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Old 02-06-2013, 23:14   #251
unit1069
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Wow, 7 years and there always seems to be one of these threads here......
It's an issue that will never be definitively resolved until technology produces the firearm that eliminates human error. And because sensible people understand how counter-intuitive it is to carry a deadly weapon outside one's comfort level it's always going to be an individual choice.
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Old 02-06-2013, 23:18   #252
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Originally Posted by Three-Five-Seven View Post
A proper holster is an essential piece of the safety mechanism of a Glock pistol.

If, after acquiring a proper holster you still feel uncomfortable, get a trigger block for your Glock.

If you're still uncomfortable after that, you need a Smith & Wesson revolver.
This...quality holster for any gun. Worries averted

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Old 02-06-2013, 23:59   #253
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Originally Posted by NMOFT View Post
Do you treat your "unloaded" Glock any differently than you would a chamber loaded 1911?
I asked you first, thanks.

Remember your points: Carry mode doesn't kill, complacency does, and, C3 breeds complacency while C1 does not.

If one has eliminated human error (complacency) from his gun handling technique and mode doesn't matter, the Glock in C1 and the 1911 in C0 could, theoretically, be carried, drawn, fired, reholstered and handled admistratively with equal safety. Because the 1911 has a grip safety, it even provides a measure of additional protection against a ND. All one has to do is keep his finger off of the trigger of these or any other semi-auto.

Despite the above, I know of no one who recommends civilian, LEO or military carry of 1911s cocked and unlocked.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 02-07-2013 at 03:57..
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Old 02-07-2013, 04:02   #254
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Originally Posted by NMOFT View Post
I agree that it seems intuitive that a pistol in C3 is safer to carry than one in C1, but there’s a fallacy in that line of reasoning. Some of you have cited the fact that even LEO’s with their greater level of training and experience have ND’s and thus C1 carry must be inherently unsafe. In fact a good friend of mine who happens to be an LEO and an experienced gun handler experienced an ND recently that wreaked his hand.
Interesting comments! It’s early morning; I can’t sleep; so I guess I’ll take the time to reply to this one, too: Any pistol routinely kept in C-3 IS inherently safer than another pistol kept in C-1; and this additional safety has little or nothing to do with an individual user’s personal skill level with firearms. Neither is it entirely correct to place all the responsibility for gun safety on the user; nor all of the blame for ND’s upon him, either. Sometimes a gun problem can be mechanical, and have little to do with exactly, ‘How’ the gun was handled.

Mechanical anomalies can happen with: a Glock, a Remington, a Browning, or a Sako firearm. Personally, I’ve had both a Browning, ‘A-5’, and a Sako, ‘Finnbear’ ND on me. I, also, have a little personal experience ND’ing a Glock (one episode); BUT, I’ve certainly read about and heard of numerous other instances of mechanical problems with Glock pistols; AND, I know that a Glock’s trigger mechanism can be induced to, ‘stack’. In fact, I’ve done this myself; and, based on recent changes made on Glock trigger bars, I am certain the factory knows about this, ‘stacking problem’ too.

The expression, ‘inherently unsafe’ actually applies to much more than just the manner in which a firearm is loaded and maintained. When it comes to gun safety there is never an acceptable reason to rationalize that one carry condition is safer than another.

ALL FIREARMS ARE INHERENTLY UNSAFE!

Hence the validity of Cooper’s first rule of firearm safety. Tinker, tailor, soldier, spy, it doesn’t matter who you are, or what you do for a living: Unsafe gun handling is still unsafe gun handling! All any gunman can do is to, ‘play the odds’, and attempt to, ‘stack the deck’ in his favor. THIS is the essential advantage to placing a semiautomatic pistol in C-3 rather than in C-1.

Personal safety with a firearm - especially with a firearm that is frequently carried and handled - is just such a tradeoff. The user, ‘trades off’ several thousand hours of the greater potential lethality entailed in C-1 carry against a possible few seconds of sudden and unexpected (?) dire necessity while carrying in C-3.

There IS some justification for law enforcement personnel to carry their handguns in C-1; however, nobody can convince me that the huge numbers of private citizens who presently carry - just like law enforcement - actually need to do so. In fact there is plenty of evidence to prove that the vast majority of private citizens do NOT need to do so.

I associate, and have associated, with a large number of young gunmen who: carry their Glocks in C-1, remain confident in their gun handling ability, irrationally trust to fate that, ‘nothing’s going to go wrong’, remain instantly ready to, ‘repel all boarders’, and repeatedly take that C-1 pistol with them everywhere they go - Into their cars, and into their homes every single day. Do these fellows REALLY NEED to expose: themselves, their families, and everyone else they come into contact with to such potential danger?

(Here the likelihood of needing an instantly available, ‘one-handed’ pistol should - with a considerate frame of mind - be thoughtfully compared to the real, the definite, risks any C-1 semi-auto poses to EVERYONE in the vicinity.)

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Originally Posted by NMOFT View Post
However, the rest of the story is that the ND happened with an “unloaded” pistol. I think if you averaged the number of hours that cops carry C1 pistols vs. the number of ND’s they suffer you would find the ND rate to be surprisingly low. Maybe lower than the rate of ND’s suffered by non-LEO C3 carriers; and no, I have no data to back up that statement; it’s purely supposition on my part.
That’s it, right there! 'Administratively' there is no such thing as an unloaded firearm! ‘The gun is always loaded.’ CANNOT be only a rule. When properly learned it becomes A HABIT, instead - A habit that a seasoned gunman should never break! Yes, I know of law enforcement personnel who have ND’d their firearms. I, also, know about several children of law enforcement personnel who have ND’d a parent’s firearm, too! (One of these children survived his, ‘ND event’; and his father brought him to me for training. I turned that young man into an excellent rifleman. When he graduated college and got his commission he told me that several of the Army's rifle range instructors had asked him, ‘Where’ he learned to shoot like that!)

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Originally Posted by NMOFT View Post
The point is complacency kills. And complacency is what causes ND’s, not carry mode. And people that habitually carry such as LEO’s will be more vulnerable to complacency than most others.

It seems to me that those with the C3 mindset view pistols as either “safe” to carry or “unsafe” based on whether or not the chamber is loaded. The C3 mindset seems to be “if my carry piece is unloaded I can still make a mistake and not suffer an ND". This breeds complacency and violates one of the four basic rules of gun handling, i.e. “treat all guns as if they are loaded at all times”. You might protest that you do that anyway. Well, if that’s so, then you are just as safe carrying in C1 as in C3.
Nope! I do not agree with the above statement. It might read well on the Internet; but it doesn’t truly reflect reality. Complacency does kill; BUT, the various factors entailed in complacency with a gun are too numerous to support the assertion that the method and mode of carry are not involved. Method and mode of carry ARE both involved! So are mechanical anomalies inherent to the gun, mental lapses in a user’s concentration, and personal physical failures to (consistently) perform as expected. All of these deviations from, ‘life in a perfect world’ can be, and usually are, offset by carrying a pistol in C-3.

