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Old 01-17-2013, 09:59   #151
hooligan74
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
I've often said the worst reason to do something is that is the way it's always been done.

I was speaking about the USA. When you want go somewhere in a Republic, you have to know where you are and know how to get where you want to be. Incrementalism has been very effective way to get things done. The system is imperfect, so the outcome is likely to be less than perfect, especially on the first try.

You might be right that the incremental approach would/could be faster to acheiving the same end. That doesn't appear to be the route anyone is persuing, though.

All it would take is the SCOTUS to rule that disallowing same-sex marriage is gender descrimination. No incremental steps needed. I think we're rapidly approaching a decision from the SCOTUS one way or the other.

However, this is getting well off course for this thread.

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Old 01-17-2013, 10:12   #152
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My point is that ideology plays a larger role in legislating us than science. To single out the Theist in general and the Christian in particular as trying to legislate morality ignores the fact that the vast majority of laws reflect the morality of a particular worldview, which is forced on others that may not share that viewpoint. The misuse or cherry-picking of scientific data often leads to legislation.

As an adjunct to that, research that indicates what is beneficial now at times is discovered to be harmful later. Of course, that's not to say that scientific advancements should be ignored, just taken with a grain of salt.

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Thanks, good point. I agree.
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:15   #153
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I'm not sure that would fly. In most cases, it's not that it's banned, it just doesn't exist.

Might as well start building small. But you are right, that's not a very popular idea. 20 years from now we'll all be straining to figure out what the big problem with it was.
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:21   #154
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...
However, this is getting well off course for this thread.


Every thread in GTRI goes off course.
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The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
...
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:01   #155
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However, this is getting well off course for this thread.
Welcome to GTRI.
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:06   #156
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Good find. 17 billion earth sized planets in the Milky Way alone. Combine that with the 80-100 billion other galaxies that are within the observable universe (probably many more beyond the luminal horizon) and life arising somewhere becomes a statistical certainty. Those that throw out weak analogies to lotteries and junkyard tornadoes are simply unable or unwilling to grasp the vast size and age of the universe.
I'm a machinist so my math skills are limited to fast fraction/decimal/metric conversions. I'm no good with integers or numb3rs so big that you can't count the zeros but I tried to plug 17b x 100b into the long number calculator so I could maybe copy and paste the huge number of zeros and it's still too many zeros for that calculator.

Whenever that happens I usually just round up, use the number 8 knocked over on it's side and call it good.
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Old 01-17-2013, 13:01   #157
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Every thread in GTRI goes off course.


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Welcome to GTRI.


Touche, gentlemen.
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Old 01-17-2013, 14:27   #158
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Every thread in GTRI goes off course.
Actually, there are only a few threads. Everything morphs into one of those. Sometimes they morph into several of them..
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Old 01-17-2013, 17:27   #159
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There are a wide variety of reactions I've seen described here. Some of it resembles a "B" movie vampires reaction at the sight of a cross. Some just dismissal. I don't believe I've ever had anyone tell me was going to hell in a religious context. And if one was really sure hell didn't exist, why worry about it?
Because of the disdain, distrust, and fear held by people making such a statement, which leads, for example, to atheists being the most distrusted minority.

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I don't go out of my way to avoid religious conversations, but they are very very rare IRL. Most people seem to be minding their own business.
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Old 01-17-2013, 18:32   #160
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Because of the disdain, distrust, and fear held by people making such a statement, which leads, for example, to atheists being the most distrusted minority.
Not by me. I know quite a few atheists in real life that I would trust. Was in combat with many of them (yeah, I know the old saying is not true).

I generally don't like to generalize, but islamic jihadists score much lower on the trust scale than atheists. Of course, as far as I know I have not been shot at by an atheist. Islamic Jihadists, it would take me a while to list all the different things that have been aimed and fired in my direction.
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Old 01-17-2013, 21:04   #161
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Not by me. I know quite a few atheists in real life that I would trust. Was in combat with many of them (yeah, I know the old saying is not true).

I generally don't like to generalize, but islamic jihadists score much lower on the trust scale than atheists. Of course, as far as I know I have not been shot at by an atheist. Islamic Jihadists, it would take me a while to list all the different things that have been aimed and fired in my direction.
Atheists identified as America's most distrusted minority, according to new U of M study
"MINNEAPOLIS / ST. PAUL (03/28/2006) —American’s increasing acceptance of religious diversity doesn’t extend to those who don’t believe in a god, according to a national survey by researchers in the University of Minnesota’s department of sociology.
From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.
Even though atheists are few in number, not formally organized and relatively hard to publicly identify, they are seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public. “Atheists, who account for about 3 percent of the U.S. population, offer a glaring exception to the rule of increasing social tolerance over the last 30 years,” says Penny Edgell, associate sociology professor and the study’s lead researcher. ..."
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Old 01-17-2013, 21:08   #162
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Atheists identified as America's most distrusted minority, according to new U of M study
"MINNEAPOLIS / ST. PAUL (03/28/2006) —American’s increasing acceptance of religious diversity doesn’t extend to those who don’t believe in a god, according to a national survey by researchers in the University of Minnesota’s department of sociology.
From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.
Even though atheists are few in number, not formally organized and relatively hard to publicly identify, they are seen as a threat to the American way of life by a large portion of the American public. “Atheists, who account for about 3 percent of the U.S. population, offer a glaring exception to the rule of increasing social tolerance over the last 30 years,” says Penny Edgell, associate sociology professor and the study’s lead researcher. ..."
I agree that it happens. But I don't support that at all. You cannot determine "trust" by religious affiliation alone. I've known many men that ran toward the sound of gunfire. My trust in them was based on their own merits. I've known heroes, zero's, and cowards of all religious persuasions.
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Old 01-17-2013, 21:23   #163
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... “Atheists, who account for about 3 percent of the U.S. population,
..."
I was thinking around 10% for some reason.
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Old 01-18-2013, 04:52   #164
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It would be interesting to know what proportion of those distrusting atheists think that they are all socialists, communists or liberals as many on GT do.

