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Old 01-16-2013, 10:59   #41
hooligan74
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
Non sequitur. That's not even remotely my argument.

Hence my request for clarification on your stance.

It's not semantic. There is a very real difference between people who feel/believe they *know* they are right and people who openly admit they may be wrong.

The reality of whether they are right or wrong is beside the point.
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Old 01-16-2013, 11:06   #42
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Yes, I do believe that is a correct interpretation. If you plotted people's degree of a/gnosticism, I would think that you would find asymptotes forming at the extremes of the axis. There woulde be some people (like me) that would be 99.999% certain of their position, but if they were being honest with themselves then I don't see how anyone could claim 100% one way or the other.

I think you wouldn't have too much trouble finding people who believe they are as certain about their theism/atheism as a person can be about anything.
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Old 01-16-2013, 11:11   #43
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Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
I think you wouldn't have too much trouble finding people who believe they are as certain about their theism/atheism as a person can be about anything.
I'm 100% sure that I am theist.
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Old 01-16-2013, 11:12   #44
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Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
Hence my request for clarification on your stance.

It's not semantic. There is a very real difference between people who feel/believe they *know* they are right and people who openly admit they may be wrong.

The reality of whether they are right or wrong is beside the point.
Depends on the stance. Mine is that there is no verifiable evidence that there is a God. I am right in this regard as there is no verifiable evidence.

Most Atheists maintain the stance that there is no point in having a belief in God, if there is no verifiable proof of one. The assumption simply doesn't need to be made. And we find more and more everyday that the things man has attributed to God's hand... happened naturally all on their own. And we now know most all ancient religious texts to be false and man made creations based on other ancient myths and legends. So without further evidence of a God... there is simply no point in assuming there is one.

Some actual evidence could change that up however.
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Old 01-16-2013, 11:14   #45
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Originally Posted by NMG26 View Post
I'm 100% sure that I am theist.

Crap. Poorly worded.

As sure about their beliefs of the existence, or lack thereof, of a god/gods as we can be about anything.

I think that's better? I need some lunch...
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Old 01-16-2013, 11:18   #46
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
Depends on the stance. Mine is that there is no verifiable evidence that there is a God. I am right in this regard as there is no verifiable evidence...
That's not what gnostic/agnostic addresses, though. It doesn't address verifiable evidence. It addresses the belief that you know for certain, one way or the other.

If I say: "I know for a fact, beyond all doubt, that God exists because of my personal relationship with him and the experiences in my life." that makes me a gnostic theist, whether I'm right or wrong.
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Old 01-16-2013, 11:28   #47
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Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
I think you wouldn't have too much trouble finding people who believe they are as certain about their theism/atheism as a person can be about anything.
I've talked about the problem of induction here before, but don't think you were around then. My point is that we can't actually prove just about anything that we think we know. There is always an assumption somewhere in the chain of logic that we assume to be true (because it has always been observed to be true) that can't actually be proven. We can't even prove that our own perception of what we call reality is what we think it is and if we can't know that then we really can't know anything else. We must always induce a conclusion, we can never actually deduce one.

That is why I find arguments about not being able to prove or disprove the existence of a deity beyond all doubt rather moot and futile. Of course you can't, but that does not mean that we can't reach an inductive (as opposed to decutive) conclusion with a level of certainty sufficient for any practical purpose. I don't see how a deity could exist with a level of confidence adequate for all real world considerations. I can't eliminate all doubt, but then again I can't eliminate all doubt that Santa doesn't exist either. The thing is, I don't need to in order to arrive at a conclusion sufficent to live my life.
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Old 01-16-2013, 11:47   #48
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Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
That's not what gnostic/agnostic addresses, though. It doesn't address verifiable evidence. It addresses the belief that you know for certain, one way or the other.

If I say: "I know for a fact, beyond all doubt, that God exists because of my personal relationship with him and the experiences in my life." that makes me a gnostic theist, whether I'm right or wrong.
I am 100% Gnostic that there is no verifiable evidence there is a God.

That position will immediately change once evidence is presented.

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Old 01-16-2013, 12:01   #49
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Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
Hence my request for clarification on your stance.

It's not semantic. There is a very real difference between people who feel/believe they *know* they are right and people who openly admit they may be wrong.

The reality of whether they are right or wrong is beside the point.
My stance it that it doesn't matter what you call yourself or what others call you. What matters is what you think and the facts/logic that support your thinking. Claiming to know there is or is not a God is illogical.