Personally, I do not consider anyone who regularly carries his semiautomatic pistol in C-3 to be, ‘less of a man’; BUT, at the same time, I know a whole lot of other people who do. Neither do I consider such a person to be, ‘less ready’ to skillfully defend himself. I’m not just, ‘talking out of my hat', either. I spend a lot of time on isolated public firing ranges. Murders have occurred at some of these ranges! Not being, ‘the new kid on the block’ I do worry about who’s going to be there or show up while I’m using the range. Know what?

THE BRUTAL TRUTH IS THAT IF YOU’RE GOING TO GET IT, YOU’RE GOING TO GET IT; AND THE FACT THAT YOU ARE IN C-1, OR C-3; HAVE TWO GUNS ON YOUR PERSON; OR, ‘CAN SHOOT WITH THE BEST OF THEM’ IS NOT GOING TO SAVE YOU!

Me? I’d rather be lucky; I’d rather be alert; I’d rather possess that unique (perhaps, ‘seasoned’) ability to suddenly, ‘switch mental gears’ and instantly surpass psychological, ‘fright mode’ and pass into a smooth, ‘killing mode’ rather than to just walk around like a thoughtless, inconsiderate, and well-armed goofball who has deluded himself into believing that he’s safer because he’s in C-1.

In my experience NOTHING could be farther from the truth! In varying degrees everyman, ‘walks with God’; some walk more; and some walk less. In the end, however, (and as unpleasant a reality it may be to the conscious mind) NONE of us are actually, ‘masters of our own souls’. We, all, ‘play the percentages’; and, at least to my mind, C-3 carry of a semiautomatic weapon is a safer, more considerate, ‘bet’ for civilian everyday carry. C-3 carry involves far less uncertainty and risk than C-1 carry ever would, or could.

I’ve got a lifetime of shooting experience that has taught me: It’s not how fast you come out of the holster; it’s not how quick you are to fire; using one hand, or two hands does not matter, either. It’s how well - how, 'squarely' - you place your muzzle on COM and take those first two or three shots that really counts. All of these things said:

THERE IS NO ADEQUATE DEFENSE AGAINST SOMEONE WHO EITHER SHOOTS YOU IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD, OR HAS HIS GUN OUT, AND GOING, BEFORE YOU DO.

In this regard every single one of us, ‘walks with God’; and neither C-1, nor C-3 carry is going to have anything to do with the outcome of such a catastrophic event.

Last edited by Arc Angel; 02-08-2013 at 20:50..
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Old 02-07-2013, 06:33   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
It's an issue that will never be definitively resolved until technology produces the firearm that eliminates human error. And because sensible people understand how counter-intuitive it is to carry a deadly weapon outside one's comfort level it's always going to be an individual choice.

Just my take on it, but most ND's occur because someone thought there was not a round in the chamber.

Human faults will never be a 0% possibility. There's a quote out there about people designing fool proof systems underestimating the ingenuity of fools.

The guns are fine, it's people that need to be tweaked.

Carry one in the chamber, carry without one in the chamber, carry with no cartridges at all, don't carry at all, it's a personal choice, do what you think is beat and let everyone else do the same.

Problem solved.
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:38   #256
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Arch Angel,

Amen. If I don't have the time or wits to rack my slide back I wasn't meant to win that day.
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:40   #257
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Thank you for the compliment. (Not, 'left-handed' I hope!) I'm going to treat your reply with the respect that it deserves. (A lot!)

You’re first question specifically alludes to this; doesn’t it:


Notice that I did NOT say anything about people in the general public not going armed. THAT is, indeed, the Socialist, ‘New World Order’ party line. A politically contrived abrogation of my (previously hard won) Constitutional Second Amendment Rights - An abrogation that I find particularly onerous and most strenuously resent.

‘New World Order’ politicians and the highly organized (but covert) national, ‘news’ media continue to incessantly find more and more diabolical new ways, and more and more meticulously contrived excuses to attack, undermine, and further abrogate one of the most important personal safeguards the American public has - NOT just the right to, ‘bear arms’, but the (God-given) historically inherent, and presumably, ‘unalienable’ right of self-defense! (N-1)

My objection is to, ‘HOW’ a majority of relatively unskilled, and modestly trained civilians choose to go armed: To wit, IN THE MOST DANGEROUS PERSONAL MANNER POSSIBLE! Yes, it is my considered opinion that far too many civilians are walking around all day long in C-1 when THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO NECESSITY WITHIN THEIR DAILY ROUTINES FOR THEM TO DO SO.

Are these people, ‘being cool’? Well, ...... I’ve never seen a flagrant open carrier who wasn’t trying his very best to be as, ‘cool’ as he is moronic; and my thinking is no different about civilians who insist upon routine C-1 semi-auto carry. (I spend a lot of time on public firing lines; and much of what I've seen has, probably, helped to turn my hair white!)

The social guideline is a simple one: ‘Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.’ If a legal gun owner wants to advertise his Second Amendment Rights then, rather than flagrantly sporting a dangerous and deadly weapon on his hip, WEAR A T-SHIRT, CARRY A PLACARD, OR HAND OUT COPIES OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, AND THE BILL-OF-RIGHTS. Don’t run around the local shopping mall scaring, ‘the bejesus’ out of everybody else’s: moms, dads, children, and the elderly - That’s neither socially polite, nor intellectually indicative of the best Judeo-Christian ethics have to offer.

Now, if I’m reading you correct your second question touches on your first, and is offered in regard to my above final comment:



Let me try to put things into a more pertinent (and intended) perspective: I’m an individual who has carried at least one pistol, everywhere I go, 24 hours a day, and for the better part of two decades now. ‘Why’? Simple! I’ve previously been attacked; and, as another member of this board once (rather cleverly) pointed out: ‘The devil sends more trouble some people’s way than others.’ Apparently, and for whatever reasons, I appear to be one of those people.

Once I was attacked inside my own home; and, again, twice I’ve been attacked while outside on the property. In the in-home incident I was unarmed; and our Pit Bulldogs came to my rescue. In the other two outside incidents I was heavily armed; and I had to draw a pistol in order to defend myself from impending serious harm.

This should tell you that I, personally, would be among the very last of people to ever proscribe any honest, law abiding individual from going armed. What I’m questioning is THE MANNER in which armed semiautomatic carry is customarily (and habitually) done by the general public. (N-2)

Your questions put me in a position where I have to consider breaking one of my own (albeit recently acquired) rules. After the obscene (albeit continuingly suspicious) gun massacre at Newtown, CT I promised myself that I would never again post any comment on the Internet that teaches someone out in the general public how to be better with, or to more skillfully handle, a combat handgun. (I don’t usually write about rifles. I certainly could; but, I don’t.) You have, however, raised a valid and important objection. This one time I’m going to answer it. You have said:



I’m going to tell you now that: IF YOU HOLD TO THIS LINE-OF-REASONING - this erroneous personal gunfighting philosophy - then your chances of being seriously wounded, or killed, during your next armed encounter are NOTHING SHORT OF ABSOLUTELY EXCELLENT!

