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Old 01-24-2013, 20:22   #21
Redstate
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Thanks for all the responses so far.
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Old 01-25-2013, 21:41   #22
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Originally Posted by Redstate View Post
It appears that 1911 with 3" barrels are becoming more and more popular for carry. Without doubt, the 3" barrel will have a velocity loss from a 5" barrel.
Is anyone aware of any terminal ballistics tests for these short barrel 1911s?

Amigo, I did not have the time to read all other replies, just your post. I have used and carried a M1911 45acp forever "when i go to a town or city."

Sometimes I carry my G36. I load my own 'for it', and have a 230gr XTP coming out of that little G36 barrel at 907 fps. Trust me, that is more than enough for excellent penetration on the tuffest hombre's.

I get a tad more out of the M1911 government, but it really don't matter much. I just load my own for the G36 , cause I did not want factory stuff coming out of that 'short barrel' at 700+ fps. 850/900+ fps with a 230 gr (good quality bullet) will dispatch a threat i assure you, and that is from what ever I choose to call "my" experience and my business.

I simply refuse to use anything under 230gr !


Factory ammo for that short a barrel, unless you use buffalo bore, I suppose, is not going to give you much vel. Now, not a great deal of vel is neeed with a big 230gr bullet, but dropping waaaaay down in the high 600's to high 700's in the "shorter barrels", does not appeal to me and i am strictly a big bore shooter and hand loader. Sooo, I prefer in the little G36 to generate something more than 600's or mid 700's. So, I hand load for the G36 with 7.7grs Power pistol, under a 230gr XTP and get a consistant 907-ish fps. Plenty good from any size 45acp. ! And a real bonus to get that from a barrel as short as the G36.



All I got to say. It is enough, and I am very very confident with with it in that short a barrel. If you do NOT reload, then try Buffalo bore. I am not real familiar with a host of other 'factory loads', since i handload, but know enough to know, you won't get that 900+ fps out of 'factory loads' in that short a barrel, outside BB ammo.

BTW... I have 1600 + flawless rounds through the G36 at this vel and with all kinds of HP's.


Hope this helps some.


Strictly big bore for 50 years !










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Old 01-25-2013, 22:38   #23
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Thanks CanyonMan. I have a G36 and I get around 850 fps with factory Ranger T 230 grain out of the G36, and I find that much more than satisfactory. However, the G36 barrel is 3.78 inches long. The original question arises out of my being in the process of attaining a 3.5" barrel Officer sized 1911.
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Old 01-26-2013, 13:56   #24
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Thanks CanyonMan. I have a G36 and I get around 850 fps with factory Ranger T 230 grain out of the G36, and I find that much more than satisfactory. However, the G36 barrel is 3.78 inches long. The original question arises out of my being in the process of attaining a 3.5" barrel Officer sized 1911.

Man thats great, and you bet, that's plenty pard !

That 3.5" ain't that much to dance about over 3.78 amigo. If ya don't like the results, then hand load your own if you can. If your getting 850fps in the G36, then I see no problem with the 3.5" just a few fps difference i assure you.


Good luck. Gotta run.


Stay safe amigo.






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Old 01-26-2013, 14:11   #25
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Speer makes .45acp for shorter barrels...although it looks like they consider 4" a short barrel.....

http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx

Gold Dot Short Barrel Personal Protection - 45 Auto


Part Number Cartridge
Bullet Wt. Bullet Type Box Count Bullet Coefficient
23975 45 Auto 230 GDHP-SB 20 0.148

Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards
820 783 749 343 313 287

Trajectory if sighted at 25 yards Test Barrel Length in inches Usage
25 yards
50 yards
75 yards
100 yards
0.0 -2.5 -8.5 -18.3 4 1
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Old 01-27-2013, 07:52   #26
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I guess we XD-s 45ers are SOL since we all have 3.3"bbl?
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:43   #27
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I guess we XD-s 45ers are SOL since we all have 3.3"bbl?
Yup, we could save a lot of trouble by just throwing the bullets, we don't need the gun since the barrel is too short.


