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Old 01-17-2013, 22:04   #161
ksg0245
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Not by me. I know quite a few atheists in real life that I would trust. Was in combat with many of them (yeah, I know the old saying is not true).

I generally don't like to generalize, but islamic jihadists score much lower on the trust scale than atheists. Of course, as far as I know I have not been shot at by an atheist. Islamic Jihadists, it would take me a while to list all the different things that have been aimed and fired in my direction.
Atheists identified as America's most distrusted minority, according to new U of M study
"MINNEAPOLIS / ST. PAUL (03/28/2006) —American’s increasing acceptance of religious diversity doesn’t extend to those who don’t believe in a god, according to a national survey by researchers in the University of Minnesota’s department of sociology.
From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.
Even though atheists are few in number, not formally organized and relatively hard to publicly identify, they are seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public. “Atheists, who account for about 3 percent of the U.S. population, offer a glaring exception to the rule of increasing social tolerance over the last 30 years,” says Penny Edgell, associate sociology professor and the study’s lead researcher. ..."
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Old 01-17-2013, 22:08   #162
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Atheists identified as America's most distrusted minority, according to new U of M study
"MINNEAPOLIS / ST. PAUL (03/28/2006) —American’s increasing acceptance of religious diversity doesn’t extend to those who don’t believe in a god, according to a national survey by researchers in the University of Minnesota’s department of sociology.
From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.
Even though atheists are few in number, not formally organized and relatively hard to publicly identify, they are seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public. “Atheists, who account for about 3 percent of the U.S. population, offer a glaring exception to the rule of increasing social tolerance over the last 30 years,” says Penny Edgell, associate sociology professor and the study’s lead researcher. ..."
I agree that it happens. But I don't support that at all. You cannot determine "trust" by religious affiliation alone. I've known many men that ran toward the sound of gunfire. My trust in them was based on their own merits. I've known heroes, zero's, and cowards of all religious persuasions.
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Old 01-17-2013, 22:23   #163
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... “Atheists, who account for about 3 percent of the U.S. population,
..."
I was thinking around 10% for some reason.
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Old 01-18-2013, 05:52   #164
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It would be interesting to know what proportion of those distrusting atheists think that they are all socialists, communists or liberals as many on GT do.

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Old 01-18-2013, 06:17   #165
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I was thinking around 10% for some reason.
Probably depends on definitions and questions asked. I've heard 10% or more, don't remember where.
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:38   #166
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It would be interesting to know what proportion of those distrusting atheists think that they are all socialists, communists or liberals as many on GT do.

English
I'm atheist and libertarian almost to the point of being anarchist, so I see the socialist, communist or liberal views in just about everyone.
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:06   #167
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It would be interesting to know what proportion of those distrusting atheists think that they are all socialists, communists or liberals as many on GT do.

English
I consider myself a centrist. That puts me to the left of most Republicans and the right of most Democrats. It puts me far to the left of most posters in GT. I've been moving to the left since 2008 just as I moved to the right after Jimmy Carter.
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:22   #168
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Syclone and muscogee,
You are both atheists so you don't come into what I am talking about. It seems to me that most right wing Christians automatically assume that atheists are liberals and most liberals are atheists. If they were asked how much they trusted liberals they might come up with the same number as if they were asking how much they trusted atheists.

As far as could be told by the press release, the questions were all about religious tolerance. It would have been interesting if they had included liberals and republicans in the questions. That would at least have given some scale to the answers.

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Old 01-18-2013, 09:30   #169
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Syclone and muscogee,
You are both atheists so you don't come into what I am talking about. It seems to me that most right wing Christians automatically assume that atheists are liberals and most liberals are atheists. If they were asked how much they trusted liberals they might come up with the same number as if they were asking how much they trusted atheists.

As far as could be told by the press release, the questions were all about religious tolerance. It would have been interesting if they had included liberals and republicans in the questions. That would at least have given some scale to the answers.

English
That happens both ways. A lot of people assume that libertarians are pot smokers, conservatives are all Christians, liberals are all welfare bums.