Let me ask you this: 'What are you waiting for?' You watch police dash cam videos on television; right! When was the last time you saw a professionally trained police officer hesitate to draw his service pistol THE MOMENT HE REALIZED THAT HE MIGHT BE IN TROUBLE? In hundreds, if not thousands, of televised, real world, police programs I’ve never seen any such lapse in any police officer's personal security occur. (Just the opposite, actually!)

If you want to stay alive, you do NOT wait for an actor to get within arm’s reach of you. You carefully watch his hands; and, ideally, you make yourself ready-to-act at between 12 and 15 yards’ distance. (Don’t be shy about loudly warning a possible attacker off, either!) Anyone who waits until a half second’s time becomes critical has, in my carefully considered opinion, WAITED TOO LONG! Your most viable self-defense plan should have been, both, formulated and put into action LONG BEFORE, ‘arm’s reach and that last critical half second’ has arrived.

Personally, I don’t give a, ‘tinker’s damn’ about what, ‘they’ are teaching in today’s self-defense classes. While all of these classes are (I am certain.) fun and entertaining; as far as I’m concerned there are only three handgun self-defense classes I’d ever have any interest, whatsoever, in attending. I’d definitely be willing to study with and listen to: Dave Spaulding, D.R. Middlebrooks, and Louis Chiodo; but, that’s about it! As far as I’m concerned everybody else is actually in the entertainment business and is teaching CQB self-defense and pistol combat from, ‘behind the curve’. (N-3)

A more correct restatement of the remark, ‘The fact that the vast majority of armed encounters are very short distances.’ would be, ‘The fact is that the vast majority of armed encounters WHICH THE GOOD GUYS LOSE occur at very short distances.' I’m telling you, here, that if you end up grappling for your life inside an instantaneous CQB knife or pistol ambush, then, more than likely,

IT’S GOING TO BE YOUR OWN FAULT!

What is more, the usual Internet rational for going around all day long with your semiautomatic pistol in C-1, and exposing absolutely everyone - including yourself - to potential harm is most typically given as: In order to be supremely ready for just such a highly unlikely ambush attempt! (An ambush attempt, I might add, for which more than 90% of the, ‘Glockeroos’ out there are - as you, now, know - only very poorly prepared to defend themselves against.) (N-4), (N-5)

I hope I’ve satisfactorily answered your question.

NOTES:

(N-1) ‘Unalienable’, Thomas Jefferson’s careful choice-of-words, not mine! I would have used, ‘inalienable’; but, for reasons known only to himself, Jefferson chose to reintroduce this archaic word back into the English language from earlier 16th and 17th century usage.)

(N-2) For the neophytes and mentally confused: A revolver is NOT ever carried in C-1. Only a semiautomatic pistol can be carried that way; and for those who insist there is no difference between carrying a modern revolver with a fully loaded cylinder, and a C-1 Glock, ...... well, these guys have been spending too much time on the Internet. REVOLVERS DO NOT HAVE 74% + PRETENSIONED TRIGGER MECHANISMS!

(N-3) If Jim Cirillo were still alive I would have included him in this list, too.

(N-4) Don’t tell me about what police officers do, either. Uniformed police officers use, ‘Level Three’ high security holsters - NOT the open-topped, lightly secured holster designs that most of us who go about, ‘in mufti’ all day long prefer to use. An open-topped holster, and a minimally-secured pistol that’s, also, carried in C-1, all, lead up to only one thing: Thee most potentially volatile manner in which a civilian might holster and carry a semiautomatic combat handgun.

(N-5) I use the term, ‘combat handgun’ because that’s actually what it is; and, one more time, at the very least I think C-3 is how members of the general public should routinely carry their semiautomatic pistols! I've been able to survive, twice now, doing it; other competent and knowing gunmen should be able to do it, too.

About to run out the door, so don't have time to break it down, but will just add three more points.

First, I fully agree that far too many people carrying are under-trained in my opinion. While not supported by most gun owners, and certainly not the gun owners that frequent GT and other forums, I think we should have a nationally recognized concealed carry license, BUT that it should require much more training (multi-day, lot's of hands on/range/tactics).

Second, I was not inferring that you were saying nobody should carry or be allowed to carry. Instead, I was simply saying that the logic used to defend not having a weapon prepared for a self defense situation (C1), which is that most people will never have to defend themselves in their lifetime, is the same argument that the anti-gun crowd uses as the reason why nobody should be carrying period. Personally, I don't know why people carry a concealed weapon if it isn't with the sole purpose of defending themselves if that one in a million attack is on them.

Third, as to drawing too late and using the dash cams as evidence. While I commend, even when disagreeing, with most of your comments, in this one, I think you are way off base and making a dangerous and non-reality based argument.

Police have been given far greater latitude in their ability to draw (brandish if you will) a weapon, especially in situations where they are making a traffic stop or in some other way temporarily detailing someone, as compared to the ability for regular civilians to draw their weapon.

The bar is very high for citizens to draw and brandish a handgun. In many, if not most, states the bar for brandishing a weapon is the same or roughly the same as firing it in self defense. In many, if not most, states it is aggravated assault or something similar and is a felony and sometimes a minimum prison sentence.

So, the law has already put the honest, law abiding citizen "behind the curve."

I've posted elsewhere the importance of situational awareness and trying to to allow yourself to be put in a situation where you have a close encounter, but the fact is that it isn't always under our control. We can't pull a gun on every person that looks dodgy that is about to pass us on the street. Fact is that if you are going to be mugged/robbed the person likely will not draw their weapon, make it clear until they are only feet away. They aren't going to stand 20' away (forget 15-20 yards), pull their knife and say, "throw your wallet on the ground or i'm gonna come over there and take it from you."

There is no question that part of that awareness is to switch to the others side of the street if you see someone that you believe could be a bad guy, or take an alternate route. If someone suspicious is approaching them, you can and should loudly ask them what they want, tell them not to approach, etc. However, that simply doesn't come close to covering every situation, such as walking down a street and having someone pop out of a darkened entrance way, out between two cars or any one of hundreds of other examples I could give.

So, while we all need to do our best to avoid putting ourselves in the situation of having a close encounter, the fact is that's what is likely to happen if in that VERY rare circumstance we have to draw a gun to defend ourselves.

As such, as responsible gun owners with concealed carry permits that are carrying a gun in a responsible way, we should be trained (as well as possible) to defend ourselves in the manner we are most likely to be attacked, which on the street is in a very close encounter.

My point had nothing to do with entertainment or some "cool" notion of gunfighting, ti was pointing out the reality, which is that it's far more likely that the issue with chambering a round will not relate to the .5 seconds it takes, but the ability to use your weak hand to rack the slide, and it has nothing to do with it hanging limp from being shot (the example you gave and discounted as unrealistic).
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Old 02-07-2013, 14:23   #258
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Final Points. (for me)

1. Safety is not a mechanical device it is an attitude backed up with good habits.
2. If you treat all firearms as if they are always loaded all the time then it doesn’t matter if the mechanical device that blocks the firing mechanism is engaged or not.
3. “Complacency Kills” is not an internet cliché, it’s a literal truth and I’ve seen it happen it the most literal way possible
4. No matter how many times you’ve had the discussion safety is always worth discussing.
5. Some of you don’t post responses, you write novels.
6. I wish I could take some of you guys to work with me. You might gain a whole new perspective on safety and you’d probably have a pretty good time as well.
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Old 02-07-2013, 15:29   #259
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I always always always have one in the chamber when I carry. When you need your gun, seconds can mean the difference between life and death.

