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Old 01-07-2013, 21:10   #1
Durden
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My Chinese Made Pardner Pump Defender Is AT LEAST = to Buddy's Remmy 870

We took turns alternating between his mostly stock 870 and my Defender on Saturday.

He and I both agree that the Defender (that I purchased new for $169) is at least equal to, and in some ways (such as thicker, heavier build quality) better than, his 870.

I realize this is not that detailed or technically oriented, but wanted to throw an anti-TL;DR something out there based on a real life and recent outing with some scatterguns.

I appreciate value, which to me does NOT equate with "cheap," but rather has to do with getting relatively high levels of quality at a relatively lower cost than competing goods offer, and I can honestly say that the Defender is one of the best "value" buys I've ever had the good fortune to make.
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Old 01-07-2013, 22:47   #2
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I own both and I have to agree. The first thing that I did after I purchased the Pardner was to completely disassemble it and I was pleasantly surprised by how sturdy it was. It kills me to even think this, but did the Chinese do a good job on this one?
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Old 01-07-2013, 22:52   #3
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I own both and I have to agree. The first thing that I did after I purchased the Pardner was to completely disassemble it and I was pleasantly surprised by how sturdy it was. It kills me to even think this, but did the Chinese do a good job on this one?
Yes.

In the competition to provide value to customers, may the best product win.

The Defender has been rock solid in terms of reliability and is built like a tank.

Being an American, I'd love to be able to purchase nothing but 100% American made products, knowing that they represent the best value (again, from a quality and value perspective), but sadly, this is not possible at present.
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Old 01-07-2013, 22:57   #4
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Thicker parts is sometimes a compensation for poorer materials (or at least uneven material quality) and simplifies manufacture.

I'm not saying that's the case, but there may be a reason the Chinese felt the need to beef it up.

I had an engineering professor who said the most amazing thing about Russian Engineers was that their designs worked - even after being built by Russian factories. American designs assembled in Russia just wouldn't have worked.
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Old 01-07-2013, 23:52   #5
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Thicker parts is sometimes a compensation for poorer materials (or at least uneven material quality) and simplifies manufacture.

I'm not saying that's the case, but there may be a reason the Chinese felt the need to beef it up.

I had an engineering professor who said the most amazing thing about Russian Engineers was that their designs worked - even after being built by Russian factories. American designs assembled in Russia just wouldn't have worked.
I, admittedly, am not a metallurgist, and I did not use a micrometer, but FWIW, I'd be legitimately surprised (maybe shocked) if the metal the Defender is made with is of lesser quality or is less consistently uniform in thickness than the 870.
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Old 01-08-2013, 06:13   #6
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I remember when people made fun of "Made in Japan" too.

China's quality control is improving. There are some areas still lagging, but the differences are catching up or exceeding US manufacturing capabilities. For instance, 70% of the worlds ocean going tankers were built in South Korea, Japan or China. Not the USA. Some of the beloved "Craftsman" tools - yup. Say "made in Taiwan".

I could list many more examples.
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Old 01-08-2013, 07:18   #7
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I recall on some forum -- it may have been this one, or THR, a few years back -- some fellow claimed to have bought an NEF Pardner pump and a Remington 870 Express with the sole purpose of cutting them up and having his dad (a metallurgist) test the quality of the metals.

The findings that were returned were that the steel on the Pardner's receiver was slightly superior to the Remington, while the results were slightly the opposite for the barrels (I may have that reversed -- but I think that's how it went).

Of course, this is totally anecdotal "information" just thrown in for discussion. From a practical standpoint, I've never had a reason to regret the purchase of my Pardner -- and a friend liked his so much, relative to value, that he bought a second one.


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Old 01-08-2013, 10:15   #8
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Remington's quality has taken a major dive in the last few years. I have an 870 Wingmaster 30" fixed full choke from the 70s and it is of impeccable quality. My 2 year old 870, not so much.
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:28   #9
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Remington's quality has taken a major dive in the last few years. I have an 870 Wingmaster 30" fixed full choke from the 70s and it is of impeccable quality. My 2 year old 870, not so much.
This is what I've seen in a few 870's. though it shouldn't be the case. This gun should get better with time and new improvements. Seems like remington is taking advantage of the 870's noteriety.
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Old 01-08-2013, 11:54   #10
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I, admittedly, am not a metallurgist, and I did not use a micrometer, but FWIW, I'd be legitimately surprised (maybe shocked) if the metal the Defender is made with is of lesser quality or is less consistently uniform in thickness than the 870.
I'm not suggesting that, I'm saying that sometimes manufacturers will beef up a design when they expect material quality may vary, i.e. sometimes it won't be as good. It allows them flexibility in sourcing raw materials when the specs aren't as exacting. Not a bad thing, just a different design philosophy.
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Old 01-08-2013, 12:29   #11
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This is what I've seen in a few 870's. though it shouldn't be the case. This gun should get better with time and new improvements. Seems like remington is taking advantage of the 870's noteriety.
It's probably due to the parent company being more interested in profit margin than quality products. Same for Marlin DPMS, etc.
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Old 01-08-2013, 18:39   #12
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China can make a very good firearm, lets be honest copying a proven design with modern CNC machines is not that tough. What are some of the best AKs and SKS? (besides true Russian or Arsenal) Norinco.