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Old 01-28-2013, 15:19   #28
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Yup, we could save a lot of trouble by just throwing the bullets, we don't need the gun since the barrel is too short.











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Old 01-29-2013, 08:38   #29
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The magtech 185gr +p round looks very good out of the 3-inch barrel.
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Old 01-30-2013, 13:43   #30
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It appears that 1911 with 3" barrels are becoming more and more popular for carry.
So what? I mean, really? They're seemingly becoming more marketable to sell, at any rate. But yes, some folks "like" small guns ...

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Without doubt, the 3" barrel will have a velocity loss from a 5" barrel.
Naturally. The thing to consider, though, is whether the specific hollowpoint design chosen for dedicated defensive use in a short-barreled .45 has been designed by the manufacturer to robustly & consistently expand (within reason, depending on the circumstances) when fired from short-barreled pistols.

Tweaking the hollowpoint design so the desired expansion occurs within a velocity window with a lower threshold is something some manufacturers appear to have had their engineers working on.


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Is anyone aware of any terminal ballistics tests for these short barrel 1911s?
A little. I've seen & learned of some occasional gel testing done. I've stopped concerning myself overly much with this subject after having chosen a small selection of modern hollowpoint designs for use in my short-barreled .45's, at least 2 of which are commonly available on the commercial market (meaning not ordinarily restricted to LE/Gov sales).

Here's the thing, though ...

If you're talking about subcompact 1911-style pistols, then I'd be much more concerned about whether a particular load/bullet design would consistently & reliably feed & function in any particular pistol, and that the specific magazines being used would work with that ammo & pistol.

After all, it's not uncommon to hear how reduced size 1911-style pistols are often less tolerant of both shooter & ammo influences than larger 1911's. I remember when experienced owners & users still looked askance at 4 1/4" Commanders when it came to consistently reliable feeding & functioning with hollowpoints, preferring 5" guns for their more established functioning.

Nowadays the "Commander length" has come to be accepted as 4 1/4" or 4" guns, and shorter barreled guns of 1911 & other style guns have been produced with barrels running 3", 3.25", 3.5", 3.75" & 3.78". The reaction of some of the major American ammo companies seems to have been to start taking into account the presence of shorter barreled plainclothes, off-duty & UC weapons being used by their LE/Gov clients ... as well as the private owner.

So ... my first and foremost concern is whether the potential defensive ammo selection I'm making will offer me consistently reliable feeding & functioning, especially under demanding drills (1 & 2-handed, strong & non-dominant hand, barricade/cover, shooting while moving & while being stationary, hot & cold, wet & dry, blowing wind, etc).

Then I look into the reported expansion & penetration of the rounds which demonstrate good feeding & functioning.

I don't limit myself to just a single type of hollowpoint, though.

First of all, I've had my duty & approved purchase loads change from time to time.

Secondly, supply & demand & manufacturing issues can interrupt consistent availability of any particular load.

At the moment I have 230gr Win RA45T & RA45TP (+P) T-Series, 230gr Rem Golden Sabre HPJ (BJHP, non-bonded) & Speer 230gr Gold Dot HP among my usual carry loads. I have older stocks of other old-style JHP's still among my ammo collection, which I'd use if that was all I had at hand at some moment in time (and I've done so) ... but that's because they've demonstrated acceptable feeding & functioning in my guns, in my hands, and have done so upon repeated occasions for training, practice & quals.

The gun's gotta reliably & consistently feed & run with whatever is selected.

The shooter's gotta be able to get the gun & ammo to run in his/her hands, under all perceived & anticipated conditions likely to be experienced.

The particular gun & magazines gotta be maintained so they continue to reliably work with that ammo, in that shooter's hands.

It might be prudent to consider periodic retesting of new boxes/production lots of the selected ammo, to confirm continued optimal feeding & functioning.

After all that? Sure, given my druthers I'd prefer to have one of the more modern designed hollowpoints that offer increased potential to "ballistically perform" when fired from short-barreled .45's ... but the gun & shooter's gotta be able to get them to the intended threat target, right?