If I need my gun right then, I don't want to have to pull the gun out then fumble as I rack the slide. I would rather be able to pull the gun out and start firing if needed.

Personal preference is all.
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Old 02-07-2013, 16:53   #260
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Arc Angel,

Amen. If I don't have the time or wits to rack my slide back I wasn't meant to win that day.
I see you understand!

Still, it's that nagging doubt that SHOULD always be, 'rubbing away at the back of your mind' that will keep you sharp and prevent you from becoming either distracted or complacent. (Two of the three outstanding personal attributes that every predator always looks for! The third, of course, being any perceived weakness in an intended victim.)

As for, 'time and wits'? I'd suggest you never forget that, in addition to your hands, you've, also, got your feet; and the other guy always has knees. Whenever there's no time to do anything else, first thing, get off the other guy's vertical body centerline. Then - somehow, someway - disrupt the other guy's balance and clear yourself from any weapon BEFORE completing your, 'reply'.

At CQB distances savvy gunfighting is exactly the same thing as good knife fighting technique; AND, considering the prerequisite level of personal skill, methodology, and necessary acquired reflexes, skillful infighting techniques are next to impossible to teach during one of these 3-5 day handgun self-defense courses!

In all fairness to many of the shooting schools, though: At CQB distances it makes more sense to simply teach a typical student how to defend himself by shooting his pistol from high retention (As nutty as it is!) than it does to attempt to teach someone how to minimize his body's silhouette, and become a much more difficult-to-hit physical target BEFORE beginning to, 'reply'. (Paper doesn't shoot back, isn't evasive, and is only rarely moving! It, also, doesn’t require, ‘squat’ in order to get someone shooting quickly from, literally, under his nose! Hence the true origin of, self-defense shooting, ‘from high retention’.)

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Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
…… First, I fully agree that far too many people carrying are under-trained in my opinion. While not supported by most gun owners, and certainly not the gun owners that frequent GT and other forums, I think we should have a nationally recognized concealed carry license, BUT that it should require much more training (multi-day, lot's of hands on/range/tactics).
You are soooo ….. right! At risk of exposing my age and acquired doubtful nature: I, personally, believe that antithetical, anti-Second Amendment politicians - Who realize that they will not succeed in preventing people from exercising their Second Amendment rights - actually encourage and allow these incredibly lax gun laws to pass through the legislation process in order to foster safety problems among all of their fellow citizens who insist upon carrying deadly weapons. Sometimes, after a long day at the range, I’ll think to myself that it’s, actually, amazing more of us don’t end up by, ‘shooting ourselves or each other in the foot’, so to speak.

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Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
Second, I was not inferring that you were saying nobody should carry or be allowed to carry. Instead, I was simply saying that the logic used to defend not having a weapon prepared for a self defense situation (C1), which is that most people will never have to defend themselves in their lifetime, is the same argument that the anti-gun crowd uses as the reason why nobody should be carrying period. Personally, I don't know why people carry a concealed weapon if it isn't with the sole purpose of defending themselves if that one in a million attack is on them.
OK, got ya! Nevertheless, crime in the United States has never been greater; street gangs (drug gangs) have never been more numerous, or covered as much territory; and as long as: crime, drug abuse, and sexual license continue to escalate among the American population, then, more and more Americans are going to need to, AT LEAST, have effective means of self-defense immediately available to them.

Ironically - and I do mean IRONICALLY - it’s often these very same politicians that are so anxious to disarm America who are, simultaneously, responsible for allowing numerous adverse social factors and lax laws to exist! Aberrant social situations, (e.g.: out-of-control illegal immigration) and weak or unenforced laws which both actively contribute to, or actually increase: the growing number of criminals, the growing number of crimes, and the corresponding increases in increasingly depressed, increasingly violent, and increasingly unstable, socio-economic living conditions, e.g.; Large American cities like: Detroit, Trenton, Harrisburg, and Philadelphia.

I live in Northeastern Pennsylvania. Who in their right mind would want to travel to Philly without wearing a gun? Paradoxically, though, Philadelphia politicians are among the most staunchly anti-Second Amendment politicos in America today! Far from being, ‘The birthplace Of The Nation’, Philadelphia, today, is more of an absolute caricature of what the American nation was, originally, intended to be.

Which should tell any thinking human being that all of these incessant political calls to disarm America - To stop, ‘gun violence’ - are, in reality, nothing more than a tacit admission that we have failed as a national society, and Western civilization’s great experiment in forming a democratic republic has, ...... failed!

Getting rid of guns, and severely limiting their use and effectiveness is NOT going to stop violence - Not at all! Instead, all that’s going to happen here is what the news media presently refers to as, ‘gun violence’ will simply morph into some other form of painful and bloody social terror. The problem really truly isn’t with guns; the real problem is with people and what’s going on inside of their godless reprobate heads. Getting rid of guns didn’t solve any of Great Britain’s social ills. Boycotting numerous firearms only made things worse; and, if the same dumbass logic is applied, here, in America then we may only expect things to get even worse here, too.

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Third, as to drawing too late and using the dash cams as evidence. While I commend, even when disagreeing, with most of your comments, in this one, I think you are way off base and making a dangerous and non-reality based argument.
Ahh, I never said that! In fact I didn’t even mean to imply it, either.

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Police have been given far greater latitude in their ability to draw (brandish if you will) a weapon, especially in situations where they are making a traffic stop or in some other way temporarily detailing someone, as compared to the ability for regular civilians to draw their weapon.

The bar is very high for citizens to draw and brandish a handgun. In many, if not most, states the bar for brandishing a weapon is the same or roughly the same as firing it in self defense. In many, if not most, states it is aggravated assault or something similar and is a felony and sometimes a minimum prison sentence.

So, the law has already put the honest, law abiding citizen "behind the curve."
Spot on! We are in complete agreement. There is a double legal standard which all American courts that I know of don’t hesitate to apply with supremely indifferent duplicity: One far more pragmatic (and lenient) standard for using firearms is applied to law enforcement, and another radically different, much more stringently interpreted, and far less useful standard for displaying or using firearms is applied to armed citizens among the general population.

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I've posted elsewhere the importance of situational awareness and trying to allow yourself to be put in a situation where you have a close encounter, but the fact is that it isn't always under our control. We can't pull a gun on every person that looks dodgy that is about to pass us on the street. Fact is that if you are going to be mugged/robbed the person likely will not draw their weapon, make it clear until they are only feet away. They aren't going to stand 20' away (forget 15-20 yards), pull their knife and say, "throw your wallet on the ground or I'm gonna come over there and take it from you."
In my experience it isn’t necessary to, ‘pull a gun’ on everyone who looks dodgy. Usually, it’s more than sufficient to simply let them know that you’re aware, and are watching them. (Dodgy people tend to be cowards-at-heart; and it’s often enough to make them aware that whatever they have in mind isn’t going to be, either, easy or worth it.)

