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Old 01-16-2013, 20:57   #101
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Originally Posted by Syclone538 View Post
I don't go to booster functions or school board meetings, but otherwise, yes, all of the above.

The dealership doesn't really count though, as I worked there. The odds of it happening at a dealership now would be extremely low.

It is very rare that they are pushy. Pressured is not the word I would use.
I'm being very sincere here. I've never felt pressured by a theist to join their religion, at least in the last 20+ years or so.

I really don't get it. I've watched the elimination of a lot of blue laws, the initiation of a lot of sin taxes by the leftists, but that is a secular movement. I've watched LGBTQ issues advance, abortion is legal in all states, divorce has no stigma at all, neither does unwed parenting, Sex ed is expected in schools, prayer is banned....... etc etc etc....

I'm really not getting where atheists are entitled to the "oppressed victim" label.
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Old 01-16-2013, 21:06   #102
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It would seem that our resident gnostic-agnostic has fallen back into his usual pattern of intellectual dishonesty. Not much point in debating someone who has no shame and will recognize no limit in bending the truth to suit his agenda.
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JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."

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Old 01-16-2013, 21:09   #103
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Although mildly annoying, I don't have a problem with any of the above. As long as (in the last case) they don't return to my home when politely asked not to. That is all constitutionally protected free speech. They should be allowed to be publicly foolish if they want to be, they just shouldn't be allowed to enact foolish (sometimes dangerous and unjust) laws based on their religion.
I agree, I don't have too much of a problem with it, either, although I prefer not to be interrupted reading my paper while waiting for a train, or having to answer the door, or whatever. But it IS proselytizing, and even if Doc hasn't been recently approached on the street, I'm guessing he has been exposed to the other situations.

Reading his posts, though, perhaps he's defining proselytize differently than everybody else.

And that doesn't even begin to address the other attendant issues controversial because of religious belief.
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Old 01-16-2013, 21:11   #104
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
...
I'm really not getting where atheists are entitled to the "oppressed victim" label.
I'm not trying. You mentioned how rare it is someone mentions religion to you and that amazed me, so I commented on how common it is for me. I'm not at all claiming to be an oppressed victim.
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The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
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Old 01-16-2013, 21:13   #105
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It would seem that our resident gnostic-agnostic has fallen back into his usual pattern of intellectual dishonesty. Not much point in debating someone who has no shame and will recognize no limit in bending the truth to suit his agenda.
Gek, these drive by unsupported BS posts of yours are really beneath you.

What in my post was dishonest. I know that you have a skewed point of view, but at least try to make sense of it.
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Old 01-16-2013, 21:14   #106
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Reading his posts, though, perhaps he's defining proselytize differently than everybody else.
Or perhaps he is simply being dishonest like he has a number of times in the past.
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JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."
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Old 01-16-2013, 21:18   #107
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What in my post was dishonest.
Pretending to not understand an argument in plain English, for one. You're obviously not stupid, so I can only assume that you are playing dumb when you consistently misrepresent what I say.
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CavDoc: "You consider yourself as non-religious, and I consider you a religious zealot."

JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."
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Old 01-16-2013, 21:18   #108
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I'm not trying. You mentioned how rare it is someone mentions religion to you and that amazed me, so I commented on how common it is for me. I'm not at all claiming to be an oppressed victim.
OK, I may have been a bit overboard there.

But really, where does this happen? Walmart? Cabelas? Bass Pro Shop?

Is the guy ringing the bell outside of a store in late december a problem. Yeah, I hear the ringing bell, and drop a dollar once in a while, but that's because I see some people that come out well from their substance abuse programs.

I shop at the goodwill and donate stuff that I don't need any longer, and no one has ever mentioned a deity there either.


Maybe this is a difference of location? Can you share the last three instances where you felt preached to in real life? Nothing identifying by person or location, just the general situation where this has happened.
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Old 01-16-2013, 21:47   #109
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OK, I may have been a bit overboard there.

But really, where does this happen? Walmart? Cabelas? Bass Pro Shop?

Is the guy ringing the bell outside of a store in late december a problem. Yeah, I hear the ringing bell, and drop a dollar once in a while, but that's because I see some people that come out well from their substance abuse programs.

I shop at the goodwill and donate stuff that I don't need any longer, and no one has ever mentioned a deity there either.


