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Old 01-21-2013, 15:50   #41
steveksux
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
If it was created, and that could be proven, it would be science.
And if your aunt had balls, and she proved it to you, she'd be your uncle.

If you're a surgeon, and you refuse to operate on anyone since you believe in healing through prayer as part of your religion, damn right you can be fired for your religious beliefs.

Randy
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Old 01-21-2013, 15:55   #42
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Skipped over a very significant issue, didn't you?

If it were created, and as an agnostic atheist, that should still be at least a little possible, wouldn't it be science?

Science is the discovery of what is, and if we discovered that life were created, that most certainly would not exclude the teaching of evolution, and creation would simply be another detail of the natural order of the world.


I'd think until it's settled, and there is irrefutable proof one way or the other, they should both be discussed. Education requires critical thinking, examining opposing viewpoints, and reaching conclusions.

Your version sounds a lot more like indoctrination.
Anything you can imagine might be true does not rise to the level of science. Its got to be falsifiable, there has to be evidence of it.

It's possible fairies stole your brain from the sound of your post.

Until there's actual evidence of the fairies, or your brain, it is not science.

Randy

Last edited by steveksux; 01-21-2013 at 15:57..
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Old 01-21-2013, 15:57   #43
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Originally Posted by steveksux View Post
And if your aunt had balls, and she proved it to you, she'd be your uncle.

If you're a surgeon, and you refuse to operate on anyone since you believe in healing through prayer as part of your religion, damn right you can be fired for your religious beliefs.

Randy
Steve,

What if my Aunt had Baseballs? What then? Your statement fails with just a small amount of consideration.

In medicine, there is an acceptable standard of care. Usually, when a peer review is done, it is decided whether most of your peers would have acted in a similar manner, whether some of your peers would have acted in a similar manner, or whether most of your peers would have done something different. I've done a few peer reviews.

So, the bottom line, on the subject of the beginning of life on this planet, is that you really just don't want to consider the other possibilities as possible, and you want only what you believe taught. Is that a correct appreciation of your position?

For some reason, that just does not seem right to me.
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Old 01-21-2013, 15:59   #44
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Anything you can imagine might be true does not rise to the level of science. Its got to be falsifiable, there has to be evidence of it.

It's possible fairies stole your brain from the sound of your post.

Until there's actual evidence of the fairies, or your brain, it is not science.

Randy
Steve, don't go all ad hom because you are feeling discomfort and unsure again.
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Old 01-21-2013, 16:00   #45
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Steve,

What if my Aunt had Baseballs? What then? Your statement fails with just a small amount of consideration.

In medicine, there is an acceptable standard of care. Usually, when a peer review is done, it is decided whether most of your peers would have acted in a similar manner, whether some of your peers would have acted in a similar manner, or whether most of your peers would have done something different. I've done a few peer reviews.

So, the bottom line, on the subject of the beginning of life on this planet, is that you really just don't want to consider the other possibilities as possible, and you want only what you believe taught. Is that a correct appreciation of your position?
So your position is that every creation myth out there from any past or present religion should be cluttering up a science class rather than teaching science? There's no evidence one way or another which creation myths are more or less likely. No reason to exclude any of them by your ridiculous criteria.

What do you think science classes currently teach about how life started?

I think the fairies had to leave empty handed.

Quote:

For some reason, that just does not seem right to me.
Anytime a troll disagrees with my point, it gives me more confidence I'm right;

Randy

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Old 01-21-2013, 16:03   #46
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Steve, don't go all ad hom because you are feeling discomfort and unsure again.
Of course, the troll ignores the point and pretends its an ad hom.

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Anything you can imagine might be true does not rise to the level of science. Its got to be falsifiable, there has to be evidence of it.
Randy

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Old 01-21-2013, 16:05   #47
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So your position is that every creation myth out there from any past or present religion should be cluttering up a science class rather than teaching science?

I think the fairies got away empty handed.

Anytime a troll disagrees with my point, it gives me more confidence I'm right;

Randy
My position is that you should really stay away from the non sequitur and strawman arguments.

Your mother had such high hopes for you..... sigh. Not everyone gets what they wish for.

Anyway,

There is a very rational (I know, it's difficult for you but try to keep up) way to state that the reality of the situation is that we don't know everything. It takes a humble (or honest) human to admit that one. One of the things humans don't fully understand is how the very first forms of life appeared on this planet. There are many theories. Once it was started however, it's almost certain that a process of adaptation and evolution has led to the current diversity of life as we know it. We can't even be sure if there were several different origins, or a single one.
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Old 01-21-2013, 16:09   #48
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Of course, the troll ignores the point and pretends its an ad hom.

Randy
Was that the point about fairies and brain theft? Was that what your point is? How much do you know about neurology? Without a brain, physically, how could I possibly respond to your post? Have you ever really evaluated your own critical thinking skills? I believe you have one (a brain), just that you don't know how to use it too well, as evidenced by your rapid decent into childish behavior, again.