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There is no question that part of that awareness is to switch to the other side of the street if you see someone that you believe could be a bad guy, or take an alternate route. If someone suspicious is approaching them, you can and should loudly ask them what they want, tell them not to approach, etc. However, that simply doesn't come close to covering every situation, such as walking down a street and having someone pop out of a darkened entrance way, out between two cars or any one of hundreds of other examples I could give.
Changing direction, or the speed at which you move are always good, ‘opening moves’. So, is loudly voicing your concern and verbally making your intentions clear. (You got that right out of the NRA self-defense manual; didn’t you!) I’ve already alluded to the concept that whether a man wants to, or not, ‘We, all, walk with God.’ That’s, ‘Why’ The Lord’s Prayer includes the words, ‘And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil’. Let me ask this: Between carrying my pistol in C-1, or repeating The Lord’s Prayer to myself everyday, and carrying in C-3 which practice do you think is going to keep me the most safe?

If it’s your time then it’s your time. The only reason, ‘Why’ I’m writing this right now is, try as they might, the doctors weren’t able to finish me off back in 2009. They did their damnedest; but, it wasn’t yet my time. All their efforts to, ‘heal’ me failed; and, finally, I made a miraculous recovery all by myself - One that a leading cardiologist who was reading my most recent test results remarked, ‘I don’t know what to say?’ ‘We don’t usually see this!’ I, however, knew exactly what to say; and I replied, ‘It’s not my time, yet; is it!

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So, while we all need to do our best to avoid putting ourselves in the situation of having a close encounter, the fact is that's what is likely to happen if in that VERY rare circumstance we have to draw a gun to defend ourselves.
To get back to the original topic: Quite honestly I have no valid reason to feel disadvantaged by the way in which I usually carry my (C-3) pistol - No disadvantage at all. I have a whole regimen, a personal manual of arms, that I live by. I may be in C-3; but I never seatbelt my jacket or cover garment lapel over my gun. I tend to wear my pistol, forward, so that I’ll be just that much faster if I have to reach for it. I, also, keep a BUG readily available to my support arm and/or in an outside coat pocket if I’m forced to close my coat; etc., etc., etc.

(I suspect you’d be amazed at how well I watch out for myself, and move about as I go through what most people watching me would imagine to be the, 'normal behaviors' of a, ‘normal day'.)

On the Internet everybody talks like C-1 carry is the, ‘end all’ and, ‘be all’ of getting ready for a sudden, ‘ambush moment’. Trust me on this: C-1 carry is only one small part of being ready to defend yourself with a semi-auto; AND, in the real world, C-1 carry is NOT the most important thing a self-defense gunman needs to do in order to make and keep himself, ‘good-to-go’.

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As such, as responsible gun owners with concealed carry permits that are carrying a gun in a responsible way, we should be trained (as well as possible) to defend ourselves in the manner we are most likely to be attacked, which on the street is in a very close encounter.
While I will admit to a certain personal prescience, at the same time I can’t imagine what it must be like to be that psychic. Quite frankly I don’t think of myself as a, ‘responsible gun owner’. Instead, I think of myself as a, ‘morally-inclined gunman’. Accepting responsibility is fine; but, personally, I’ve always been more concerned about doing the right thing (the Christian thing). In fact, doing the, ‘Christian thing’ occupies a great deal of my life. I’m only going to be here for a little while longer; and concepts like the, ‘Golden Rule’ are of increased importance to me. I honestly believe and appreciate that I should, ‘Do unto others as I would have others do unto me.’ As I’ve previously explained: This is one of the reasons, ‘Why’ I extend the courtesy of CONCEALED C-3 CARRY to everyone with whom I come into daily contact. (Even the, ‘bad guys’!)

As for, 'responsible gun ownership'? I've got an entire lifetime (replete with a few mistakes) that - far from being just safety rules - are actually thoroughly inculcated GUN HANDLING HABITS. Hard won experience has taught me the folly of trying to be safe with a gun by following a bunch of memorized rules. A good memory is only marginally able to keep someone safe with a gun. On the other hand, impeccable gun handling habits - which a gun owner/user is emotionally unwilling to break - will always be the best and the most responsible way to properly handle and use a gun. Should I get into a sudden ambush type of CQB gunfight, I'm not going to be the one doing the shooting; my proprioceptive reflexes - MY HABITS - are what the other guy is going to be confronting!

(Which brings up that other great perennial argument about, 'fight or flight' physiological responses; but, that's a whole other topic for another controversial thread!)

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Originally Posted by tnedator View Post
My point had nothing to do with entertainment or some "cool" notion of gunfighting, I was pointing out the reality, which is that it's far more likely that the issue with chambering a round will not relate to the .5 seconds it takes, but the ability to use your weak hand to rack the slide, and it has nothing to do with it hanging limp from being shot (the example you gave and discounted as unrealistic).
I know. The remark wasn’t really aimed at you. It’s based more on my general experience with arguing this subject - Which, quite frankly, seems to have more lives than the little gray jungle cat that, at the moment, is sleeping next to me on the desk!

That's it! I'm done.

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Old 02-07-2013, 17:27   #261
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1. Safety is not a mechanical device it is an attitude backed up with good habits.
2. If you treat all firearms as if they are always loaded all the time then it doesn’t matter if the mechanical device that blocks the firing mechanism is engaged or not.
3. “Complacency Kills” is not an internet cliché, it’s a literal truth and I’ve seen it happen it the most literal way possible
4. No matter how many times you’ve had the discussion safety is always worth discussing.
5. Some of you don’t post responses, you write novels.
6. I wish I could take some of you guys to work with me. You might gain a whole new perspective on safety and you’d probably have a pretty good time as well.
You have my strong agreement that "complacency kills". That applies to everything we do that has an element of danger.

The occupational safety slogan "SAFETY FIRST" means just what it says. Safety must come before speed, doing the job cheaper, meeting production targets or budget constraints, to satisfy the boss, to clock out sooner. I was responsible for safety in a dangerous business, so I, too, have seen the devistating consequences of complacency. This safety slogan applies to handling firearms as much as any highly dangerous occupation.

My disagreement with your position is you believe training and attentiveness are more powerful than our human tendencies. You are comfortable saying that attitude and good habits will overcome the fact that we are imperfect beings in an imperfect world. Despite having a top-notch occupational safety program where safety is always the highest priority and safety training is continuous, people still get hurt on the job...and worse...because they're human.

If I was capable of always performing flawlessly, I could handle any firearm under any circumstances without any safety device or carrying C3. Then we could stop having this discussion.