Just my thoughts ...
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Old 01-31-2013, 17:17   #31
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I wonder how much a .45 JHP would expand at 800 FPS?
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Old 01-31-2013, 17:22   #32
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I wonder how much a .45 JHP would expand at 800 FPS?
I think it's kind of moot to ponder because it depends on what it hits and any expansion at all is going to leave the #2 choice way back
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Old 01-31-2013, 17:22   #33
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I wonder how much a .45 JHP would expand at 800 FPS?
The fast answer amigo, is it depends on what they hit. The 2nd part to that, is it 'don't matter,' as long as they get to the vitals, that is the goal. If they don't get there, why use 'em...



Stay safe pard.







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Old 01-31-2013, 17:28   #34
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I keep forgetting that the .45 doesn't have to expand much. It is already at .45 caliber.
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Old 01-31-2013, 18:50   #35
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I wonder how much a .45 JHP would expand at 800 FPS?
I would have confidence in a 230grn HST or maybe a Gold Dot Short Barrel ammo.
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Old 01-31-2013, 21:23   #36
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When we talk about defensive round we seem to separate the bullet performance from the pistol.

Did you ever stand back and watch folks shooting their compact 1911 45 acp at the range? 1 in 10 can actually shoot their 1911 compact defensively. They carefully aim the sights for several seconds. It is as if the test is for the smallest group size.

230 gr top end defensive ammo lifts barrel on my 3" kimber. You have practice and be pretty strong to get to get 3 shots off with good splits.

I think the Speer 165 gr short barrel round is more controllable. I have ran test in the bullet. I think it will work. Well if you think 3 shots in 4 - 6 inch group centered on the chest is good enough at 7 yds.
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Old 01-31-2013, 21:35   #37
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I wonder how much a .45 JHP would expand at 800 FPS?
230gr Winchester Ranger SXT/T-Series, standard and +P versions, fired from a 3.25" CS45 into a gel block covered by 4 layers of new denim (can't remember if it was 14oz or 16ox at the moment), recorded at 802fps & 839fps, as I recall (I'd have to find my notes at home).

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Interestingly enough, one of the same loads didn't fully expand when fired out of a Commander (4.25"), even though it produced more velocity. At a guess, maybe a couple of the nose cavity/petal notches weren't cut in the normal/intended manner. Dunno.

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Old 02-01-2013, 09:36   #38
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230gr Winchester Ranger SXT/T-Series, standard and +P versions, fired from a 3.25" CS45 into a gel block covered by 4 layers of new denim (can't remember if it was 14oz or 16ox at the moment), recorded at 802fps & 839fps, as I recall (I'd have to find my notes at home).

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Interestingly enough, one of the same loads didn't fully expand when fired out of a Commander (4.25"), even though it produced more velocity. At a guess, maybe a couple of the nose cavity/petal notches weren't cut in the normal/intended manner. Dunno.

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What kind of penetration did they get amigo ?






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Old 02-01-2013, 11:03   #39
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230gr Winchester Ranger SXT/T-Series, standard and +P versions, fired from a 3.25" CS45 into a gel block covered by 4 layers of new denim (can't remember if it was 14oz or 16ox at the moment), recorded at 802fps & 839fps, as I recall (I'd have to find my notes at home).

Caliber Corner
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Interestingly enough, one of the same loads didn't fully expand when fired out of a Commander (4.25"), even though it produced more velocity. At a guess, maybe a couple of the nose cavity/petal notches weren't cut in the normal/intended manner. Dunno.

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Awesome expansion!
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Old 02-01-2013, 11:49   #40
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What kind of penetration did they get amigo ?
CM
Found an earlier listing when I had my notes at hand ...

In the CS45, the standard pressure load did 802fps/13"pen/.77" expansion, and the +P load did 839fps/12"/.76".

In the Colt Commander we saw the standard pressure round do 846fps/14"/.79" and the +P round do 901fps/11.5"/.77"

Who knows what more rounds might've exhibited, as there aren't any guarantees.
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