You always get so upset when people make you think.
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Old 01-21-2013, 16:14   #49
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My position is that you should really stay away from the non sequitur and strawman arguments.
Then you should be able to do so once in a while.

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Your mother had such high hopes for you..... sigh. Not everyone gets what they wish for.

Anyway,
Sounds like your mother must be disappointed as well. You're simply doing the same thing you accuse me of.

Quote:

There is a very rational (I know, it's difficult for you but try to keep up) way to state that the reality of the situation is that we don't know everything. It takes a humble (or honest) human to admit that one
Don't feel so bad for failing so miserably at it then.

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One of the things humans don't fully understand is how the very first forms of life appeared on this planet.
Right.
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There are many theories.
Wrong. There are many creation myths. They are not science.

There are few theories, and science does not claim to know for sure which is true. That is what belongs in science class. It's very hard for you to admit that since you insist on your obsessive trolling about random beliefs somehow equating to science.

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Once it was started however, it's almost certain that a process of adaptation and evolution has led to the current diversity of life as we know it. We can't even be sure if there were several different origins, or a single one.
Everything one might believe is not science. Teach science in science class. Should be simple enough for a honest reasonable person to admit that.

Which is why you can't.

But lets pretend you're really trying to make a serious point here instead of trolling. If we are to believe you're sincere about what constitutes science worthy of being in a science class:

Many people here believe you're a troll. You can't prove you're not a troll.

Therefore, it is a valid scientific theory that you are in fact a troll, and it should be taught in a science class.

It's not quite an air tight analogy. After all, we have plenty of actual evidence in the form of your posts that you are in fact a troll. Which is way moire evidence than any of the creation myths you pretend to believe are valid scientific beliefs that belong in science classes.

Randy

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Old 01-21-2013, 16:17   #50
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But, back to the original question that was asked that I answered, and you still have not said exactly what problem you have with that answer remains.
I did not ask that question, but you are quoting that question out of context. Color me unsurprised.

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If it's ignorant to consider creationism as a Christian Religious view... why is it religious discrimination even if they did lay him off for accepting creationism?
As Bren noted in different words, given the *full* context of that question, it is asking how someone can claim that ID is not a religious position, but claim religious discrimination on the basis of belief in ID.

And given that ID proponents in fact claim that ID is not a religious position, it's quite apropos, actually, given that the Discovery Institute has claimed that ID is not a religious position, yet funded/supported this lawsuit claiming religious discrimination due to someone's belief in ID.
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Old 01-21-2013, 16:29   #51
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I did not ask that question, but you are quoting that question out of context. Color me unsurprised.



As Bren noted in different words, given the *full* context of that question, it is asking how someone can claim that ID is not a religious position, but claim religious discrimination on the basis of belief in ID.

And given that ID proponents in fact claim that ID is not a religious position, it's quite apropos, actually, given that the Discovery Institute has claimed that ID is not a religious position, yet funded/supported this lawsuit claiming religious discrimination due to someone's belief in ID.
ID is simply another claim about how life began. Yes, there are some theists that argue that ID is a scientific claim. If that seals the deal, lets use that same logic in another way.


There are no less than two atheist churches, is atheism a religion? Can we finally agree on that and put that little tiny issue behind us?
A court ruled that atheism was a person's religion, and that it was deserving of the same protections.



Same logic. Some over here use this argument, so you must use it too.
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Old 01-21-2013, 16:35   #52
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Then you should be able to do so once in a while.

...
Steve,

You started it, don't cry too much when it's pointed out to you.

You tend to get all irritated when someone points out that you might just not know as much as you think you do. If you aren't secure in your own beliefs, explore others. Maybe just become comfortable that you are a infinitesimally small collection of molecules and processes that has experienced only the tiniest fraction of what the universe really is.

Compared to the age of the universe, stated as a fraction, how long have you been out if high school? How far have you traveled, even in your own tiny little solar system?




It's been said in many different ways by many different people, but the more you know, the more you realize what you have yet to learn.
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Old 01-21-2013, 16:42   #53
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Steve,

You started it, don't cry too much when it's pointed out to you.
Your the one that started whining about it. Not me. Perhaps you should stop crying.

Quote:

You tend to get all irritated when someone points out that you might just not know as much as you think you do. If you aren't secure in your own beliefs, explore others. Maybe just become comfortable that you are a infinitesimally small collection of molecules and processes that has experienced only the tiniest fraction of what the universe really is.

Compared to the age of the universe, stated as a fraction, how long have you been out if high school? How far have you traveled, even in your own tiny little solar system?




It's been said in many different ways by many different people, but the more you know, the more you realize what you have yet to learn.
So just to underscore the point you keep ignoring, anything anyone believes that cannot be disproven is not a scientific theory and does not does not belong in science class.

Cavalry doc's science textbook:
Page 1. Earth.

Religious Issues

Randy

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Old 01-21-2013, 16:56   #54
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Your the one that started whining about it. Not me. Perhaps you should stop crying.