Stereotyping happens from all sides.
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:51   #170
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It seems to me that most right wing Christians automatically assume that atheists are liberals and most liberals are atheists.
That has been my experience as well. I've lost tracked of the number of times I've been accused of being a socialist, democrat and/or Obama voter. In actuality, I'm more right in fiscal and political issues than most here. I just don't subscribe to the right-wing social issues (which, ironically, are actually leftist as they require govt regulation to enforce).
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Old 01-18-2013, 18:52   #171
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That has been my experience as well. I've lost tracked of the number of times I've been accused of being a socialist, democrat and/or Obama voter. In actuality, I'm more right in fiscal and political issues than most here. I just don't subscribe to the right-wing social issues (which, ironically, are actually leftist as they require govt regulation to enforce).

Have you also noticed the stereotypical responses from the multiple different flavors of theists, and atheists?

Generally speaking, generalizing is really a bad thing to do.

I get it from all sides of the religious spectrum, not just from the theists. You should walk a mile in my moccasins. You'd learn a lot that way.
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Old 01-18-2013, 20:20   #172
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I was a theist (christian) for the first 38 years of my life. I remember well what it was like on the other side of the fence.
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Old 01-18-2013, 21:57   #173
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I was a theist (christian) for the first 38 years of my life. I remember well what it was like on the other side of the fence.
Let's take a walk toward what we know then, instead of what we believe.

If thought about enough, we'd probably agree on what we know. We might still have different beliefs.
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Old 01-19-2013, 06:43   #174
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I agree that it happens. But I don't support that at all. You cannot determine "trust" by religious affiliation alone. I've known many men that ran toward the sound of gunfire. My trust in them was based on their own merits. I've known heroes, zero's, and cowards of all religious persuasions.
Follow the conversation. I was responding to your comment "I don't believe I've ever had anyone tell me was going to hell in a religious context. And if one was really sure hell didn't exist, why worry about it?" The reason atheists worry about theists who tell them they're going to hell as a result of their atheism is because of the disdain, distrust, and fear held by people making such a statement, which leads, for example, to atheists being the most distrusted minority.

To clarify, atheists aren't worried about going to hell; they're concerned about the attitude of people telling them they're going to hell because they're atheists, because that attitude affects their behavior towards atheists. It can affect atheists' employment or relationships.

It's great that you don't distrust people based on religious affiliation. Were you unaware that such a position isn't held by the majority? It's been mentioned a few times before; there's even been a study.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:00   #175
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Follow the conversation. I was responding to your comment "I don't believe I've ever had anyone tell me was going to hell in a religious context. And if one was really sure hell didn't exist, why worry about it?" The reason atheists worry about theists who tell them they're going to hell as a result of their atheism is because of the disdain, distrust, and fear held by people making such a statement, which leads, for example, to atheists being the most distrusted minority.

To clarify, atheists aren't worried about going to hell; they're concerned about the attitude of people telling them they're going to hell because they're atheists, because that attitude affects their behavior towards atheists. It can affect atheists' employment or relationships.

It's great that you don't distrust people based on religious affiliation. Were you unaware that such a position isn't held by the majority? It's been mentioned a few times before; there's even been a study.
Here you go...
http://www.gallup.com/poll/148100/he...rmon-2012.aspx

Would you vote for your party's candidate if:
Baptist -- 7% no
Jewish -- 9% no
Mormon -- 22% no
atheist -- 49% no

-ArtificialGrape
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:29   #176
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Follow the conversation. I was responding to your comment "I don't believe I've ever had anyone tell me was going to hell in a religious context. And if one was really sure hell didn't exist, why worry about it?" The reason atheists worry about theists who tell them they're going to hell as a result of their atheism is because of the disdain, distrust, and fear held by people making such a statement, which leads, for example, to atheists being the most distrusted minority.

To clarify, atheists aren't worried about going to hell; they're concerned about the attitude of people telling them they're going to hell because they're atheists, because that attitude affects their behavior towards atheists. It can affect atheists' employment or relationships.

It's great that you don't distrust people based on religious affiliation. Were you unaware that such a position isn't held by the majority? It's been mentioned a few times before; there's even been a study.
I've been in areas where I wasn't as popular as atheists in America. I don't spend a lot of time worrying about what other people think in real life. I don't ask people not to say "bless you" if I sneeze. I don't confront someone about praying before they eat when sitting down to lunch. I just ignore it.

