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Old 01-25-2013, 15:28   #76
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WarCry, while I can appreciate your idea as such, you knew there were going to be nay-sayers all about.. however, you did come up with a plan...good job.

We cannot let them legislate anything, if we can help it, once they do, it will be regulated later, to become a monster to stop....if we give in this time, we will cave EVERY time....then they get a foot-hold on another aspect of our lives, NO THANKS.

I do wish we as a collective group could stop the term ' gun-show loop-hole'.....doesn't appear very accurate name, for gun-shows don't make laws, last I knew, the Feds and the State has this loop-hole, if there is one, and simply by selling ANYwhere person to person is the loop-hole, again, the Feds themselves left this in, so why isn't it being called a 'Federal Gun Sale Loop-hole' ?

Just a random thought....I am out, good day, sirs and maams...
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Old 01-25-2013, 15:59   #77
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How many mass shootings would this stop? Murders? Armed robbery?

Agreed. It doesnt.

What id like to know is WHY....when tyranny presents its ugly face....people with posts like this bend over backwards to comply with it, even to suggest such cowardice as branding people with their past for public display.

1. Shall not be infringed means what it says.

2. Hands off the weapons, none of your business.

3. Commit a crime and go to jail till its appropriate to release you at punishments end. Do it again and you go back for twice as long.
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Old 01-25-2013, 16:02   #78
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AFAIK selling to someone in a different state without going through an FFL--and NICS--is a violation of federal law.


Not in all cases. Just handguns. Long guns vary by state.
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Old 01-25-2013, 16:12   #79
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This is patently false. How many times have you heard the phrase "ignorance is no defense"? If you sell a gun to a felon and you get caught doing it, tell me how far you're going to get saying "but I didn't KNOW he was a felon!"

If you're selling a firearm, then that is a reason to know if the person is a convicted felon.
Your own first example that you gave for this 'idea' of yours was to facilitate the felonious interstate sale of a firearm, and laughable as that is, your defense of that absurd example was your own ignorance of the law.

The problem isn't an absence of enough laws. The problem is that we don't even deal with the laws we already have on the books. And in our nation's capitol--as in our state houses--the Department of Redundancy Department is turning and burning 24/7/365 to draft still more laws/codes/regulations/etc... Any given person would need a flotilla of lawyers to even come close to being in compliance with one tenth of one percent of those laws/codes/regulations/etc. Exactly when will enough be enough?

Unfortunately our country is currently plagued with an overabundance of people who--for whatever reason--think that government is the solution to the mystery of life.
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Old 01-25-2013, 16:30   #80
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Your own first example that you gave for this 'idea' of yours was to facilitate the felonious interstate sale of a firearm, and laughable as that is, your defense of that absurd example was your own ignorance of the law.
And if I'd done it an gotten arrested, my defense would not have held up in a court of law.
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Old 01-25-2013, 16:32   #81
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Agreed. It doesnt.

What id like to know is WHY....when tyranny presents its ugly face....people with posts like this bend over backwards to comply with it, even to suggest such cowardice as branding people with their past for public display.

1. Shall not be infringed means what it says.

2. Hands off the weapons, none of your business.

3. Commit a crime and go to jail till its appropriate to release you at punishments end. Do it again and you go back for twice as long.
And don't forget raising taxes to pay for all the new jail-space that would be needed and the people to manage them, and the food to feed them, and the medical staff to care for them...


....except we can't talk about increasing taxes, can we?
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Old 01-25-2013, 18:36   #82
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And don't forget raising taxes to pay for all the new jail-space that would be needed and the people to manage them, and the food to feed them, and the medical staff to care for them...


....except we can't talk about increasing taxes, can we?
No we talk about raising taxes all the time..it's funny how you think raising taxes is the only way to pay for something rather than spending wisely or cutting unnecessary spending..your liberal roots continue to show..
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Old 01-25-2013, 19:23   #83
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
This is patently false. How many times have you heard the phrase "ignorance is no defense"? If you sell a gun to a felon and you get caught doing it, tell me how far you're going to get saying "but I didn't KNOW he was a felon!"
How about you try reading the actual law, before you call somebody a liar and make yourself look like a retard.