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Old 02-07-2013, 22:16   #262
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A loaded Glock is just as safe as a DO revolver, and safer than a 1911 cocked and locked. IMHO Just make sure it's in a good holster and not tucked in your waistband or lying in a coat pocket, that could be bad. RE-holstering in some IWB holsters have the potential for a trigger snag, so exercise caution.

BTW The discharge you're worried about is a negligent discharge, not an accidental one. There is a difference.

I felt a little uncomfortable about a hot gun when I first got a CCW, mostly because of my hunting experience. When I'm in the field hunting deer I never carry a round in the chamber. That's because of an old Remington 700 I had that had a bad habit of firing occasionally when the safety was switched off. That is an accidental discharge. It broke me of the habit of carrying with a round in.
But once I got comfortable with the fact that a glock trigger mechanism is basically like a D.O. revolver, (and I had packed plenty of them around with 6 chambers loaded) I quit worrying about it.
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:17   #263
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A loaded Glock is just as safe as a DO revolver, and safer than a 1911 cocked and locked. IMHO Just make sure it's in a good holster and not tucked in your waistband or lying in a coat pocket, that could be bad. RE-holstering in some IWB holsters have the potential for a trigger snag, so exercise caution.
First you state how a Glock is "just as safe as a DO revolver" and then you go on to list all the exceptions to your statement.

Personally I would not hesitate to drop my S&W 442 in a coat pocket but I can't concieve of doing the same with a C1 Glock.

They are not even remotely the same and you did a great job of illustrating why.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:34   #264
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First you state how a Glock is "just as safe as a DO revolver" and then you go on to list all the exceptions to your statement.

Personally I would not hesitate to drop my S&W 442 in a coat pocket but I can't concieve of doing the same with a C1 Glock.

They are not even remotely the same and you did a great job of illustrating why.

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
YES!

('Comrade Happyguy'! Wazzup?)
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Old 02-08-2013, 04:50   #265
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YES!

('Comrade Happyguy'! Wazzup?)
I'm just trying to blend in and avoid bringing attention to myself what with the results of the last election and all.

Have a great day comrade Arc Angel!

Regards,
Comrade Happyguy
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:35   #266
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That's it! I'm done.
As with your other posts in this thread, all well thought out and articulated points. I agree with some, disagree with others, but in both cases, appreciate the well reasoned and respectful dialogue.
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Old 02-08-2013, 08:48   #267
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I've been following this thread carefully, and I admit it was thought provoking and extremely interesting. So, here's my attempt to sum up the well-reasoned arguments and connect common themes presented in this thread, and also I want to offer some personal thoughts on various issues repeatedly brought up in this thread.

1. Glock CCW C1 or C3? It depends. As unsatisfying as this answer is, it is probably the most useful. What does it depend on?

A. Your personal threat assessment.

Here are some examples:

If you are a LEO or military operating in highly dangerous environments and regularly encountering deadly threats - C1 is appropriate. What perhaps is also appropriate is a bullet-proof vest, having weapon in your hand, and having a rifle/shotgun as a primary weapon. (It seems that most experts, such as firearms instructors we come in contact with most often, come from this sort of background. For them C1 made sense throughout their career, and they internalized C1 so thoroughly, that they cannot see any other way of carrying as an acceptable alternative, and thus cannot recommend anything but C1 to their students. Based on their life experiences, this totally makes sense. However, threat levels vary for different people, and different carry options make more/less sense for different people. So, we should respect opinions of experts, but also be mindful of how these opinions were formed.)

If you are an average Joe living in relatively safe area, than C3 would be wiser. Here risk of deadly encounter is much smaller than the risk of ND/AD. But a combat mindset and elevated situational awareness must be employed to avoid situations when you are unable to react to threat and have yourself get injured before being able to draw, rack, and point your weapon. Close-quarter combat training will also be useful to achieve the latter goal.

If you are an average Joe living in very unsafe area, where encountering deadly threat is very likely, than you should strongly consider C1. Of course, C1 will not compensate fully for lack of combat mindset, proper situational awareness, and lack of closer-quarter combat training. Although, C1 might give you some edge.

If you are an average Joe carrying your glock when hiking or using it for home defense, C3 is a wise choice.

B. Your level of training. Obsessive attention and concern for safety is a must. Repeatedly following safety rules and hardwiring them into one's brain is a must. Thorough training where you handle your weapon under stress is a must. Learning to respect your weapon and learning to treat it as a rattle snake is a useful mindset. This is essential for C3. This is ABSOLUTELY essential for C1.

C. Your assessment of your level of complacency (complacency, ironically, can stem from extensive training and habitual handling of your weapon). Some people cut themselves routinely with knives by accident. Some people have many auto accidents. Some people get lost in thought and are forgetful by nature. If you are one of these people, do not carry in C3. I'd go even further and say, consider not owning a firearm. The last point might be controversial here, but I wanted to put it out there for people who are currently not gun owners and who are reading this thread.

2. Method of carrying (C1 v. C3) should not be thought of as static, and you should modify it based on changing conditions.

If you are an average Joe who uses glock for home defense and keeps it in C3 - it might be wise to rack the slide and put the gun in C1 if you hear suspicious noise in the middle of the night.

If you are an average Joe who works in a dangerous area, but lives in a relatively safe area, and who carries in C1, - it might be wise to put your glock in C3 when you get back home from work.

If you are an average Joe living and working in a very safe area, but on rare occasions you must go to very unsafe areas - you might want to put your glock temporarily into C1 when you are in those unsafe areas and increase your level of awareness of the increased danger of your weapon.

Whatever method you switch from or switch to, treat the gun as a rattle snake that will hurt you if you lose your concentration or become complacent. Also, practice with all the methods you might conceivably want to opt for (in case of glock, it's probably C1 and C3).

3. A gun is inherently more dangerous than a knife. A knife is inherently more dangerous than a screwdriver. A screwdriver is inherently more dangerous than a pen with pointed end. A pen with pointed end is inherently more dangerous than a shoe. Guns are inherently dangerous. Accept it, and don't get hung up with political arguments. This point might be made by liberals more often than by conservatives, but it doesn't mean this point is false. Yes, guns do not kill by themselves. But, a handgun is inherently more dangerous (dangerous to the enemy, and dangerous to the user) than a hammer or a cooking spoon. That's why police and military (and, yes, BGs) carry guns instead of hammers or cooking spoons. And that's why safety is more emphasized during firearms training, and not emphasized so much during karate sticks training, for example. Similarly, one method of carrying a gun (C0 or C1) is inherently more dangerous than another method (C3). Changing from one method of carry (C3) to another (C1) changes the inherent nature of one's weapon by making it more lethal to adversary, but also making it more dangerous to the user and people near the user. Yes, you should also include human action into the safety equation; but do not lose track of the inherent properties of the tool/technology we are using. Both, the tool and the technique of handling the tool equally powerfully influence one's safety and lethality. Being mindful of that will make one more capable/responsible gun owner.

Once again, this has been a very useful discussion, and it helped me see the issues more clearly. Thanks all who participated in a rational and substantive manner. Cheers!
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:20   #268
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Vandros- You're obviously here to learn and you have an open mind. I sincerely hope others who followed this thread understand the possible consequences of their CC choices and weigh their decisions carefully, as you are doing.

