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Old 01-05-2013, 20:16   #176
CAcop
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Originally Posted by 2bgop View Post
I said they could, which absolutely is true.

You said a sheriff could force a legislature to appropriate money and a court could hold an state legislator in contempt if they didn't take an legislative action. All of which is absolutely not true.
Theoretically they could but are you seriously thinking a legislature would actually do that because of one ruling? Aside from your fantasies.
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Old 01-05-2013, 20:17   #177
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This retard also understands that you are clueless if you think a county sheriff is going to force a general assembly to appropriate money.
You know what my problem is I actually fell into the trap of playing theoretical games with you.
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Old 01-05-2013, 20:20   #178
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Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
Theoretically they could but are you seriously thinking a legislature would actually do that because of one ruling? Aside from your fantasies.
says the guy who said the court could force the assembly to appropriate money and have the local sheriff arrest them if they didn't.
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Old 01-05-2013, 20:21   #179
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
If you're going to call him names you should provide the quote where he said that.

What's really funny here is that I know what 2bgop does for a living. You don't. If you did, you would know how foolish you look.

And while I don't think a legislator would shut down the courts by "cutting off" funding, you bet your ass they could and they will tinker with it punitively.

I still can't believe you posted something so stupid, honestly. A court will hold an entire assembly in contempt for not appropriating money and send a country sheriff to arrest them.
Here is where a contempt citation would stem from.

County or city stops paying pensions or whatever.

Lawsuit ensues.

After going through all the courts it gets sent back to the lower court with "Yes they do have to pay."

Mayor or whoever said "We aren't going to pay" that started it still says we aren't going to pay.

That is where the contempt would flow.

Now if the legislature wants to get involved and cut funding they can. But the mayor or whoever still has to pay up.

Or are you saying an executive branch memeber can do whatever they want as long as they have the legislative branch behind them?
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Old 01-05-2013, 20:21   #180
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2bgop - just curious. How many attorneys do you hire each year to do what it is that you do with government agencies?
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Old 01-05-2013, 20:29   #181
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One of the things I do is help municipalities reach settlement agreements with state and federal agencies.

The EPA is leveeing fines for sewer and wastewater violations that cities simply can not comply with. A couple large midwestern cities are facing fines so large that it would constitute well over a 400% increase in sewer and water fees on residents.
Then why not have the current municipality state that because past administrations were responsible for these EPA violations, that the current administration is not responsible for them.

And also because the past administrations knew they were violating EPA laws/regulations which would "someday" cause the municipality a huge fine, the past administration has effectively forced a future debt onto a future administration. Which they can't do. Which, therefore, the current administration should not be legally responsible for.
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Old 01-05-2013, 20:29   #182
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
2bgop - just curious. How many attorneys do you hire each year to do what it is that you do with government agencies?
Personally, I always have a few on staff. However, when we staff up, it can be a couple dozen at any one time.
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Old 01-05-2013, 20:34   #183
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Then why not have the current municipality state that because past administrations were responsible for these EPA violations, that the current administration is not responsible for them.

And also because the past administrations knew they were violating EPA laws/regulations which would "someday" cause the municipality a huge fine, the past administration has effectively forced a future debt onto a future administration. Which they can't do. Which, therefore, the current administration should not be legally responsible for.
A muni does have the ability to tell the feds to take a hike, they don't because they don't have backbone to do it, but they certainly can.
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Old 01-05-2013, 20:35   #184
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Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
Here is where a contempt citation would stem from.

County or city stops paying pensions or whatever.

Lawsuit ensues.

After going through all the courts it gets sent back to the lower court with "Yes they do have to pay."

Mayor or whoever said "We aren't going to pay" that started it still says we aren't going to pay.

That is where the contempt would flow.

Now if the legislature wants to get involved and cut funding they can. But the mayor or whoever still has to pay up.

Or are you saying an executive branch memeber can do whatever they want as long as they have the legislative branch behind them?


The executive can't pay if the legislative doesn't appropriate the money.

I guess that's when you send the local sheriff to arrest the entire California Assembly?

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Old 01-05-2013, 20:36   #185
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Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
Here is where a contempt citation would stem from.

County or city stops paying pensions or whatever.

Lawsuit ensues.

After going through all the courts it gets sent back to the lower court with "Yes they do have to pay."

Mayor or whoever said "We aren't going to pay" that started it still says we aren't going to pay.

That is where the contempt would flow.

Now if the legislature wants to get involved and cut funding they can. But the mayor or whoever still has to pay up.

Or are you saying an executive branch memeber can do whatever they want as long as they have the legislative branch behind them?
So would the sheriff go to a city council meeting and force a majority of council members to vote to appropriate the money? Does he get to hold them in jail until they agree to vote yes?
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Old 01-05-2013, 20:38   #186
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Then why not have the current municipality state that because past administrations were responsible for these EPA violations, that the current administration is not responsible for them.