Maybe this is a difference of location? Can you share the last three instances where you felt preached to in real life? Nothing identifying by person or location, just the general situation where this has happened.
At a gas station, right at close, the girl working was filling a propane tank for an older lady. Had locked the doors, but said she'd let me and another customer in when she was done. When we go in, the other customer looks at the hours posted on the door, says "you guys close at 8:00?" employee says "yeah," customer says Jesus. Lady with the propane says that's our savior, customer says "that right". I think she was serious, but not sure. Older lady looks at me and says "do you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins?" I say no. She says that's disappointing, and invites me to church, I decline. She says I should reconsider, then turns back to employee and pays and leaves without saying much more.

In walmart, another older lady asked me where to find batteries, I tell her about the little stands by the registers but the biggest selection should be in electronics and pointed in the direction. She thanks me and says she'd like to invite me to her church, hands me a business card for the church and walks towards electronics.

In a hospital, relative was having a pretty serious surgery. Bunch of us in a big open waiting area. Two young guys come up and ask us if we'd like to hear about Jesus Christ, my cousin says no thanks, they say ok, set down a pamphlet and walk away.
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The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
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Old 01-16-2013, 22:01   #110
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At a gas station, right at close, the girl working was filling a propane tank for an older lady. Had locked the doors, but said she'd let me and another customer in when she was done. When we go in, the other customer looks at the hours posted on the door, says "you guys close at 8:00?" employee says "yeah," customer says Jesus. Lady with the propane says that's our savior, customer says "that right". I think she was serious, but not sure. Older lady looks at me and says "do you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins?" I say no. She says that's disappointing, and invites me to church, I decline. She says I should reconsider, then turns back to employee and pays and leaves without saying much more.

In walmart, another older lady asked me where to find batteries, I tell her about the little stands by the registers but the biggest selection should be in electronics and pointed in the direction. She thanks me and says she'd like to invite me to her church, hands me a business card for the church and walks towards electronics.

In a hospital, relative was having a pretty serious surgery. Bunch of us in a big open waiting area. Two young guys come up and ask us if we'd like to hear about Jesus Christ, my cousin says no thanks, they say ok, set down a pamphlet and walk away.

I've honestly not experienced anything like that. But whether you agree or not, doesn't it seem like best wishes objectively.


In 1995, when my grandfather passed away. WWII Veteran, fought in the pacific with 4 of his brothers that all joined the navy to fight the japs as soon as they heard about Pearl Harbor..... When his funeral procession was making it's way from the funeral home to the cemetery, every single car stopped. Every single person got out of their vehicles and paid their respects. Every single person walking on the street stopped, faced the procession, and paid their respects.

I'd been out of the south for quite a while. That didn't seem oppressive to me, more as respectful to the family left behind by the recently departed.



I've had Muslims actively try to kill me and my fellow soldiers. I've had other Muslims from the same lands invite me to consider Mohammed. I never had a problem respectfully declining. I'm still friends with a couple of those guys.

I'd imagine that a well meaning atheist trying to convince a theist that their god does not exist is at least as honorable as a well meaning theist trying to convince an atheist or agnostic that they should consider their route to salvation.


I also believe that it is very easy to politely decline. It's a personal freedom, not a group mandate.
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Old 01-16-2013, 22:11   #111
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Yeah I absolutely believe all of them were trying to help.
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The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
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Old 01-16-2013, 22:18   #112
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Yeah I absolutely believe all of them were trying to help.
Yeah, the road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that jazz.

But you really took offense at those examples?

I've never felt pressured one way or the other. It's just not an issue that comes up often.
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Old 01-16-2013, 22:24   #113
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But you really took offense at those examples?
...
We've had a miscommunication somewhere.
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The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
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Old 01-16-2013, 22:32   #114
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We've had a miscommunication somewhere.
OK. I assumed that theists proselytizing to you would be offensive. It wasn't intentional. I should have asked though. My bad. I should have gone about asking that question in a much different way.


In the experiences you described, how did that affect your feelings toward them?
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Old 01-16-2013, 23:13   #115
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OK. I assumed that theists proselytizing to you would be offensive. It wasn't intentional. I should have asked though. My bad. I should have gone about asking that question in a much different way.
You made the same mistaken assumption in regards to me as well.
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CavDoc: "You consider yourself as non-religious, and I consider you a religious zealot."

JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."
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Old 01-16-2013, 23:19   #116
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OK. I assumed that theists proselytizing to you would be offensive. It wasn't intentional. I should have asked though. My bad. I should have gone about asking that question in a much different way.


In the experiences you described, how did that affect your feelings toward them?
When I meet someone who really believes, I think to myself, is this person crazy, or am I?
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The constitution is not, nor was it meant to be absolutely literal.
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Old 01-16-2013, 23:21   #117
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I can't be understanding you correctly here.