Carrying a firearm is very, very serious business. Research and careful thought, training and practice, understanding the law and personal accountability, mental and physical conditioning, good judgement and situational awareness, and fully appreciating the lethality of our weapons are only part of the necessary learning process. Foremost, in my opinion, is that SAFETY comes FIRST. I'm glad you're on that track, and I hope many others follow.

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Old 02-08-2013, 11:55   #269
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Interesting post. I'll add a few personal thoughts of my own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vandros View Post
I've been following this thread carefully, and I admit it was thought provoking and extremely interesting. So, here's my attempt to sum up the well-reasoned arguments and connect common themes presented in this thread, and also I want to offer some personal thoughts on various issues repeatedly brought up in this thread.

1. Glock CCW C1 or C3? It depends. As unsatisfying as this answer is, it is probably the most useful. What does it depend on?

A. Your personal threat assessment.

Here are some examples:

If you are a LEO or military operating in highly dangerous environments and regularly encountering deadly threats - C1 is appropriate. What perhaps is also appropriate is a bullet-proof vest, having weapon in your hand, and having a rifle/shotgun as a primary weapon. (It seems that most experts, such as firearms instructors we come in contact with most often, come from this sort of background. For them C1 made sense throughout their career, and they internalized C1 so thoroughly, that they cannot see any other way of carrying as an acceptable alternative, and thus cannot recommend anything but C1 to their students. Based on their life experiences, this totally makes sense. However, threat levels vary for different people, and different carry options make more/less sense for different people. So, we should respect opinions of experts, but also be mindful of how these opinions were formed.)

If you are an average Joe living in relatively safe area, than C3 would be wiser. Here risk of deadly encounter is much smaller than the risk of ND/AD. But a combat mindset and elevated situational awareness must be employed to avoid situations when you are unable to react to threat and have yourself get injured before being able to draw, rack, and point your weapon. Close-quarter combat training will also be useful to achieve the latter goal.

If you are an average Joe living in very unsafe area, where encountering deadly threat is very likely, than you should strongly consider C1. Of course, C1 will not compensate fully for lack of combat mindset, proper situational awareness, and lack of closer-quarter combat training. Although, C1 might give you some edge.

If you are an average Joe carrying your glock when hiking or using it for home defense, C3 is a wise choice.
While when traveling in a very dangerous area, the need for C1 becomes more apparent, but there are many, many examples of people in non-dangerous areas that have been attacked.

While the choice between C1 and C3 has many factors that should be considered, I think the "this is a safer area" mentality is questionable. You don't need to defend yourself in that safer area until you do. That's the whole reason you are still carrying a defensive weapon in the "safer area."

Quote:
B. Your level of training. Obsessive attention and concern for safety is a must. Repeatedly following safety rules and hardwiring them into one's brain is a must. Thorough training where you handle your weapon under stress is a must. Learning to respect your weapon and learning to treat it as a rattle snake is a useful mindset. This is essential for C3. This is ABSOLUTELY essential for C1.
I couldn't disagree more on the last two sentences. That should read:

"This is ABSOLUTELY essential for C3. This is ABSOLUTELY essential for C1."

Now, I don't think the rattlesnake analogy is quite right, but that's nitpicking. The issue is that EVERY gun, whether or not you "think" you are currently in C3 or not, should be treated exactly the same. Unless you seconds earlier, visually and physically confirmed no round is chambered, then you should treat that gun as if it's C1. Period.

Whether in C1 or C3, you MUST, absolutely MUST, use the same exact safety precautions. This is the whole reason that we hear the old timers, instructors and others talk about more people have been accidentally shot/killed with unloaded guns than loaded ones.


Quote:
2. Method of carrying (C1 v. C3) should not be thought of as static, and you should modify it based on changing conditions.

If you are an average Joe who uses glock for home defense and keeps it in C3 - it might be wise to rack the slide and put the gun in C1 if you hear suspicious noise.

If you are an average Joe who works in a dangerous area, but lives in a relatively safe area, and who carries in C1, - it might be wise to put your glock in C3 when you get back home from work.

If you are an average Joe living and working in a very safe area, but on rare occasions you must go to very unsafe areas - you might want to put your glock temporarily into C1 when you are in those unsafe areas and increase your level of awareness of the increased danger of your weapon.
When using this way of carrying, you must remember that the most likely time for an accidental/negligent discharge is during loading/unloading of your weapon. If you routinely are chambering/unchambering rounds, possible in the car while trying to remain inconspicous, you are GREATLY increasing your chances of a negligent discharge.

For instance, if your every day carry stays C1 in it's holster, except when shooting at the range, and every day you take the holster off at night and put it back on in the morning, there is something along the lines of zero percent chance of an accidental discharge.

On the other hand, if you are routinely chambering and unchambering rounds, depending on where you might be traveling that day, you are increasing the chances of having a negligent/accidental discharge.

The "rattlesnake" can't go off by itself, when it's in holster. It can only go off when you are handling it and not doing so properly.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:16   #270
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There are various ways of evaluating mode of carry, and those have been well explained here.

Given my bias for safety first, I believe a reasonable final test for one's conclusions about carry mode is: If I ever experience a ND that kills or injures someone, can I say that I did everything reasonably possible to carry my firearm safely? Whether we're thinking about the weight of someone's death on our conscience or the legal consequences of such an incident, accountability rests squarely on our shoulders.

There is merit in concern raised about changing carry mode from C3 to C1 at times of high alert, then shifting back to C3 when the perceived danger passes. Thats a practice I will probably abandon, even though it rarely happens, in order to be consistent and avoid the additional handling required. The back-and-forth mode changes violate my final test for safe handling as expressed above. It would be a small adjustment on my part because it happens so infrequently, but it would be a process improvement nonetheless.

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Old 02-08-2013, 12:36   #271
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There are various ways of evaluating mode of carry, and those have been well explained here.

Given my bias for safety first, I believe a reasonable final test for one's conclusions about carry mode is: If I ever experience a ND that kills or injures someone, can I say that I did everything reasonably possible to carry my firearm safely? Whether we're thinking about the weight of someone's death on our conscience or the legal consequences of such an event, accountability rests squarely on our shoulders.

There is merit in concern raised about changing carry mode from C3 to C1 at times of high alert, then shifting back to C3 when the perceived danger passes. Thats a practice I will probably abandon, even though it rarely happens, just to be consistent. The mode change violates my final test for safe handling as expressed above.
I used to keep my G19 at the bedside, C3. If I heard a noise or otherwise felt I needed to check the house, I would chamber a round, often after having woken up in the middle of the night, check the house, and then when I found all was well, I dropped the mag, unchambered the round, and then reloaded that round in the mag. I created multiple opportunities, while having just woken up and having adrenaline running, to have an accidental discharge.

