using the thumb safety?
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Old 02-15-2013, 19:09   #311
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I always advise students to carry the gun in the manner it was engineered to be carried in, so for 1911's a round chambered, hammer cocked, and thumb safety engaged.

The above is the best way to avoid unintentional discharges. Finger off the trigger to eliminate negligent discharges.

Best,
Dave
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Old 02-15-2013, 21:48   #312
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
The Glock 'safety' concept still escapes me. How is it that a safety can prevent an AD or ND (the purpose of a safety) if it is disengaged by putting rearward pressure on the trigger? Please explain.
IMHO... (I like the .40's as hunting pistols as far as finishing shots, and the 10mm for any once-in-a-lifetime shots able to made on "stupid game.")

Now, as far as self-defense (hereafter SD): The Glock is hands down the best platform on the market. If you are going to carry an SD firearm in a purse, then skip the Glock, as well as any other semi-auto pistol, as they really aren't suited well for that type of conceal carry.

However, if you are going to utilize a holster for CC, then the Glock is heads and shoulders above all the others as an SD platform.

Lastly, since it is being carried for SD, regardless of how you carry with the exception of not being holstered, then by all means, forever KEEP ONE IN THE TUBE at all times!


Just my $0.02, ymsv,biid,wc.
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Old 02-15-2013, 22:09   #313
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Ugh........

What occurs if you have already been shot in your non-dominant arm?

Please elaborate....

If you have a Glock, and it is in a holster, carry one in the tube folks.
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Old 02-15-2013, 22:23   #314
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How many steps do you want between you and the ability to fire your gun? How many seconds or fractions of seconds do you want to give up against a threat? How safe is your carry method?
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:21   #315
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If you can hold a Glock with one hand, you can easily rack the slide on just about anything, belt, table edge...
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:43   #316
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Originally Posted by SevenSixtyTwo View Post
If you can hold a Glock with one hand, you can easily rack the slide on just about anything, belt, table edge...
Say what?

In all practicality, the need to do that is going to end up not working in a defensive situation, let alone that is crazy talk.

I don't see any effective means at all of not carrying hot, in any case, no matter how mall ninja someone thinks they are. In an SD situation, be it from cover or not, I want to take out my weapon ready, not rack the slide, not ever.
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Old 02-16-2013, 06:51   #317
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Just got my new INCOG In the waist band Holster fro G-Code Tactical Holsters. I now feel 100% confident in keeping a round in the chamber with this holster.

https://www.facebook.com/GCodeHolsters
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Old 02-16-2013, 08:43   #318
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Think about this

I started hunting when I got my first 12ga at thirteen. I have hunted small game and deer, in the state I live. If I went deer hunting without one in the chamber and had to chamber a slug in my shotgun when a deer came into sight, I would be spotted by a deer instantly.

Here's the difference. When someone goes hunting, that person is the hunter, they are constantly looking for the prey, they are not making any noise, their mind is focused, they are ready for action.

With the exception of a small percent of people, maybe one percent or less, most people become COMPLACENT, and are not thinking of attack. Interaction with family, friends, the public, and our sense of purpose for that moment contain most of our attention and focus.

An attacker, is prepared in their mind to commit a crime. Most successful attackers are very good at spotting people who are easy prey. The attacker always has the advantage of making the first move.

With that said, do you feel 100% comfortable not having a round in the chamber. In the unfortunate event that you are attacked you will be taken off guard in such a way that your reaction time and what you do to react, might make the difference between life and death.

Do you feel good with that?

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Old 02-16-2013, 10:35   #319
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Say what?

In all practicality, the need to do that is going to end up not working in a defensive situation, let alone that is crazy talk.

I don't see any effective means at all of not carrying hot, in any case, no matter how mall ninja someone thinks they are. In an SD situation, be it from cover or not, I want to take out my weapon ready, not rack the slide, not ever.
It works quite well. If you're in a bad HDH situation even C-1 or C-0 and due to something interfering with the slide operation like clothes or hands, you might have to rack the slide one handed with whatever you have available to catch the sights on in order to chamber the next round. Nothing crazy about it.
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Old 02-16-2013, 13:35   #320
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Originally Posted by Laslo View Post
I started hunting when I got my first 12ga at thirteen. I have hunted small game and deer, in the state I live. If I went deer hunting without one in the chamber and had to chamber a slug in my shotgun when a deer came into sight, I would be spotted by a deer instantly.

Here's the difference. When someone goes hunting, that person is the hunter, they are constantly looking for the prey, they are not making any noise, their mind is focused, they are ready for action.

With the exception of a small percent of people, maybe one percent or less, most people become COMPLACENT, and are not thinking of attack. Interaction with family, friends, the public, and our sense of purpose for that moment contain most of our attention and focus.