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Old 01-18-2013, 05:17   #165
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I was thinking around 10% for some reason.
Probably depends on definitions and questions asked. I've heard 10% or more, don't remember where.
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:38   #166
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It would be interesting to know what proportion of those distrusting atheists think that they are all socialists, communists or liberals as many on GT do.

English
I'm atheist and libertarian almost to the point of being anarchist, so I see the socialist, communist or liberal views in just about everyone.
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:06   #167
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It would be interesting to know what proportion of those distrusting atheists think that they are all socialists, communists or liberals as many on GT do.

English
I consider myself a centrist. That puts me to the left of most Republicans and the right of most Democrats. It puts me far to the left of most posters in GT. I've been moving to the left since 2008 just as I moved to the right after Jimmy Carter.
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:22   #168
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Syclone and muscogee,
You are both atheists so you don't come into what I am talking about. It seems to me that most right wing Christians automatically assume that atheists are liberals and most liberals are atheists. If they were asked how much they trusted liberals they might come up with the same number as if they were asking how much they trusted atheists.

As far as could be told by the press release, the questions were all about religious tolerance. It would have been interesting if they had included liberals and republicans in the questions. That would at least have given some scale to the answers.

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Old 01-18-2013, 08:30   #169
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Syclone and muscogee,
You are both atheists so you don't come into what I am talking about. It seems to me that most right wing Christians automatically assume that atheists are liberals and most liberals are atheists. If they were asked how much they trusted liberals they might come up with the same number as if they were asking how much they trusted atheists.

As far as could be told by the press release, the questions were all about religious tolerance. It would have been interesting if they had included liberals and republicans in the questions. That would at least have given some scale to the answers.

English
That happens both ways. A lot of people assume that libertarians are pot smokers, conservatives are all Christians, liberals are all welfare bums.

Stereotyping happens from all sides.
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:51   #170
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It seems to me that most right wing Christians automatically assume that atheists are liberals and most liberals are atheists.
That has been my experience as well. I've lost tracked of the number of times I've been accused of being a socialist, democrat and/or Obama voter. In actuality, I'm more right in fiscal and political issues than most here. I just don't subscribe to the right-wing social issues (which, ironically, are actually leftist as they require govt regulation to enforce).
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Old 01-18-2013, 17:52   #171
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That has been my experience as well. I've lost tracked of the number of times I've been accused of being a socialist, democrat and/or Obama voter. In actuality, I'm more right in fiscal and political issues than most here. I just don't subscribe to the right-wing social issues (which, ironically, are actually leftist as they require govt regulation to enforce).

Have you also noticed the stereotypical responses from the multiple different flavors of theists, and atheists?

Generally speaking, generalizing is really a bad thing to do.

I get it from all sides of the religious spectrum, not just from the theists. You should walk a mile in my moccasins. You'd learn a lot that way.
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Old 01-18-2013, 19:20   #172
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I was a theist (christian) for the first 38 years of my life. I remember well what it was like on the other side of the fence.
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Old 01-18-2013, 20:57   #173
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I was a theist (christian) for the first 38 years of my life. I remember well what it was like on the other side of the fence.
Let's take a walk toward what we know then, instead of what we believe.

If thought about enough, we'd probably agree on what we know. We might still have different beliefs.
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Old 01-19-2013, 05:43   #174
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I agree that it happens. But I don't support that at all. You cannot determine "trust" by religious affiliation alone. I've known many men that ran toward the sound of gunfire. My trust in them was based on their own merits. I've known heroes, zero's, and cowards of all religious persuasions.
Follow the conversation. I was responding to your comment "I don't believe I've ever had anyone tell me was going to hell in a religious context. And if one was really sure hell didn't exist, why worry about it?" The reason atheists worry about theists who tell them they're going to hell as a result of their atheism is because of the disdain, distrust, and fear held by people making such a statement, which leads, for example, to atheists being the most distrusted minority.

To clarify, atheists aren't worried about going to hell; they're concerned about the attitude of people telling them they're going to hell because they're atheists, because that attitude affects their behavior towards atheists. It can affect atheists' employment or relationships.

It's great that you don't distrust people based on religious affiliation. Were you unaware that such a position isn't held by the majority? It's been mentioned a few times before; there's even been a study.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:00   #175
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Follow the conversation. I was responding to your comment "I don't believe I've ever had anyone tell me was going to hell in a religious context. And if one was really sure hell didn't exist, why worry about it?" The reason atheists worry about theists who tell them they're going to hell as a result of their atheism is because of the disdain, distrust, and fear held by people making such a statement, which leads, for example, to atheists being the most distrusted minority.

To clarify, atheists aren't worried about going to hell; they're concerned about the attitude of people telling them they're going to hell because they're atheists, because that attitude affects their behavior towards atheists. It can affect atheists' employment or relationships.

It's great that you don't distrust people based on religious affiliation. Were you unaware that such a position isn't held by the majority? It's been mentioned a few times before; there's even been a study.
Here you go...
http://www.gallup.com/poll/148100/he...rmon-2012.aspx

Would you vote for your party's candidate if:
Baptist -- 7% no
Jewish -- 9% no
Mormon -- 22% no
atheist -- 49% no

-ArtificialGrape
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