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Old 01-17-2013, 10:03   #141
Cavalry Doc
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Originally Posted by Syclone538 View Post
Looking back, I should have mentioned that accosted was not the right word, but other then that I was trying.

"It is very rare that they are pushy. Pressured is not the word I would use. "

"I'm not at all claiming to be an oppressed victim. "

"Yeah I absolutely believe all of them were trying to help. "






I'm not trying to give you a hard time here, but, why did you assume it would be offensive?

I try very hard not to be offended, and think everyone else should too. Generally if someone is being honest, they would have a very hard time offending me.

Anyway, I think some atheists get offended when a theists tell them they are going to hell or that they can't be moral without religion. I don't get offended by this, but understand being offended by it. This has never happened to me though, except at church where it wasn't directed at me because everyone there assumed I was Christian too.

There are a wide variety of reactions I've seen described here. Some of it resembles a "B" movie vampires reaction at the sight of a cross. Some just dismissal. I don't believe I've ever had anyone tell me was going to hell in a religious context. And if one was really sure hell didn't exist, why worry about it?

I don't go out of my way to avoid religious conversations, but they are very very rare IRL. Most people seem to be minding their own business.
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:03   #142
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Oh, and Appeal to Tradition is an obvious logical fallacy.
IMHO "Tradition" is just another way of saying "I fear change".
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:09   #143
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Maybe it's a location thing, but best I can tell, is the only blue law still on the books in Texas, is you can't buy alcohol before noon on Sunday. That's been an inconvenience twice in 20 years.
Agreed, it's not a huge inconvenience for me, either. However, the very existence of these types of laws proves my point. Religious morality has been and still is legislated in this country. We need to do everything we can to combat that, IMO.

This is very easily related to 2A rights. We have pretty expansive freedom to own firearms of all shapes, sizes and types in this country. Does that mean we should not worry about or fight against further restriction or reducing current restriction? I think the vast majority on this site would answer "hell no".


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I just don't feel a lot of pressure IRL. GTRI? Well a lot of people actually demand that you must have the same opinion as them or you are a [insert ad hom here]. A lot of them are demanding to be left alone by theists at the same time, it's interesting to watch.
Yep, as we've already established, there are bad apples in every bunch. This country is overwhelmingly Christian, that doesn't stop many Christians from playing the "opressed victim" card in many, many situations. It happens on both sides.
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:19   #144
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There is no way to pretend that religious principles are not imposed on the people as a whole by the religious. This is greatly to the detriment of good government and the majority of the people.

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Very well said.
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:20   #145
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Most controversial issues have their radicals on both sides. Gun rights, gay rights, abortion, war, crime, welfare, illegal aliens, etc.

Other than the gay marriage thing, the rest seems to have been moderated by both sides. There are plenty of places where that's not the case around the world in both directions.
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:23   #146
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I'm not Gecko, but I'm not sure I understand your question. Can you give an example of the laws you're talking about?
Well, we can look at the AWB in the 90's - the data clearly showed (and still shows) that other categories of implements are responsible for a larger share of intentional or accidental deaths. The current debate lacks scientific evidence just as much now as it did then, yet we're seeing a renewed call for bans despite evidence that they don't work.

See http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/ar...yoquotes2.html for some examples of what appears to be scientific consensus that "life begins with the formation of the one-celled zygote", yet abortion which terminates that life is legal in all 50 states.
Of course, I could cite a number of articles that state a number of differing theories as to when life begins, so it's probably safe to say that there is no scientific consensus.

DDT was banned in the 70's based on a book (silent spring), not science. A quick google search will illustrate the refutations of that work by actual scientists. The unintended consequence of the ban are the millions of deaths from malaria, which would have been prevented.

I'm old enough to remember the call for action to halt the imminent man-caused Ice Age. Seems we did too well back then and caused Global Warming. Seems we also did too well there, and perhaps we're on the cusp of another Ice Age. Climate change clearly occurs, but there is a lack of consensus as to why, but that doesn't prevent governments from implementing regulations to control it.

I did some time as a counselor when the best practice for treating depression was certain anti-depressants based on the research. While not codified as a law, a practioner who does not follow best practices opens themselves up to malpractice lawsuits. Then, in the course of further research, it was discovered that anti-depressant use in adolescents can actually increase the risk of suicide. Oops.

One personal example is from when I was doing my internship associated with gaining a Masters Degree in counseling psychology. One of my duties was that of an on-call crisis counselor. If in the course of my assessment, I came to the conclusion that a person was a potential threat to self or others, I could call a Psychiatrist who under state law (Title 51 in Illinois) could involuntarily commit that person based on my recommendations, not empirical data. The hardest part of the process was finding a facility that would take the person, not the act of legally depriving them of liberty based on what amounts to opinion.

My point is that ideology plays a larger role in legislating us than science. To single out the Theist in general and the Christian in particular as trying to legislate morality ignores the fact that the vast majority of laws reflect the morality of a particular worldview, which is forced on others that may not share that viewpoint. The misuse or cherry-picking of scientific data often leads to legislation.

