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Old 02-06-2013, 10:26   #21
EL_NinO619
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
I haven't used this type of trimmer but I am curious... Not so much about the WFT but about the overall process and why it varies.

Since the WFT indexes off the shoulder, and assuming there are no loose pieces (some mechanical problem) inside the cutter, it would seem to me that the distance from some place on the shoulder to the case mouth would come out exact after trimming.

But, if the shoulder isn't always in the same place, OAL would vary even if the shoulder to case mouth distance was exact. I just can't figure out why the shoulder would be different depending on brass manufacturer after it has been resized. Unless, of course, the shoulder was already too far back and the resizing die didn't bump it at all.

I suppose there could be a difference in 'spring back' between various manufacturers. The die pushes the shoulder back but after the die is removed, the shoulder springs back a little. But 0.035" seems like a lot.

I think I would be using a case gauge to see how the shoulder location varies among cases after resizing but before trimming and then again after trimming to see how the OAL is varying.

There's something odd when a mechanical process has that much variation.

Richard
Could it be the difference in 5.56 vs .223
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:32   #22
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Has all the brass been fired in the same chamber?

If not then the shoulder on some brass could be shaped differently then on other brass. Even if the die has pushed it back.

This is just a guess,
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Old 02-06-2013, 17:05   #23
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All my 223-556 brass is range pickup.
It has all been fired from different guns.
Most of it really is once fired because the police and border patrol guys get there ammo for free and don't bother to pick it the brass.

I would imagine that the cutter is cutting very close to exact from the place it measures on the brass. But with different manufactures and being shot from different guns and the entire case OAL varies way to much.
I will sort through and try to get twenty or so of the same brad to try.
I currently have around 5 thousand cases I need to process. There is just no way I want to spend the time it would take to sort by manufacture. I will email Little Crow and see if they have a suggestion. If I could just end up with everything between 1.750 and 1.760 I would be happy.
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Old 02-06-2013, 21:15   #24
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From what I saw in the video, the WTF works the same as the Kwick Trimmer by Possum Hollow (I own two of them - .223 & .308/.243). Richard, you're spot on from what my theory is after having used the KT for the last two years. While the trimming will be consistent, based on the shoulder datum point, it will not be consistent for case OL. How this matters when the finished round is fired is beyond me at the moment. As no two chambers will be alike, I suppose that minor differences have no real effect if you are working with RPU brass. I have experienced a minor variation in case OL but do not let that bother me. The cannelure on .223 bullets is wide enough to accept the variation.

In my estimation (and excluding new unfired brass), any trimmer that does NOT make the cut based on the shoulder datum but instead off the base of the case (Wilson, RCBS, Lee, Dillon RT, etc.) will give a much more consistent case OL.
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Old 02-06-2013, 21:39   #25
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mine works great and is accurate...but if I were to load ALOT of 223 I might look at something else...but the WFT works good enough for me.
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Old 02-06-2013, 21:49   #26
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Assuming you are right. How short of a OAL is going to be Ok to load?

Currently loading 55 gr midsouth bullets.
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Old 02-06-2013, 21:57   #27
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Assuming you are right. How short of a OAL is going to be Ok to load?

Currently loading 55 gr midsouth bullets.
The SAAMI spec is 1.760" - 0.020" or 1.740" on the short side. If you were using an RCBS X-Die, for example, you would be expected to trim to 1.740"

Since this brass has never been fired in your rifle, why not leave it as long as possible and fire it? Then when you resize and trim, you can be assured that the shoulder is consistent. At least it should be if the sizing die doesn't push it too far back. Again, I would look at this with a case gauge because it too indexes on the shoulder.

Richard
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Old 02-06-2013, 22:02   #28
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I size and then trim down to 1.745 with the RT1200B no issues...
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Old 02-06-2013, 22:25   #29
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Thanks Richard. 1.740

I am trying not to be to pickey and settle for anything between 1.750 and 1.760 But I don't want to throw away useable brass.

I think I will sort the shorter ones out and use them with some heaver loads.
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Old 02-07-2013, 00:48   #30
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Quote:
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Made a mistake. It a Forster 3-1 Case Mouth Cutter.
Oh well. Thanks.
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:41   #31
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Thanks Richard. 1.740

I am trying not to be to pickey and settle for anything between 1.750 and 1.760 But I don't want to throw away useable brass.

I think I will sort the shorter ones out and use them with some heaver loads.
The difference between 1.750" and 1.760" is two and a half sheets of common printer paper!

For precision rifle, I like to reduce the variation as much as possible but I realize that a crappy trigger squeeze puts more error at the target than anything I could mess up reloading.

For a semiauto, I just don't think two and a half sheets of printer paper makes much difference.