I have the Chinese 870 marketed as the "Hawk"-its the same thing you are looking at. I used a gift card and a sale to pick one up a couple of years ago new for $100. I got it as a lark and have really tried to flog the beast but it just does not stop. It has thousands of rounds and hardly looks worse for wear. It has great ghost ring sights and parts such as the trigger guard that on an express would be plastic are metal. The exterior parkerized finish is tough and the action has really smoothed out. It hurts the pride that this gun is not crap but if you can get over the politics I don't know of a better value out there.
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Old 01-08-2013, 19:25   #13
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I grew up with 870's, and the whole extended family for the most part had them... The older ones are super slick, full-on worry free solid guns built for the long haul... I wouldn't buy a new one, no way... They are junk, and it hurts my soul to admit that the classic and legendary 870 is now extinct... Something made from compressed crap has taken it's place..
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Old 01-08-2013, 23:17   #14
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No it is not. So two shotguns are loaded and laying on the table and you have to go out the door and fight for your life. One is an 870 and the other a China Clone of the 870, Which one will you pick up? I rest my case about that equal to an 870 BS you posted.

Also, answer this question. Why would Remington import a weapon equal to their best selling model and sell it for so much less? Waiting for your answer.
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:57   #15
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Also, answer this question. Why would Remington import a weapon equal to their best selling model and sell it for so much less? Waiting for your answer.
H&R was importing the Pardner Pump/Norinco shotguns before Remington bought H&R. They have been very good sellers for H&R so why would Remington stop importing them?
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:37   #16
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Also, answer this question. Why would Remington import a weapon equal to their best selling model and sell it for so much less? Waiting for your answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victoriagotagun View Post
H&R was importing the Pardner Pump/Norinco shotguns before Remington bought H&R. They have been very good sellers for H&R so why would Remington stop importing them?
I don't think it matters that the Pardner Pump is as well built as an 870 Express. I would add that it wouldn't matter if the Pardner Pump was substantially better in quality, fit and/or finish than the 870 Express. The fact that it is made in China, advertised as such and doesn't say Remington on the receiver demands a lower price in this country, at this time.
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Old 01-09-2013, 14:32   #17
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Mine works well, not one issue. Rain, snow, cold, 3 hunting seasons now and keeps going. I don't fire 500 rds at a target, but it does what I want it to. Was going to buy another Rem 870, missed having one, but won't waste the money. Maybe will look at a Mossberg, they have a ton of models available.
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Old 01-09-2013, 16:27   #18
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Also, answer this question. Why would Remington import a weapon equal to their best selling model and sell it for so much less? Waiting for your answer.
Because there is a good profit margin in it?

Just a guess.
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Old 01-09-2013, 18:03   #19
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In Canada, you can get a Norinco 870 clone with a 12.5", 14" and ghost ring sights for around 350-400. The American-made 870 is a better gun, using what I suspect is better materials. The reason why the real 870 is more expensive is because Remington has to pay for things like liability, R&D, customer service, warranty, living wages for their employees, etc.
The Express model is not very well finished, but the 870 Police is the Cadillac of defensive pump-action shotguns.
I would use a Chinese clone to screw around with in the woods or on the range, but not if I needed it to defend myself against a bear.
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Old 01-09-2013, 18:32   #20
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China can indeed occasionally make some good guns.

If you're fine with sending money to the Chinese Communist party, be my guest.
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Old 01-09-2013, 18:59   #21
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China can indeed occasionally make some good guns.

If you're fine with sending money to the Chinese Communist party, be my guest.


I'm sure nothing in your house, vehicle or that you've purchased in the last month or so was made, assembled or contains parts from China.
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Old 01-09-2013, 19:24   #22
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I'm sure the gun fires and will do so to meet the needs of a lot of users however I question the long term viability of gun that was designed to be a knockoff, of sorts.

I'm sure the occasional shooter, hunter or plinker will not exceed the capabilities of the gun however a serious student of HD/SD will typically fire off more rounds in practice and training in a month than an occasional shooter does in a year. For that reason I choose an 870.

We've all been into the 99 Cents Only store or something equivalent and as we browse their wares you undoubtedly have said, "Yeah, it's a (blank) alright however I wonder how long it would last if I used it." That's how I feel about these knockoff guns. Same way I feel about Davis, Phoenix or other cheaply manufactured guns.

I'll plink with anything so long as it's safe and in good working order but for long durability, reliability and my peace of mind I'd stay with the 870.
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Old 01-09-2013, 19:59   #23
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Quite a bit of it is, and whenever possible, i still buy American/European.
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Old 01-09-2013, 20:12   #24
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The only complaint I have with my Pardner is that I have to jam the shells into the magazine tube pretty hard to get them in there. I think I could hone the spring/catch mechanism that holds them in the mag tube and it would help. I have a newer 870 Express with 28" VR barrel and I'm not impressed with the quality. The problem with the 870 is I can't unload the mag tube without pumping all of the shells out. The spring/ catch doesn't depress far enough to allow me to unload it.
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Old 01-09-2013, 20:23   #25
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I'm sure nothing in your house, vehicle or that you've purchased in the last month or so was made, assembled or contains parts from China.
Proud to say, other than wallmart socks, nothing and I mean nothing in my house is from modern day China. I would bet money I don't have () on that.
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