18 U.S.C. § 922(d)


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(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person—
(1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
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If you're selling a firearm, then that is a reason to know if the person is a convicted felon.
So you don't have the slightest idea what, "knowing or having reasonable cause to believe" means, in the context of the statute? Feel free to read some case law and the courts will tell you, it means you have some reason to think the person you are selling to is a felon - not "you're selling a firearms so..." that doesn't even make sense in English.

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So, then, you're calling for the complete repeal of things like Megan's Law, and you're asking for the complete dismantling of any and all systems related to these offenders, correct? Because once they've served their time and completed any probationary period, then they're free to live their lives in peace with no further reporting needed, correct?
Yes. That is absolutely, 100% correct and it's coming from somebody who has worked in law enforcement, law and corrections for 25 years.

The best way to win an argument with one of you people is to let him speak his mind and make himself look foolish.
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Old 01-25-2013, 22:13   #84
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And if I'd done it an gotten arrested, my defense would not have held up in a court of law.
You missed the point by a country mile... Nice shootin' Tex!

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Old 01-25-2013, 22:41   #85
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How about something like an 'Eligible' card? Similar to a FOID, but only means the holder is eligible to buy a gun. Renewable every year or so, and in no way tracks whther a gun was bought or not.
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Old 01-25-2013, 23:21   #86
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How about something like an 'Eligible' card? Similar to a FOID, but only means the holder is eligible to buy a gun. Renewable every year or so, and in no way tracks whther a gun was bought or not.
So many people disparage those programs in places where they have them, I'd be surprised if anyone would back it.

Hell, around here, I just put up an idea that would put no weight on the shoulders of law-abiding folk, and I'm getting gutted as a commie-liberal-gun-grabber-sympathizer who's ready to toss the 2nd Amendment out the window.


Then again, you're prettier than me, so maybe they won't be so hard on you! heheh
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Old 01-25-2013, 23:38   #87
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So many people disparage those programs in places where they have them, I'd be surprised if anyone would back it.

Hell, around here, I just put up an idea that would put no weight on the shoulders of law-abiding folk, and I'm getting gutted as a commie-liberal-gun-grabber-sympathizer who's ready to toss the 2nd Amendment out the window.


Then again, you're prettier than me, so maybe they won't be so hard on you! heheh
Prettier then you? You haven't seen me lately, have you?

And let them diss my idea, it's just a thought. And I doubt I can come up with all the reasons it might be a bad idea. But I can promise you, I'm not ready to throw any part of the constitution out the window.
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Old 01-26-2013, 01:26   #88
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
Let me show you something about your question:

While it's a long shot, why should we take the chance on selling AR-15 style rifles? I mean, there's an outside chance that someone might take one and use it to kill a bunch of people. No, it would be easier to just not allow them to be sold at all because of that minimal risk.

Yes, selling a gun in private sales are a risk. Unless you're saying private sales should be done away with (and good luck selling THAT around here!), then you're just going to have accept that there are risks. This is an idea to try and help the good guys stay good guys, that's all.
I asked you a question about what YOU would do. You didn't answer, and it was your proposal. Didn't you think about that?

I told you what I would do. Not sell to people I didn't know or that are not an FFL.

I think we should be free to sell to anyone we don't know or have a reason to believe are prohibited.

The guy shows up and has a FELON enblazened on his license, what do you do?

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Old 01-26-2013, 05:25   #89
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Prettier then you? You haven't seen me lately, have you?

And let them diss my idea, it's just a thought. And I doubt I can come up with all the reasons it might be a bad idea. But I can promise you, I'm not ready to throw any part of the constitution out the window.
NO FOIDS.

It doesn't work to keep the gun violence down in Chicago, it's not going to do a thing anywhere else.