I'm also very much against generalizations. All these people are this, all those people are that. I've found too many exceptions.

Is it sad that people cannot realize that one trait should never be used when assigning trust to someone. You have to get to know someone a bit before you can really know if they are worthy of trust. We've all been fooled once or twice. There's a long list of television evangelists that turned out to be crooks. A president or two also.

Guess it all depends on how obvious it is that you are an atheist. One guy around here says that he posts on a few religious forums to help him in his frequent IRL confrontations with anything religious he encounters. I guess if you interupt people that are praying, or yell at ones that say "bless you" when you sneeze, kick over nativity scenes, and put crosses in jars of urine, you're going to get some push back. Try burning a quran or writing a mohammed comic strip for the sunday paper. If you asked everyone at work what my religious beliefs are, I'd be surprised if three out of 2800 had a clue what I believe.

In short, yes, there is discrimination. A lot of people do it for a lot of bad reasons. I've not experienced religious discrimination in the USA, but I have been discriminated against because of my nationality, gender and race. I overcame it.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:39   #177
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Here you go...
http://www.gallup.com/poll/148100/he...rmon-2012.aspx

Would you vote for your party's candidate if:
Baptist -- 7% no
Jewish -- 9% no
Mormon -- 22% no
atheist -- 49% no

-ArtificialGrape
So, is stamping out all other religions going to fix that? Or would a tolerant first amendment kind of approach work better?

To be honest, I'm not sure if there is a good answer for that. I've had people tell me that without their religion, they would be lost. I guess a rule book is helpful to some. Some of those guys think that atheists and agnostics don't have a rule book.

I think a few people get upset and just think that IF everyone could be made to agree with them, then they would be accepted more. When one approaches other beliefs as a scourge on the human race that must be eliminated if we are ever to be truly free, there's going to be a lot of opportunity for friction.

Active efforts to achieve that unachievable goal just breeds resentment. I stay out of other people's way, they usually stay out of mine on religion IRL.
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Old 01-19-2013, 22:31   #178
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Old 01-22-2013, 02:00   #179
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In the hopes that some useful discussion can actually come out of this thread (unlikely), I do have a question/problem with the graph. I like the idea overall, but there is a coordinate on this chart that doesn't make sense. Imagine an individual that is 100% on the y-axis (completely gnostic), but also located at exactly zero on the x-axis (midway between theist and atheist). What would that person be 100% certain of exactly?
I don't see it as a Cartesian plane with coordinates. It's two independent true/false variables with a square in the chart for every possible combination of the two values. Viewed that way there is no x or y axis, there are no axes at all - what you are calling axes are just lines separating the boxes.

And that makes perfect sense, imho, as either you hold the position that there can be 100% certainty, or you don't - and you either believe, or you don't. It doesn't really make sense to say that someone '0.25 believes in God' or that someone holds the position that there can be 0.75% certainty but no more. (Someone might make such a claim, but how do you really quantify that in a way that actually makes sense? And really, if they claim there can be 0.75% certainty, but no more, they do *not* hold the position that there can be 100% certainty)
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Old 01-22-2013, 02:42   #180
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So, is stamping out all other religions going to fix that? Or would a tolerant first amendment kind of approach work better?
A tolerant first amendment approach would be great - but I think it's largely infeasible unless people actually become tolerant and respect each other's first amendment rights.

The kind of people that claim stores saying "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" is some sort of religious persecution don't strike me as the kind of people who will be likely to implement, or agree with, a tolerant, first amendment approach. The previous statement should not be construed as a claim that the nonbeliever side is necessarily bereft of like intolerance, we're talking about human nature here. Nobody is going to change that merely by claiming that a tolerant, first amendment approach would be ideal.

You can't stamp out religion without implementing some sort of dystopian thoughtcrime-esque pile of junk - which is precisely the situation we'd be in if all but one religion were stamped out. It'd be like lancing a boil using a tool that's guaranteed to give you a boil somewhere else.

The real answer is to teach people to think, based on data, rather than telling them that something is true and they should just accept and believe in it. You can view the litigation history of various pro-religion groups and see that's not going to fly. (again, the previous statement should not be construed to indicate that I agree with any particular lawsuit brought by atheists).
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