So just to underscore the point you keep ignoring, anything anyone believes that cannot be disproven is not a scientific theory and does not does not belong in science class.

Randy
I'm not even sure you understand the question, let alone what the potentially correct answers are.

Evolution is a very reasonable theory, it's more than likely occurring. When Darwin first observed cells, he thought there were only a few pieces to them, and that they were very simple structures.

We've since learned that cells are not simple at all.
Don't be afraid, watch the video.



They are complex structures with relatively distant and co-dependent systems that must all function in perfect harmony just to achieve homeostasis (google it if you don't know what that is). Now, that same very complex structure able to react to it's surroundings and internal conditions to achieve reproduction of just a copy of itself is amazingly complex. To achieve reproduction of a genetically individual, but like organism is even more amazing.


So, knowing that, really asks more questions than it answers. Throwing bowls full of primordial goop on the floor will not make "life".

Think about it for a while.
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Old 01-21-2013, 16:59   #55
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I'm not even sure you understand the question, let alone what the potentially correct answers are.

Evolution is a very reasonable theory, it's more than likely occurring. When Darwin first observed cells, he thought there were only a few pieces to them, and that they were very simple structures.

We've since learned that cells are not simple at all.
Don't be afraid, watch the video.

The Staggering Complexity Of The Cell - EXPELLED - Video


They are complex structures with relatively distant and co-dependent systems that must all function in perfect harmony just to achieve homeostasis (google it if you don't know what that is). Now, that same very complex structure able to react to it's surroundings and internal conditions to achieve reproduction of just a copy of itself is amazingly complex. To achieve reproduction of a genetically individual, but like organism is even more amazing.


So, knowing that, really asks more questions than it answers.
The main question being, don't you know that irreducable complexity has already been debunked?

Quote:
Throwing bowls full of primordial goop on the floor will not make "life".

Think about it for a while.
Perhaps you need to start thinking about it.

Evolution does not have anything to do with how life arose initially. Nothing about primordial bowls of soup in Evolutionary theory.

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I'm not even sure you understand the question, let alone what the potentially correct answers are.
Quoted for hilarity.
Obviously, it is YOU who does not understand the question.
Or trolling. As usual.

Randy

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Old 01-21-2013, 17:12   #56
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The main question being, don't you know that irreducable complexity has already been debunked?

Perhaps you need to start thinking about it.

Evolution does not have anything to do with how life arose initially. Nothing about primordial bowls of soup in Evolutionary theory.

Quoted for hilarity.
Obviously, it is YOU who does not understand the question.
Or trolling. As usual.

Randy
First, I noticed you puszed out on watching the video.

Second, I'm not claiming something did happen because it's too hard for it to have happened any other way. I'm claiming it is possible.

Your claiming that it's not possible is just illustrative of your inability to consider any other possibilities that you find comforting.

None of us were there, and among the two of us, you are claiming that only one possibility is possible, and I'm just saying the question is unanswered. The amusing part is that you don't even realize your logical misstep.

You are claiming knowledge of that which you have none. And then thumping your chest like a very small primate claiming victory.

Thog make fire yet?
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Old 01-21-2013, 17:13   #57
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Or trolling. As usual.
This... all day... everyday... in every way.
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Old 01-21-2013, 17:16   #58
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This... all day... everyday... in every way.
lazy illustrated.
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Old 01-21-2013, 17:24   #59
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Second, I'm not claiming something did happen because it's too hard for it to have happened any other way. I'm claiming it is possible.
Forgive me for taking a snippet of your post to address, but are you claiming that in a given scenario, you give all possibilities equal weight?
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Old 01-21-2013, 17:49   #60
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Forgive me for taking a snippet of your post to address, but are you claiming that in a given scenario, you give all possibilities equal weight?
Nope, not at all. It's not very likely that Steveksux really knows steve case.

But can we agree that there was a moment, when life as we know it, cellular life, existed on earth, and did not the moment prior.

That moment, something interesting happened. Something rather profound really. I have no friggin' idea how that happened, but it was obviously not a simple process. It was either brought here, just happened, or was designed, or just nudged along, and many other possible mixtures of different theories.

The fact is that we really don't know how life first arrive on earth. A lot of people wished they knew, me included. Many more believe they know. That's where you start running into trouble. There are some guys, steve for instance, that are so sure they know that life just happened without any outside influence, and has no flippin' clue on how to explain how he believes that without knowing. But he's got plenty of jokes, ad homs, strawman arguments etc. Most of that is just evidence of him not liking his religious beliefs questioned.

So, maybe there weren't other mystical creatures. But I have no problems with understanding how people arrived at those beliefs. Dragon's for instance. Komodo dragons exist. Dinosaur bones might make people consider that dragons exist. Religious Issues

Of course as people learn more, they realize what they know, and on occasion, the smart ones realize what they really don't know. I've noticed that many people are hesitant to admit their own ignorance, even when an overabundance of ignorance is present.
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