And also because the past administrations knew they were violating EPA laws/regulations which would "someday" cause the municipality a huge fine, the past administration has effectively forced a future debt onto a future administration. Which they can't do. Which, therefore, the current administration should not be legally responsible for.
Oh dear God
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Old 01-05-2013, 20:40   #187
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So would the sheriff go to a city council meeting and force a majority of council members to vote to appropriate the money? Does he get to hold them in jail until they agree to vote yes?
If the courts rule that something is unconstitutional then there is no need for a vote unless they want to rewrite the law so that it stands review.

My city just had a muni code ruled uncon. What would happen if I kept writing tickets based on it?

The city is wisely rewriting the law rather than telling me to keep writing.
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Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
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Old 01-05-2013, 20:44   #188
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Originally Posted by 2bgop View Post
A muni does have the ability to tell the feds to take a hike, they don't because they don't have backbone to do it, but they certainly can.
In the EPA situation, what would be the repercussions for the municipality? Future federal funding? What else?
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Old 01-05-2013, 20:48   #189
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Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
If the courts rule that something is unconstitutional then there is no need for a vote unless they want to rewrite the law so that it stands review.

My city just had a muni code ruled uncon. What would happen if I kept writing tickets based on it?

The city is wisely rewriting the law rather than telling me to keep writing.
The court would hold your agency in contempt and send the state police to arrest your entire agency.
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Old 01-05-2013, 20:48   #190
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Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
If the courts rule that something is unconstitutional then there is no need for a vote unless they want to rewrite the law so that it stands review.

My city just had a muni code ruled uncon. What would happen if I kept writing tickets based on it?

The city is wisely rewriting the law rather than telling me to keep writing.
That is not even close to the same. It required no action at all, once it was ruled in violation of the state or federal constitution, it just doesn't exist anymore. If they rewrite it, that is their decision.

How would the sheriff force to city council to appropriate money? I mean physically force them to do it? How does it happen, does he go take a check from the treasurer and write it himself?
Would he arrest anyone who didn't vote the way a court ruled?
Would be arrest them and then hold them until they agreed to vote a certain way?

Last edited by 2bgop; 01-05-2013 at 21:01..
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Old 01-05-2013, 20:50   #191
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In the EPA situation, what would be the repercussions for the municipality? Future federal funding? What else?
Yeah, almost entirely based on funding. There are a few other things they could use to screw with them, but almost everything comes back to money. No surprise there.
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Old 01-05-2013, 20:55   #192
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Since you live in CO I expect you to be where we are now in 20 years, maybe less. Remember CA voted Bush in 1988. It was considered a toss up state in 1992. Who did your state vote for the last two elections?
Coloradans voted Republican. Californians who moved to CO voted democrat. Our only problem is that the Federal law forbids us from not allowing Californians in.

BTW. My state income tax is half of what your is. That right there is a big incentive..
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Old 01-05-2013, 20:59   #193
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I'm guessing you participate in a public pension too since you jumped back in to wave the stupid flag. I mostly ignored this earlier but we can go ahead and pick it apart since you're back in.

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Bind future legislatures for...

social programs like social security and medicaid?
Excellent example. The congress could end either of those programs tomorrow if they could grow a set of balls or believe they could weather the political storm. Period. End of story.

Social Security and medicare are nothing more than tax and spend entitlement welfare programs with a super powerful lobby.

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programs like purchasing copier & toilet paper, office equipment, and such?
Of course. You think a legislature is somehow bound to purchase toilet paper on a multiyear contract that is iron clad?

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programs like constructing capital infrastructure?
Yes. Those can certainly be defunded. Hell, DOD cancels new weapons all the time. There are threads right here on GT about it.

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programs like building and running county/state medical centers (or even VA hospitals), which are usually the only Level I trauma centers in the area?
Without a doubt. In fact, Louisiana is currently considering this very thing with its old Charity Hospital system. After Katrina, the VA Hospital in New Orleans never re-opened.

The legislature has no constitutional requirement to fund a Level I trauma center. What was that about?

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continued fundings for agencies such as EPA, FDA, DOT?
The Congress can absolutely defund federal agencies. Do you not remember the talk of the Republican House defunding Obamacare?

Do you know that there is a current law providing for a department to work with convicted felons who have served their time and wish to have their constitutional rights re-instated?

It has no funding.

Quote:
Are you talking a blanket binding/non-binding? Or binding/non-binding with some programs/funding, while not with others?
There is no such thing as a multi year binding contract with the government.

Last edited by certifiedfunds; 01-05-2013 at 21:07..
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Old 01-05-2013, 21:26   #194
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Coloradans voted Republican. Californians who moved to CO voted democrat. Our only problem is that the Federal law forbids us from not allowing Californians in.

BTW. My state income tax is half of what your is. That right there is a big incentive..
Doesn't matter where they are from it is where they vote that counts.

20 years is long enough for a generation of voters born of CA immigrants in CO to turn your state into CA.

Don't count on your tax rate staying where it is.
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Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
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Old 01-06-2013, 01:03   #195
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If you are a public employee those "employer contributions" are tax money. Your entire compensation package is tax money. Don't play word games.
I wasn't playing word games. Nor was I being disingenuous. Of course funds used by gov agencies are the result of taxes (although some small donations do occur, of course). How else would the public ever receive any services, of even the most basic type, from any form of government if not funded by taxes?