I am not strong believer that whichever method you choose, you should stay in that mode and only change when you absolutely have to and of course at the range. You can eliminate chambering/unchambering, such as when you are cleaning/lubing your gun, etc. However, routinely doing so, creates opportunities for accidents that having a holstered (C1 or C3) weapon prevent.
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Old 02-08-2013, 14:44   #272
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Interesting post. I'll add a few personal thoughts of my own.



While when traveling in a very dangerous area, the need for C1 becomes more apparent, but there are many, many examples of people in non-dangerous areas that have been attacked.

While the choice between C1 and C3 has many factors that should be considered, I think the "this is a safer area" mentality is questionable. You don't need to defend yourself in that safer area until you do. That's the whole reason you are still carrying a defensive weapon in the "safer area."



I couldn't disagree more on the last two sentences. That should read:

"This is ABSOLUTELY essential for C3. This is ABSOLUTELY essential for C1."

Now, I don't think the rattlesnake analogy is quite right, but that's nitpicking. The issue is that EVERY gun, whether or not you "think" you are currently in C3 or not, should be treated exactly the same. Unless you seconds earlier, visually and physically confirmed no round is chambered, then you should treat that gun as if it's C1. Period.

Whether in C1 or C3, you MUST, absolutely MUST, use the same exact safety precautions. This is the whole reason that we hear the old timers, instructors and others talk about more people have been accidentally shot/killed with unloaded guns than loaded ones.




When using this way of carrying, you must remember that the most likely time for an accidental/negligent discharge is during loading/unloading of your weapon. If you routinely are chambering/unchambering rounds, possible in the car while trying to remain inconspicous, you are GREATLY increasing your chances of a negligent discharge.

For instance, if your every day carry stays C1 in it's holster, except when shooting at the range, and every day you take the holster off at night and put it back on in the morning, there is something along the lines of zero percent chance of an accidental discharge.

On the other hand, if you are routinely chambering and unchambering rounds, depending on where you might be traveling that day, you are increasing the chances of having a negligent/accidental discharge.

The "rattlesnake" can't go off by itself, when it's in holster. It can only go off when you are handling it and not doing so properly.
I agree that consistency is VERY valuable for safe gun handling. I would only go from C3 to C1 on very rare occasions - perhaps when going from condition "orange" to "red". If such occasions become frequent (more than once per month) - I should be considering using C1 all the time. But if such occasions are infrequent, then I wouldn't worry about it, just as I am OK chambering/unchambering carefully on shooting range or people carrying in C1 unchambering/chambering when cleaning the gun. But, if I have my gun at C3 by my bed, and hear noise, I think it will be smart to chamber a round when you realize the noise is very abnormal/suspicious and likely coming from intruder.

As for your criticism of my recommendation for training, I have probably not explained my point clearly enough. I was trying to say that everyone using C3 must ALWAYS follow all safety precautions and treat the gun as if loaded (plus finger off trigger until ready to fire, plus using reinforced target even when dryfiring, plus never pointing the gun at anything one isn't willing to destroy, plus all other needed rules). But, persons carrying in C1 must be even more alert when carrying and when training - as they are handling objectively more dangerous tool. I'm not saying C3 is completely safe. I'm saying that C1 is objectively less safe when carrying/practicing than C3, keeping all other factors constant.

Finally, my rattlesnake analogy is meant to inspire proper and healthy respect and appreciation for our glocks' lethality. As with any analogy, it is not perfect, but it makes the point of never relaxing or becoming complacent around guns, even when one has been extensively trained and follows all the proper protocols. One should never feel that tens of thousands of hours of perfect practice allow one to relax around guns - this is a dangerous mindset of many young (and sometimes old) gun owners, of our young soldiers, and LEOs that inevitably leads to ADs and NDs).
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Old 02-08-2013, 16:44   #273
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Originally Posted by vandros View Post
I agree that consistency is VERY valuable for safe gun handling. I would only go from C3 to C1 on very rare occasions - perhaps when going from condition "orange" to "red". If such occasions become frequent (more than once per month) - I should be considering using C1 all the time. But if such occasions are infrequent, then I wouldn't worry about it, just as I am OK chambering/unchambering carefully on shooting range or people carrying in C1 unchambering/chambering when cleaning the gun. But, if I have my gun at C3 by my bed, and hear noise, I think it will be smart to chamber a round when you realize the noise is very abnormal/suspicious and likely coming from intruder.

As for your criticism of my recommendation for training, I have probably not explained my point clearly enough. I was trying to say that everyone using C3 must ALWAYS follow all safety precautions and treat the gun as if loaded (plus finger off trigger until ready to fire, plus using reinforced target even when dryfiring, plus never pointing the gun at anything one isn't willing to destroy, plus all other needed rules). But, persons carrying in C1 must be even more alert when carrying and when training - as they are handling objectively more dangerous tool. I'm not saying C3 is completely safe. I'm saying that C1 is objectively less safe when carrying/practicing than C3, keeping all other factors constant.

Finally, my rattlesnake analogy is meant to inspire proper and healthy respect and appreciation for our glocks' lethality. As with any analogy, it is not perfect, but it makes the point of never relaxing or becoming complacent around guns, even when one has been extensively trained and follows all the proper protocols. One should never feel that tens of thousands of hours of perfect practice allow one to relax around guns - this is a dangerous mindset of many young (and sometimes old) gun owners, of our young soldiers, and LEOs that inevitably leads to ADs and NDs).
The only thing I would add is that from a laziness factor, and ALL humans are inherently mentally lazy to one degree or another, C3 is in fact more dangerous. A person carrying C3 is doing so because it is 'safer', because he is carrying an unloaded gun. As I mentioned, the old timers always tell us about more AD's being from unloaded guns than loaded guns.

Anyway, I in no way want to try and convince someone that is more comfortable with C3 than C1 to switch. I'm simply pointing out that C1 is not more dangerous, and it can be argued for many of the reasons I mentioned earlier, that it is less dangerous (far less chambering/unchambering & being lulled into proper gun safety laziness because your gun is unchambered). Nobody should rest easy because they are carrying C3 (especially if they are routinely switching between C1 and C3, which is by FAR the most likely time to have an AD/ND). Instead, every gun, unless you visually and physically inspected it seconds before, should be treated as loaded, in EVERY respect.

Also, for those of you that feel the need to switch between C1 and C3 regularly, be sure you have a very sound technique for doing so.
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Old 02-09-2013, 02:00   #274
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All we are doing is trying to stack the odds in our favor as much as we can. Bad guys already have way more experience in real combat situations than your average person so they know how to stack those odds in theirs.

Also, they know more people are carrying. You can bet though, they are not going to give up their career.

When it comes right down to it, if someone attacking is close enough to you, odds are not in your favor no matter how you carry your gun.
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Old 02-09-2013, 05:53   #275
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All we are doing is trying to stack the odds in our favor as much as we can. Bad guys already have way more experience in real combat situations than your average person so they know how to stack those odds in theirs.

Also, they know more people are carrying. You can bet though, they are not going to give up their career.

When it comes right down to it, if someone attacking is close enough to you, odds are not in your favor no matter how you carry your gun.
Yep...
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