An attacker, is prepared in their mind to commit a crime. Most successful attackers are very good at spotting people who are easy prey. The attacker always has the advantage of making the first move.

With that said, do you feel 100% comfortable not having a round in the chamber. In the unfortunate event that you are attacked you will be taken off guard in such a way that your reaction time and what you do to react, might make the difference between life and death.

Do you feel good with that?

Laslo
Like you, I started hunting small game as a kid, often riding a bicycle to my squirrel hunting woods. My .22 rifle and my shotguns all had a manual safety to help keep me safe with a round in the chamber. I NEVER hunted the woods or fields with my long gun chambered and the safety off...until it was time to put meat in the pot.

If I'm ever surprise-attacked while carrying a Glock C3, I'm willing to accept the consequences. I'm a cautious dude, and I won't take chances that sometimes lead to a dangerous situation.

Will cautious behavior guarantee a sneak attack won't happen? Of course not. Do I feel like my odds of avoiding a surprise attack are very, very high? You betchum Red Ryder!!

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Old 02-17-2013, 12:43   #321
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Hey guys,
I just got my CHL in TX and am deciding how I will carry my G23. I have heard arguments for keeping one in the chamber and keeping all in the clip, and I'm still stuck on the decision. I want y'alls opinions. I feel uneasy carrying one in the chamber as the glock has no external safety, but I don't want to waste time and possibly alert an enemy racking the slide if it ever comes down to it. Help me Glock Talk.
I feel for you. When I first started carrying, having one in the pipe freaked me out too. It took some time, and even changing to a gun that has a safety. Even with the safety I still managed to come close to shooting my bum. A good holster preferably kydex would be your friend if you want to carry hot. I carry hot now and always will. Get some good training and I bet you will get over it. Also being afraid to carry hot might also be a good indication that you highly value life and it makes you realize that you may one day have to really use your gun. The only use of a gun is to kill. Perhaps some martial arts training and a good can of mace would serve you well instead?
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Old 02-17-2013, 21:04   #322
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1) The Glock's safety is in the trigger. Get *very* acquainted with this, and you may find your hesitation will go away. The factory trigger is extremely predictable to the point that you can precisely predict when a bullet will leave the chamber.
2) Solve #1 and you can then leave one in the chamber (called +1). Go to a gun basics class that allows you to bring your own weapon. Follow their rules on how to bring it in, and bring more than the required number of practice rounds. A good class will be small enough you can get personal attention on things that you need it, but won't keep you waiting too long for things you are already comfortable.
3) Spend regular range time with your Glock, and annually take a refresher course, or a step up to further hone your interests and stay sharp. If you don't use it, you can get sloppy.
4) Carrying is more than just a holster. This gets back to the basics class that will introduce you into carry styles and keeping yourself and other safe. Figure out your style and then the holster choices will narrow. I personally draw with my strong arm, from my weak side (aka cross draw style). There's an extra factor of safety in varying situations I have to keep in mind (not just others).

This is the tip of the iceberg but it will help you with your dilemma of comfort.

Glocks are VERY safe. Not that you want to drop one, but accidentally dropping one will not cause a discharge. What you see in the movies is not true if you have seen it to the contrary. That said, you not only have to put your index finger on the safety that's in the trigger, you have to depress it to a point of resistence...and only at that point are you actually engaging the trigger that will fire the weapon. There's some good overall distance that the 5.5lb. trigger allows you to change your mind, and getting acquainted with just this feature will make you confident and in control of your weapon. Until you cover this, I would not carry and would not go to the range without supervision. It's just that critical.

Good luck...once you go through what I mentioned, you will very *very* glad you did!
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Old 02-18-2013, 06:59   #323
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Originally Posted by SevenSixtyTwo View Post
If you can hold a Glock with one hand, you can easily rack the slide on just about anything, belt, table edge...
Please try it sometime... and remember, for the purpose of training, you cannot use your non-dominant hand or arm in any way. Now, try training to put one in the tube with your non-dominant hand only. Remember, use only your non-dominant hand and do not use your dominant hand or arm in any way.

If you're honest, you'll admit that having to first un-holster your gun, and then having to chamber a round would take way too much time given the right "manure"HTF circumstances.

Simply put, if you CC a Glock with a holster, lock and load.
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Last edited by Peace Warrior; 02-18-2013 at 07:00..
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Old 02-18-2013, 07:18   #324
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When seconds count that round better be in the chamber.


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Old 02-18-2013, 08:04   #325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlockFanWA View Post
If carrying one in the chamber of a Glock makes you uneasy, why did you get a Glock?

The Glock has an "external safety", it is called the trigger. Keep your finger off of that safety till you are ready to fire.
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