GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-15-2013, 11:50   #1
hooligan74
Senior Member
 
hooligan74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 2,787
Atheism, Theism and Agnosticism

It seems to me that there is a fairly pervasive misunderstanding of these terms within our society. Here they are as I understand them to be:

Theism: A belief in a god or gods.

Atheism: A lack of belief in a god or gods.

Agnosticism: A lack of certain knowledge regarding the existence of a god or gods - or, in some cases, the belief that knowledge of the existence of a god or gods is unattainable.

If the above definitions are accurate, then one cannot simply describe themselves at "agnostic", they are either agnostic theists or agnostic atheists.

What say you?
hooligan74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 12:08   #2
Syclone538
Senior Member
 
Syclone538's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,346
First, anyone that hasn't seen it should look at
Why is it so hard to admit Atheism is a Religion?
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1282322

2300 posts and never agreed upon.



Religious Issues





CD, someone that has never heard of any god and never heard of any religion, are they...
theist?
atheist?
gnostic?
agnostic?

I would very much apreciate a yes or no for each of the four.
__________________
Some people want freedom, even for those they disagree with, and some don't.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Quote:
...
The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
...
Syclone538 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 12:12   #3
Glock36shooter
Senior Member
 
Glock36shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,159
Guess that makes me an Agnostic Atheist.
Glock36shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 12:29   #4
dbcooper
Senior Member
 
dbcooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,138
I don't believe in Athiests
__________________
A broad brush paints a lousy picture, lacking the nuance and details of life's realities. As a young man my paints were black and white, with age came a palette holding many shades of gray.
dbcooper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 12:56   #5
Geko45
CLM Number 135
Smartass Pilot
 
Geko45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Short final
Posts: 14,317


Nope, not gonna do it...

__________________
Peace is our profession, war is just a hobby...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Geko45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 13:02   #6
Bren
NRA Life Member
 
Bren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 35,001
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbcooper View Post
I don't believe in Athiests

I have often said the same about theists.

Based on logic and observing alleged theists, I don't believe anybody really believes in god/gods. Among other reasons - First, they seem to have an unsually hard time following simple moral rules that an atheist like me has no problem with - making me very skeptical of how strong their belief in the threat/reward of religion is. Second, they are very, almost hysterically, afraid of letting in any knowledge that could shake their beliefs and are very strict about avoiding contact with evidence or argument that undermines their beliefs. Even those willing to argue, in this forum, are often angry about atheist input.

It's the conduct of people who want to believe, not people who do believe.
__________________
"Liberal" is when you hire others to use a guns to protect you, so you can pretend guns aren't necessary.

Last edited by Bren; 01-15-2013 at 13:03..
Bren is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 13:05   #7
hooligan74
Senior Member
 
hooligan74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 2,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
Guess that makes me an Agnostic Atheist.

You and me both, Glock36. I lack a belief in any gods, but I don't claim to *know* that no gods exist. I don't ascribe to the belief that God/gods are not knowable, however.

Last edited by hooligan74; 01-15-2013 at 13:06..
hooligan74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 13:23   #8
hooligan74
Senior Member
 
hooligan74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 2,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syclone538 View Post
First, anyone that hasn't seen it should look at
Why is it so hard to admit Atheism is a Religion?
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1282322

2300 posts and never agreed upon...

Ah, thanks! I didn't know there was a genesis (sorry for the religious pun) for this debate - I picked up on it from some of CavDoc's posts in the political forum.

So, it would appear that CD has cemented the fact that he is agnostic, but seems reluctant to answer whether he is an agnostic atheist or agnostic theist.

He further appears to have the mistaken notion that atheism requires an absolute belief of the lack of gods, versus a lack of belief that gods exist. I'll admit it is a nuanced difference, but an important one, IMO.
hooligan74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 13:29   #9
dbcooper
Senior Member
 
dbcooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
I have often said the same about theists.

Based on logic and observing alleged theists, I don't believe anybody really believes in god/gods. Among other reasons - First, they seem to have an unsually hard time following simple moral rules that an atheist like me has no problem with - making me very skeptical of how strong their belief in the threat/reward of religion is. Second, they are very, almost hysterically, afraid of letting in any knowledge that could shake their beliefs and are very strict about avoiding contact with evidence or argument that undermines their beliefs. Even those willing to argue, in this forum, are often angry about atheist input.

It's the conduct of people who want to believe, not people who do believe.
I's jus funnin
__________________
A broad brush paints a lousy picture, lacking the nuance and details of life's realities. As a young man my paints were black and white, with age came a palette holding many shades of gray.
dbcooper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 13:59   #10
Geko45
CLM Number 135
Smartass Pilot
 
Geko45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Short final
Posts: 14,317


Quote:
Originally Posted by Syclone538 View Post
Religious Issues
In the hopes that some useful discussion can actually come out of this thread (unlikely), I do have a question/problem with the graph. I like the idea overall, but there is a coordinate on this chart that doesn't make sense. Imagine an individual that is 100% on the y-axis (completely gnostic), but also located at exactly zero on the x-axis (midway between theist and atheist). What would that person be 100% certain of exactly?
__________________
Peace is our profession, war is just a hobby...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by Geko45; 01-15-2013 at 14:06..
Geko45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 14:58   #11
hooligan74
Senior Member
 
hooligan74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 2,787
I can't see the graph (blocked by USAF firewall), but it sounds like they would be 100% certain that they don't know if they believe in gods or not?
hooligan74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 15:20   #12
muscogee
Senior Member
 
muscogee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,841


Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
It seems to me that there is a fairly pervasive misunderstanding of these terms within our society. Here they are as I understand them to be:

Theism: A belief in a god or gods.