The limit of accuracy for my shooting is me, not the ammo.

Richard
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:51   #32
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Thanks Richard. 1.740

I am trying not to be to pickey and settle for anything between 1.750 and 1.760 But I don't want to throw away useable brass.

I think I will sort the shorter ones out and use them with some heaver loads.
Mike, I was thinking about your situation... it doesn't make sense to me that you are getting that much variance in your shoulder set-back, even with mixed brass.
Have you measured your set-back? I personally think, your current sizing setting isn't far enough down to account for the different chambers your brass was fired from.
I set my dies to match the tighter of my 2 AR chambers (Rainier .223 Wylde), minus 0.002 This equates to being just shy of of the shoulder setback of new M193 LC brass.
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:12   #33
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Damn now you all have me second guessing myself. I have been looking at the RCBS power pro 110 volt trimmer with the three way cutting head. Looking at the Dillon they are very close in price. The difference is the Dillon won't chamfer and debur. What about depriming. Do you have to use a universal decaper with the Dillon trimmer?
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:38   #34
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For blasting ammo most people don't deburr. Dillon cuts clean. On the 550 you just deprive and size in station 1 and trim in 2. No big deal.
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:01   #35
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I use a Dillon FL sizing die with carbide ball set to my wanted shoulder set back at station one. I adjust the RT1200B die just off the already desired shoulder set back at station 4. This way it doesn't size any further. You adjust the motor to the appropriate height off the die to set your trim length. The RT1200B cuts so clean, deburing isn't required and chamfering only if not loading boat tail bullets. Just tumble in dry corncob to remove the lube and it will knock off any minor burrs that may occur.
The secret is consistent pressure on the press handle and using the right amount of lube. I would even have to negate what C4W said about blasting ammo, you can load some good precision stuff too. I have sized and trimmed sorted once fired LC brass as above, loaded them with Nosler 55-60g BT "Ballistic Tip" bullets that have resulted in half MOA loads out to 300 yards. When I load for Heavy 77g flat bottom bullets. I simply put a slight chamfer using a VLD chamfering bit on my Hornady case prep assistant.
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:20   #36
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Ok the Dillon is starting to sound like the winner here. I was going to install the trimmer on my classic turret press. So I can lube and size in my Lee sizing die and and then run the case into the Dillon size/trim die without lubing again? I will also be using BT bullets so I guess I won't have to chamfer.
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Old 02-07-2013, 12:58   #37
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Ok the Dillon is starting to sound like the winner here. I was going to install the trimmer on my classic turret press. So I can lube and size in my Lee sizing die and and then run the case into the Dillon size/trim die without lubing again? I will also be using BT bullets so I guess I won't have to chamfer.
You could try but I don't think it would be a good move. The movement of the turret would be a concern with the motor power cord and vacuum hose attachment. I would just get a dedicated 550 tool head, use your 550 and utilize the auto eject feature. That will be one less time you would have to handle a case for every round you size/trim. You only need to lube once, them tumble the sized and trimmed cases. Swage primer pockets as necessary. Then run a loading toolhead on your 550 with a universal decap die at station one to push any stuck media out of the flash holes.
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Old 02-07-2013, 16:06   #38
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You could try but I don't think it would be a good move. The movement of the turret would be a concern with the motor power cord and vacuum hose attachment. I would just get a dedicated 550 tool head, use your 550 and utilize the auto eject feature. That will be one less time you would have to handle a case for every round you size/trim. You only need to lube once, them tumble the sized and trimmed cases. Swage primer pockets as necessary. Then run a loading toolhead on your 550 with a universal decap die at station one to push any stuck media out of the flash holes.
Sounds good. I think I will go for the tool head and use the 550. I was going to use the CT in single stage mode but the 550 sounds better. I also tumble after loaded to remove the lube so if I can lube once and size and trim then the dillon on my 550 is the winner. Thanks for all your help.
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Old 02-07-2013, 18:20   #39
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Well this isn't very helpful.

Quote:
I'm guessing your dealing with some machine gun range brass. apparently the headspace on some machine guns is way too short. Firing cartridges with short headspace could actually be a dangerous condition leading to head separations and chamber bursts.

Try trimming some brass with the same head stamp that has been fireformed in your own chambers and see if the fluctuation goes away.
He did offer a refund. I would like to work it out if I can but if not I will take him up on it.
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Old 02-07-2013, 20:38   #40
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Rusty,

Bypass the RCBS power trimmer altogether. I have one with a 3-way cutter and it works great, but entirely too slow if you are trimmer large quantities of brass. I switched to the WFT, but getting variances from 1.735 to 1.750. Thinking about sending back to Midway and buying the RT-1200.
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