If there was ever the idea that some sort of "FOID" would fix things... Chicago is perfect proof that it's just not true.
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Old 01-26-2013, 05:28   #90
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Hell, around here, I just put up an idea that would put no weight on the shoulders of law-abiding folk, and I'm getting gutted as a commie-liberal-gun-grabber-sympathizer who's ready to toss the 2nd Amendment out the window.
Who'd you vote for?
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The fire is no longer my major concern since I am leaving immediately on an unexpected road trip to Indianapolis. Watch the national news over the next couple of days, I'll wave... well, only if I'm cuffed in the front.
RIP Jack
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:34   #91
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I knew this would get people riled up going in to it. Any talk about any of this just leads to a slippery slope and all. I get it.

I also know a lot of gun guys. Guys who buy and sell guns. Most of these guys have never purchased a gun from a dealer. And they would never do so. The reason is because of the required transfer/background checks and what they consider "backdoor registration". They don't want the government knowing what they bought and what they have. They know that a gun purchased from a dealer can, any time in the future, be traced back to you. I know these guys well and know that none of them are convicted felons or nutcases and none of them have any restrictions on buying firearms. They just don't want the government knowing their business. Fine. That's all well and good.

Except for selling new guns, FFL dealers are put at a disadvantage because of this. There are a LOT of guys out there with this philosophy. It's a large part of the market.

If there was a system in place that merely gave a GO or NO GO without doing an actual transfer, then these guys would be able to continue to buy guns as they pleased, from whoever they please. And the transfer/background check would not have to be done with each purchase. The government would be none the wiser as far as what you were buying, if anything. Or from whom.

I've been looking at the politics of all this and it looks to me like universal background checks are coming. If the logistics can be sorted out then WarCry's idea is an alternative. The argument is going to be presented to the public that guns need to be kept from convicted criminals and the insane. This argument goes over well with the public. How it will play out is that a transfer will have to be done, through an FFL, with each private sale. To counter that with a non intrusive plan that still placates the sentiment of the public may be an option. Flame on.
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:38   #92
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If there was ever the idea that some sort of "FOID" would fix things... Chicago is perfect proof that it's just not true.
Chicago and Detroit are stone cold proof that liberal/progressive government of any kind will result in the polar opposite of "fix things" yet people have continued to vote these people into office.
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Old 01-26-2013, 15:04   #93
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I knew this would get people riled up going in to it. Any talk about any of this just leads to a slippery slope and all. I get it.

I also know a lot of gun guys. Guys who buy and sell guns. Most of these guys have never purchased a gun from a dealer. And they would never do so. The reason is because of the required transfer/background checks and what they consider "backdoor registration". They don't want the government knowing what they bought and what they have. They know that a gun purchased from a dealer can, any time in the future, be traced back to you. I know these guys well and know that none of them are convicted felons or nutcases and none of them have any restrictions on buying firearms. They just don't want the government knowing their business. Fine. That's all well and good.

Except for selling new guns, FFL dealers are put at a disadvantage because of this. There are a LOT of guys out there with this philosophy. It's a large part of the market.

If there was a system in place that merely gave a GO or NO GO without doing an actual transfer, then these guys would be able to continue to buy guns as they pleased, from whoever they please. And the transfer/background check would not have to be done with each purchase. The government would be none the wiser as far as what you were buying, if anything. Or from whom.