Atheism: A lack of belief in a god or gods.

Agnosticism: A lack of certain knowledge regarding the existence of a god or gods - or, in some cases, the belief that knowledge of the existence of a god or gods is unattainable.

If the above definitions are accurate, then one cannot simply describe themselves at "agnostic", they are either agnostic theists or agnostic atheists.

What say you?
You're right. Atheists and agnostics are different degrees of the same thing. Knowledgeable atheists don't say there is no God because that is a logically indefensible as saying there is a God. The only logical position for an atheist to take is there is probably no God. This is where the theists get tripped up. They can't say there probably is a God because that implies a lack of faith.
__________________
"We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes."

Leona Helmsley
muscogee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 15:49   #13
hooligan74
Senior Member
 
hooligan74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 2,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
You're right. Atheists and agnostics are different degrees of the same thing. Knowledgeable atheists don't say there is no God because that is a logically indefensible as saying there is a God. The only logical position for an atheist to take is there is probably no God. This is where the theists get tripped up. They can't say there probably is a God because that implies a lack of faith.

Nope, you can be an agnostic theist. You *believe* there is a god/gods, but admit that you don't *know* there is a god/gods. Boom. Agnostic theist.

There are definitely theists and atheists that both claim they *know* that god/gods do/do not exist. Those would be gnostic theists or gnostic atheists.

Last edited by hooligan74; 01-15-2013 at 15:52..
hooligan74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 16:08   #14
hooligan74
Senior Member
 
hooligan74's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 2,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
In the hopes that some useful discussion can actually come out of this thread (unlikely), I do have a question/problem with the graph. I like the idea overall, but there is a coordinate on this chart that doesn't make sense. Imagine an individual that is 100% on the y-axis (completely gnostic), but also located at exactly zero on the x-axis (midway between theist and atheist). What would that person be 100% certain of exactly?

On this topic, however, you have just illustrated how being gnostic or agnostic doesn't paint the whole picture (I assume that's what you were saying in the above post).

You have to be gnostic/agnostic about *something*. You can't simply say "I'm agnostic" as that means nothing without further context.

I'm looking at you Cavalry Doc....

Last edited by hooligan74; 01-15-2013 at 16:08..
hooligan74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 17:05   #15
muscogee
Senior Member
 
muscogee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,841


Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
Nope, you can be an agnostic theist. You *believe* there is a god/gods, but admit that you don't *know* there is a god/gods. Boom. Agnostic theist.

There are definitely theists and atheists that both claim they *know* that god/gods do/do not exist. Those would be gnostic theists or gnostic atheists.
You can't know there is no God so the distinction is a matter of semantics. They're the same thing.
__________________
"We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes."

Leona Helmsley
muscogee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 17:11   #16
Syclone538
Senior Member
 
Syclone538's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,346
Does claiming to know, or thinking you know, count as being gnostic?
__________________
Some people want freedom, even for those they disagree with, and some don't.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Quote:
...
The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
...
Syclone538 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 17:32   #17
Geko45
CLM Number 135
Smartass Pilot
 
Geko45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Short final
Posts: 14,317


Quote:
Originally Posted by Syclone538 View Post
Does claiming to know, or thinking you know, count as being gnostic?
I would think so. You don't have to be right in order to hold an opinion. Plus, the whole point of this sort of graph is that everything is a matter of degree. No one is perfectly gnostic on either side of the debate. The most devout theist would still have a small amount of doubt as they are still only human. I myself could arguably be the most gnostic atheist here as I think the non-existence of any deity can be known with as much certainty as anything can be known (ie 99.999% certain) allowing only for the same probability that I would assign to santa clause or the easter bunny.
__________________
Peace is our profession, war is just a hobby...


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Geko45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 18:14   #18
ColdSteelNail
Senior Member
 
ColdSteelNail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: North Georgia
Posts: 1,854
If atheism is a religion then not collecting stamps is a hobby.
__________________
Aucocorrect is my worst enema.
ColdSteelNail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 18:27   #19
bear62
Senior Member
 
bear62's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Rocky Mountains
Posts: 1,548
There is a God.
bear62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2013, 18:37   #20
muscogee
Senior Member
 
muscogee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 6,841


Quote:
Originally Posted by bear62 View Post
There is a God.
You're right. It's me. I'm God.
__________________
"We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes."

Leona Helmsley
muscogee is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 15:43.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,231
325 Members
906 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42