I don't claim to be an atheists or an agnostic. The only title I have ever given myself is recovering Christian.
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:07   #50
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Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
That's not what gnostic/agnostic addresses, though. It doesn't address verifiable evidence. It addresses the belief that you know for certain, one way or the other.
You make the same mistake other here make. It's not whether or not you believe something. It's what that belief is based on. Is your belief based on facts and logic, or something else. Believing there is a God without valid proof is different from believing that the absence of proof indicates there is no God.
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:57   #51
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
I am 100% Gnostic that there is no verifiable evidence there is a God.

That position will immediately change once evidence is presented.
With the addition of the words "that I am aware of" that would be a more accurate statement.

I haven't seen enough evidence to be convincing one way or the other. I have seen action and claims to action that lead me to believe many people are convinced they know the answer.
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Old 01-16-2013, 13:01   #52
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
You make the same mistake other here make. It's not whether or not you believe something. It's what that belief is based on. Is your belief based on facts and logic, or something else. Believing there is a God without valid proof is different from believing that the absence of proof indicates there is no God.
There is no proof I have seen either way. The process of inductive reasoning involves evaluating a very limited amount of data (on the cosmic and temporal scales) to convince oneself that they have proof.

Action and activity of many, but not all, sure seems to indicate that there are some with firm belief on the atheist side of the scale.
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Old 01-16-2013, 13:58   #53
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
My stance it that it doesn't matter what you call yourself or what others call you. What matters is what you think and the facts/logic that support your thinking. Claiming to know there is or is not a God is illogical.

I don't claim to be an atheists or an agnostic. The only title I have ever given myself is recovering Christian.
Define "matters"? It certainly matters what we call ourselves or others if our intent is to effectively and accurately communicate.
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Old 01-16-2013, 14:01   #54
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
You make the same mistake other here make. It's not whether or not you believe something. It's what that belief is based on. Is your belief based on facts and logic, or something else. Believing there is a God without valid proof is different from believing that the absence of proof indicates there is no God.

No, no mistake. With respect to gnostic/agnostic, it most certainly does matter what people believe. There is no physical proof of gods, but that doesn't stop people from "knowing" that God exists. Those people are gnostic theists. Whether that belief turns out to be true or not, doesn't change that classification.
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Old 01-16-2013, 14:07   #55
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There is no proof I have seen either way. The process of inductive reasoning involves evaluating a very limited amount of data (on the cosmic and temporal scales) to convince oneself that they have proof...

What proof do you need to lack belief in something? You can't prove a negative. Just because we don't understand something explaining it with "magic" isn't sound logic.

When you distill it, that's what creationism is. We don't know how we got here, so "God" must have created us.
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Old 01-16-2013, 14:11   #56
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You can't prove a negative.
Some will say you can. That because there isn't any proof then the negative must be true. I do not agree however.
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Old 01-16-2013, 14:17   #57
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Originally Posted by hooligan74 View Post
What proof do you need to lack belief in something? You can't prove a negative. Just because we don't understand something explaining it with "magic" isn't sound logic.

When you distill it, that's what creationism is. We don't know how we got here, so "God" must have created us.
Some negatives can be proven. That's a common misconception.
https://www.google.com/search?q=can+...&client=safari


To lack belief? Probably next to none. But to believe that something does not exist, I guess that would have to have something someone thought was evidence.

In the long run, day to day activities for me aren't affected much by theists or atheists except in online discussions. It's just not something that's ever caused much problem IRL.

Last edited by Cavalry Doc; 01-16-2013 at 14:29..
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Old 01-16-2013, 14:26   #58
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Agreed, CavDoc. IRL there have been the occasional colleagues that wanted to proselytize, but no real issues for me, either.

I just find it a fascinating subject to discuss - what people believe and why they believe that way.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods. The same way *most* people lack belief in yetis or chupacabras.

Last edited by hooligan74; 01-16-2013 at 14:26.. Reason: kant speel
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Old 01-16-2013, 14:37   #59
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Originally Posted by Cavalry Doc View Post
Some negatives can be proven. That's a common misconception.
https://www.google.com/search?q=can+...&client=safari
Interesting. I have previously cited the first result of your search in support of the notion that you can prove that god does not exist to a practical and reasonable level using inductive reasoning.

Thinking Tools: You can prove a negative
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Old 01-16-2013, 14:43   #60
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Agreed, CavDoc. IRL there have been the occasional colleagues that wanted to proselytize, but no real issues for me, either.

I just find it a fascinating subject to discuss - what people believe and why they believe that way.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods. The same way *most* people lack belief in yetis or chupacabras.
How much time does the average person that lacks belief in unicorns spend chasing down every image of and believer in unicorns to stamp them out? If someone made that one of their top priorities in life, wouldn't it be safe to assume, that guy REALLY believes unicorns don't exist?

I guess it's just a level of degrees as evidenced by attitudes and actions.
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