As an adjunct to that, research that indicates what is beneficial now at times is discovered to be harmful later. Of course, that's not to say that scientific advancements should be ignored, just taken with a grain of salt.

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Old 01-17-2013, 10:34   #147
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Not sure why paragraph breaks didn't appear in my post. They were there when I was typing. Sorry 'bout that.

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Old 01-17-2013, 10:37   #148
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Not sure why paragraph breaks didn't appear in my post. They were there when I was typing. Sorry 'bout that.
We see them, you're just on a mobile app.
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:47   #149
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Nope, not a new concept at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_same-sex_unions

Unless you were speaking specifically to legal "marriage" in the US, then it is rather new.

With respect to Civil Unions, separate but equal isn't equal.

Where do the religious get the idea that they own the word marriage and get to dictate its definition?

Oh, and Appeal to Tradition is an obvious logical fallacy.
I've often said the worst reason to do something is that is the way it's always been done.

I was speaking about the USA. When you want go somewhere in a Republic, you have to know where you are and know how to get where you want to be. Incrementalism has been very effective way to get things done. The system is imperfect, so the outcome is likely to be less than perfect, especially on the first try.
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:48   #150
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Great, thanks. GT is blocked from my network, so I have to use my phone. That's one of the reasons I post infrequently.

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Old 01-17-2013, 10:59   #151
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I've often said the worst reason to do something is that is the way it's always been done.

I was speaking about the USA. When you want go somewhere in a Republic, you have to know where you are and know how to get where you want to be. Incrementalism has been very effective way to get things done. The system is imperfect, so the outcome is likely to be less than perfect, especially on the first try.

You might be right that the incremental approach would/could be faster to acheiving the same end. That doesn't appear to be the route anyone is persuing, though.

All it would take is the SCOTUS to rule that disallowing same-sex marriage is gender descrimination. No incremental steps needed. I think we're rapidly approaching a decision from the SCOTUS one way or the other.

However, this is getting well off course for this thread.

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Old 01-17-2013, 11:12   #152
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My point is that ideology plays a larger role in legislating us than science. To single out the Theist in general and the Christian in particular as trying to legislate morality ignores the fact that the vast majority of laws reflect the morality of a particular worldview, which is forced on others that may not share that viewpoint. The misuse or cherry-picking of scientific data often leads to legislation.

As an adjunct to that, research that indicates what is beneficial now at times is discovered to be harmful later. Of course, that's not to say that scientific advancements should be ignored, just taken with a grain of salt.

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Thanks, good point. I agree.
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:15   #153
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I'm not sure that would fly. In most cases, it's not that it's banned, it just doesn't exist.

Might as well start building small. But you are right, that's not a very popular idea. 20 years from now we'll all be straining to figure out what the big problem with it was.
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:21   #154
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...
However, this is getting well off course for this thread.


Every thread in GTRI goes off course.
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:01   #155
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However, this is getting well off course for this thread.
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:06   #156
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Good find. 17 billion earth sized planets in the Milky Way alone. Combine that with the 80-100 billion other galaxies that are within the observable universe (probably many more beyond the luminal horizon) and life arising somewhere becomes a statistical certainty. Those that throw out weak analogies to lotteries and junkyard tornadoes are simply unable or unwilling to grasp the vast size and age of the universe.
I'm a machinist so my math skills are limited to fast fraction/decimal/metric conversions. I'm no good with integers or numb3rs so big that you can't count the zeros but I tried to plug 17b x 100b into the long number calculator so I could maybe copy and paste the huge number of zeros and it's still too many zeros for that calculator.

Whenever that happens I usually just round up, use the number 8 knocked over on it's side and call it good.
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Old 01-17-2013, 14:01   #157
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Every thread in GTRI goes off course.


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Welcome to GTRI.


Touche, gentlemen.
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Old 01-17-2013, 15:27   #158
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Every thread in GTRI goes off course.
Actually, there are only a few threads. Everything morphs into one of those. Sometimes they morph into several of them..
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Old 01-17-2013, 18:27   #159
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There are a wide variety of reactions I've seen described here. Some of it resembles a "B" movie vampires reaction at the sight of a cross. Some just dismissal. I don't believe I've ever had anyone tell me was going to hell in a religious context. And if one was really sure hell didn't exist, why worry about it?
Because of the disdain, distrust, and fear held by people making such a statement, which leads, for example, to atheists being the most distrusted minority.

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I don't go out of my way to avoid religious conversations, but they are very very rare IRL. Most people seem to be minding their own business.
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Old 01-17-2013, 19:32   #160
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Because of the disdain, distrust, and fear held by people making such a statement, which leads, for example, to atheists being the most distrusted minority.
Not by me. I know quite a few atheists in real life that I would trust. Was in combat with many of them (yeah, I know the old saying is not true).

I generally don't like to generalize, but islamic jihadists score much lower on the trust scale than atheists. Of course, as far as I know I have not been shot at by an atheist. Islamic Jihadists, it would take me a while to list all the different things that have been aimed and fired in my direction.
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