No special taxes, though (like ballot measures, dedicated parcel taxes, etc).

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And who started this crap where it became acceptable for public employees to retire at 50 or 55?
When I was hired the typical life expectancy for a retired cop was often said to be an average of 2 years. The stresses of the job, along with injuries and what's now considered as 'presumptive' health conditions related to the working conditions, took their toll on cops.

It's not an unknown situation for people working in LE.

Perhaps it's better health care, nowadays, along with a better awareness of encouraging healthy lifestyles for public safety employees, and probably better preventive health care, which has seemingly benefited retirees who left the field after the 70's & 80's. Dunno. I can say that I'm seeing people of my "generation" retiring and living longer.

A separate (but related) issue which municipalities have been facing in recent years are work-related disability retirements.

When a large city finds that 70% of its public safety (fire/police) retirements have been work-related disability retirements, what would you change to prevent that from happening?

Even when you factor out the fraudulent claims, it's still a staggering percentage of the workforce that's being injured on the job (including exposure to hazardous materials, pathogens, etc) and are unable to continue serving in their public safety careers.

Personally ... and I acknowledge some small amount of personal bias in this regard ... I think that serving in the public safety field for 25-35 years ought to be long enough for anybody, regardless of what age someone starts.

BTW, I worked in the private sector for more than 10 years before entering LE. My family never had the same sort of everyday worries about whether I'd be coming home at the end of the day.
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Old 01-06-2013, 03:08   #196
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And while it's totally underwater let's promise more benefits.
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Old 01-06-2013, 05:15   #197
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I'm employed in the fire service in Alabama, and I'm a 20+ year Retirement Systems of Alabama(RSA) member.

If it weren't for the RSA, the state's tourism would suck. The RSA developed the Robert Trent Jones Golf Trail and has done more to promote the state than the state has.

This being said, necessary changes to the RSA were made recently to stabilize the pension system. If the teachers would relent and give up their ultra cheap state paid for insurance that cops and firefighters do not get, it would be even more solvent.

Alas, the teachers side of the system is filled with unsatiable socialists.

I think I'm in the last generation of what we know as a traditional pension system, and rightfully so. The world is changing. Adapt or die.
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Old 01-06-2013, 05:56   #198
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I'm guessing you participate in a public pension too since you jumped back in to wave the stupid flag. I mostly ignored this earlier but we can go ahead and pick it apart since you're back in.
Absolutely in a public pension. 16 years years ago, when I first got in, the pension system told me that if I participated, they promised certain levels of retirement benefits. And in return, I agreed that I would contribute 7.5-percent of my pay, for the next 25 years. Of continuous service. And so a bargain was struck. If today, after 16 years of meeting their every demand and requirement, the pension system says "sorry, we're eliminating or decreasing your promised pension" you're darn right I'd fight.

Also, because for the past 16 years I've relied on their pension promise, my pension is an important part of my retirement plans.

Compensate me fairly today, for giving up my pension tomorrow? I'd seriously consider it. But if they can't compensate me fairly, and because for the past 16 years I've relied on their promises, I'm going to make sure I get everything that was promised me.



Quote:
Excellent example. The congress could end either of those programs tomorrow if they could grow a set of balls or believe they could weather the political storm. Period. End of story.

Social Security and medicare are nothing more than tax and spend entitlement welfare programs with a super powerful lobby.
Not to mention SS and medicare are mandatory enrollment. I never had a choice to opt out of SS. If I could get all my principle back from SS (Im not even asking for interest that began in 1978) today and not be part of it tomorrow, I would. SS was never part of my retirement plans, so I couldn't care less if it is eliminated all together.



Quote:
Of course. You think a legislature is somehow bound to purchase toilet paper on a multiyear contract that is iron clad?



Yes. Those can certainly be defunded. Hell, DOD cancels new weapons all the time. There are threads right here on GT about it.



Without a doubt. In fact, Louisiana is currently considering this very thing with its old Charity Hospital system. After Katrina, the VA Hospital in New Orleans never re-opened.

The legislature has no constitutional requirement to fund a Level I trauma center. What was that about?


The Congress can absolutely defund federal agencies. Do you not remember the talk of the Republican House defunding Obamacare?

Do you know that there is a current law providing for a department to work with convicted felons who have served their time and wish to have their constitutional rights re-instated?

It has no funding.

There is no such thing as a multi year binding contract with the government.
These are just examples of different government contracts and projects where it's easier for some to be cancelled without repercussions than others.

Yes, Gov't have a right to cancel/defund. Fine. Let them.
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Last edited by Patchman; 01-06-2013 at 11:52..
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:27   #199
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But if they can't compensate me fairly, and because for the past 16 years I've relied on their promises, I'm going to make sure I get everything that was promised me.

You'll get everything they promise. Just not in the form you expected. You'll be paid in highly devalued US dollars (or, worse yet, State issued IOU's) and be told to stand in the Obamacare line for your healthcare.

The State will declare the "promise" was upheld.
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Old 01-06-2013, 07:46   #200
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"I'm guessing you participate in a public pension too since you jumped back in to wave the stupid flag."

The stupid flag? I used to think you had at least a little class.
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