I've been looking at the politics of all this and it looks to me like universal background checks are coming. If the logistics can be sorted out then WarCry's idea is an alternative. The argument is going to be presented to the public that guns need to be kept from convicted criminals and the insane. This argument goes over well with the public. How it will play out is that a transfer will have to be done, through an FFL, with each private sale. To counter that with a non intrusive plan that still placates the sentiment of the public may be an option. Flame on.
What you don't seem to get is that this will not work, will not be able to be enforced, and will cost money to implement. Therefor it will increase the size and scope of the government, take money from other resources or cause an increase in taxes, and will do nothing to stop any crime. No reasonable person wants to push for something that everyone knows from the beginning won't work, give the antis an additional restriction, and that will cost taxpayers more just to capitulate to the emotional reaction to supposed gun crime.
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Old 01-26-2013, 15:14   #94
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Laws only affect the law-biding. Yours is a new idea but doesn't seem to be of any real use.
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Old 01-26-2013, 15:14   #95
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What you don't seem to get is that this will not work, will not be able to be enforced, and will cost money to implement. Therefor it will increase the size and scope of the government, take money from other resources or cause an increase in taxes, and will do nothing to stop any crime. No reasonable person wants to push for something that everyone knows from the beginning won't work, give the antis an additional restriction, and that will cost taxpayers more just to capitulate to the emotional reaction to supposed gun crime.
Universal background checks will not work either, will not be able to be enforced, and will cost money to implement. I predict that it WILL however, be implemented. And it will be implmented in such a manner that we will be required to go through an FFL dealer to buy a gun from a private seller.
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Old 01-26-2013, 16:38   #96
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Criminals are criminals, so a falsified drivers license would be a normal tool for such individuals. How many aliens have driver licenses?
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Old 01-26-2013, 16:42   #97
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Prettier then you? You haven't seen me lately, have you?
I can say I have not seen you recently. However, I've not seen you not-recently, either. Still feel pretty confident in my initial assessment.

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And let them diss my idea, it's just a thought. And I doubt I can come up with all the reasons it might be a bad idea. But I can promise you, I'm not ready to throw any part of the constitution out the window.
This is the thing I don't get, and it's coming out in full force here in this thread. Most folks agree that, for the good of law-abiding gun-owners, the best thing we can do is reduce the guns in the hands of non-law-abiding citizens. Because every time a criminal uses a gun, the Powers That Be turn around and point the finger squarely at ALL gun owners. But the SECOND there is a suggestion like this, a suggestion that puts absolutely no burden on people that are NOT felons, then suddenly it's "all you want to do is take my guns, compromise, and sell us out! OVER MY DEAD BODY!!!"

Whatever. As someone posted above, they're not interested in RATIONAL discussion. So what will happen is that the anti-gunners will stop asking for ideas and will instead simply shove their control-ideas down EVERYONE'S throats.

I can take being called names, I'm a big boy. But I can also think and act rationally, not simply blindered as so many folks here are.

BTW, hope your road on the way to recovery is going well and smoothly.
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Old 01-26-2013, 16:47   #98
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Criminals are criminals, so a falsified drivers license would be a normal tool for such individuals. How many aliens have driver licenses?
Yet again, someone who misses the point. No one - and I mean, NO ONE - is saying this is going to be a 100%, nail-in-the-coffin of crime idea. Yes, when you make a better mouse trap, you'll start to see smarter rats. That is part and parcel of this thing we call life.

You're right, there is a very high likelihood that there will be some criminals that go to extraordinary means to acquire firearms anyway. It's happening every single day, right now. But does that mean we should give up even TRYING to stop them from getting firearms? "Well, it's not 100% flawless, so we won't waste our time." That's a real brilliant position.
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Old 01-26-2013, 16:51   #99
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Here's a challenge - rather than rhetoric, someone please show me EXPLICITLY where this idea compromises even ONE Constitutional right. Just one. Any one. Give me one valid example where this idea would limit the ability in any way of a law-abiding, non-felon from purchasing a firearm. Give me even one rational answer as to what additional burden this places on anyone other than a felon who, by law, should have no problem with this because they shouldn't be asking to buy a gun anyway.

If anyone can demonstrate any of these things with a rational example, I'll ask the moderators to lock this thread.
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Old 01-26-2013, 16:51   #100
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I don't necessarily like the idea of it on their driver's license unless they're on probation.

Felons and guns - it's one of those things that I don't have a solid stance on yet. "Shall not be infringed" - the 2nd amendment states it. People get by stating felons lost their rights. If something's a right, it shouldn't be taken away. If that's the case, government can start taking away rights by lowering it to misdemeanors or make misdemeanors felonies.

I think I'm leaning more towards everyone can have guns, but stiffer penalties for gun use in crimes. Not just longer terms, but death penalty and hard labor.
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