If the odds that cellular life would spontaneously occur are less then the odds of you winning the lottery next week, then the odds that it did not occur are the same as the odds that you will not win the lottery next week.

Is this what you mean to say?
Notice that he skipped right over your request for clarification of his classic creationist fallacy. Don't expect him to come back to that, they never do. Also notice that when I called him out on it the first time he accused me of presenting a non sequitur and then redirected to something that "does not follow", my income. The second time I called him out on it he again redirected by begging me to save my dignity and followed up with a cute little smiley to let me know I had failed.

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Old 01-16-2013, 23:23   #118
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Or perhaps he is simply being dishonest like he has a number of times in the past.
Well that can't be. He's accuses me of dishonesty every chance he gets. Perhaps physician's assistants take the hypocritical oath.
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Old 01-17-2013, 04:37   #119
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When I meet someone who really believes, I think to myself, is this person crazy, or am I?
It doesn't have to be a him or me issue there. We all have our idiosyncrasies. There are people that let their religious belief dominate their life. That's been a good and a bad thing.

I see the whole thing as rather neutral and almost transparent in real life.
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Old 01-17-2013, 04:38   #120
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You made the same mistaken assumption in regards to me as well.
You've made so many intentional ones regarding me, that I think I can get over it.
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Old 01-17-2013, 04:50   #121
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I can't be understanding you correctly here.

If the odds that cellular life would spontaneously occur are less then the odds of you winning the lottery next week, then the odds that it did not occur are the same as the odds that you will not win the lottery next week.

Is this what you mean to say?
Missed this, sorry.


Not exactly. A loose analogy about low percentages was all I was implying. I've bought one lottery ticket in the last several years, odds are almost certain I won't be buying one next week.

The possibility of the elements and pieces coming together to create a viable cell is remote enough, one capable of reproduction with internally distant dependent structures would be very rare. Then you add in other organisms, predatory and symbiotic relationships, adaptation, evolution, and in the end I think it's possible both ways. Just happened, or designed. And I just simply don't know which it is.

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 01-17-2013 at 04:52..
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Old 01-17-2013, 06:15   #122
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....
The odds that cellular life would spontaneously occur, has to be less than the probability that I will win the lottery next week, If I bothered to buy a ticket.

....
Not if there are trillions of tries every second for a few billion years!

Quote:
Stem cell: Not banned. Federal funding was withheld for a few years, not for the last several.

Gay Marriage: Has not existed before, is a relatively new concept, likely a hail mary (pun intended) that would be best accomplished by going for "Civil Unions" with all the benefits now, then add "marriage" in 10 years when no one gives a crap.

Abortion on demand is the law of the land. Morning after pills are freely available.
The facts are simple. Stem cell research was banned and the only reason for that was religious.

Gay marriage, about which I care little either way, is resisted only because of religion.

Abortion, which has been legal in the USA for a few decades was illegal before that on religious grounds. A substantial minority now skews election results because of this single issue, again on religious grounds. A proportion of them consider it important enough to justify interfering with the independent decisions of pregnant women, murder of doctors performing abortions and bombing abortion clinics. How many abortion clinics remain functioning as a result?

It is virtually impossible to be elected to significant office without professing a strong religion.

There is no way to pretend that religious principles are not imposed on the people as a whole by the religious. This is greatly to the detriment of good government and the majority of the people.

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Old 01-17-2013, 06:47   #123
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When was stem cell research banned? It's always been legal at the federal level. It's an often repeated misconception though.

If life were so easy to happen, it would be found everywhere we look. It would be different and adapted to its own environment, but it should be everywhere if it was simply inevitable. The odds are still such that either spontaneous generation or intelligent design could be responsible. Ultimately, that's a question that remains unanswered.

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 01-17-2013 at 06:54..
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Old 01-17-2013, 07:09   #124
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Maybe a math impediment is the reason for Cav PA never getting that MD.

I wonder if he understands what data is required to accurately make calculations on odds.


.....
Beliefs have a variety of bases. If it is a belief about God's existence there can be no data and therefore no calculation about probability. Probabilities are then used as a measure of the individual's opinion and do not fall into the same category as, for instance, the increased risk of early death as a result of smoking 20 cigarettes a day, where probability theory can be applied.

This is a very interesting tread but much of it is spoiled by unnecessary backbiting and a failure to use words like belief, knowledge, fact, theory, idea and so on clearly.

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Old 01-17-2013, 07:10   #125
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What are the odds?

http://www.space.com/19157-billions-...ts-aas221.html
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