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Old 01-05-2013, 17:40   #126
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Originally Posted by Bruce M View Post
Actually that sounds like it might be the perfect solution to the government related fiscal issues. Each government entity that owes money could simply pass legislation saying they will not honor the obligation. No more debt with a simple legislative change.
Keep watching then
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Old 01-05-2013, 17:42   #127
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Don't forget, this is at 50 to 80% of base salary averaged over the last 3 years. Move from a small town to a big city your last 3 years and double your pension.
From what I understand this formula gets gamed quite frequently with employees nearing retirement padding their hours with bs assignments with a wink and a nod from their superiors.
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Old 01-05-2013, 17:44   #128
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And current legislators can change laws. These laws can be changed to say we are not honoring old obligations.
Precisely. It's amazing how so many people don't understand this simple truth
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Old 01-05-2013, 17:55   #129
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Originally Posted by Bruce M View Post
Actually that sounds like it might be the perfect solution to the government related fiscal issues. Each government entity that owes money could simply pass legislation saying they will not honor the obligation. No more debt with a simple legislative change.
Would you as a business owner ever do work for the government knowing they can cancel your contract without having to pay you?

I ask because CalTrans does not build roads. They hire private companies to do that. Would anyone take on roadbuilding if they knew the government could pass a law forbiding payment for that work?
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Old 01-05-2013, 18:08   #130
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Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
Would you as a business owner ever do work for the government knowing they can cancel your contract without having to pay you?

I ask because CalTrans does not build roads. They hire private companies to do that. Would anyone take on roadbuilding if they knew the government could pass a law forbiding payment for that work?
I am telling you for a fact the answer is yes and many thousands of yeses are said each year. I do this almost everyday of my life for a living, there are contracts worth hundreds of millions a year to private companies that are absolutely subject to appropriation. The fact it is true is the reason I get paid.

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Old 01-05-2013, 18:13   #131
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Would you as a business owner ever do work for the government knowing they can cancel your contract without having to pay you?

I ask because CalTrans does not build roads. They hire private companies to do that. Would anyone take on roadbuilding if they knew the government could pass a law forbiding payment for that work?
I also negotiate multiyear contracts with government entities. We have special contracts and terms for them (which are basically THEIR contracts and terms). Without fail every single one of them has an annual out clause because it is contingent on the government body appropriating the money to satisfy the terms of the contract.

This is standard stuff.

Now, what we know is that because most governments employ some form of baseline budgeting, the chances of it not getting funded are low. Nonetheless it is a risk.

Apparently the only folks who think the government can't choose not to pay on any given year are those who expect a pension, salary or welfare (Social Security, Medicare, Housing) check.
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Old 01-05-2013, 18:27   #132
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I also negotiate multiyear contracts with government entities. We have special contracts and terms for them (which are basically THEIR contracts and terms). Without fail every single one of them has an annual out clause because it is contingent on the government body appropriating the money to satisfy the terms of the contract.

This is standard stuff.

Now, what we know is that because most governments employ some form of baseline budgeting, the chances of it not getting funded are low. Nonetheless it is a risk.

Apparently the only folks who think the government can't choose not to pay on any given year are those who expect a pension, salary or welfare (Social Security, Medicare, Housing) check.
You are just talking about a multiyear contract being cancelled early. I m talking, your company delivers the product and then the government says, "**** you, we ain't paying."

Can they do that per your contract with them?
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Old 01-05-2013, 18:38   #133
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You are just talking about a multiyear contract being cancelled early. I m talking, your company delivers the product and then the government says, "**** you, we ain't paying."

Can they do that per your contract with them?
I've never heard of it. Depends on what the law says. The government can't spend a dime until it is appopriated. Let me give you an example that might be sort of what you're talking about:

I sell $1MM worth of instrumentation to a government entity on a lease. The lease has a term of 36 months. The gov requires an annual out clause in case the government doesn't appropriate the money. Its called a muni lease.

When the lease is signed, the 3rd party leasing company (or even finance company under our corporate umbrella) funds our company the entire amount (less finance charges). We're whole. Now, if the money doesn't get appropriated, the leasing company gets the equipment back. We have our money and they have used equipment that they have to figure out how to dispose of for pennies on the dollar. IOW, the finance company gets screwed.

What are you getting at? How is not paying for a delivered product relevant to this discussion?

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Old 01-05-2013, 18:44   #134
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
I've never heard of it. Depends on what the law says. The government can't spend a dime until it is appopriated. Let me give you an example that might be sort of what you're talking about:

I sell $1MM worth of instrumentation to a government entity on a lease. The lease has a term of 36 months. The gov requires an annual out clause in case the government doesn't appropriate the money. Its called a muni lease.

When the lease is signed, the 3rd party leasing company (or even finance company under our corporate umbrella) funds our company the entire amount (less finance charges). We're whole. Now, if the money doesn't get appropriated, the leasing company gets the equipment back. We have our money and they have used equipment that they have to figure out how to dispose of for pennies on the dollar. IOW, the finance company gets screwed.

What are you getting at? How is not paying for a delivered product relevant to this discussion?
Just seeing what people know about contract law.
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Old 01-05-2013, 18:54   #135
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Just seeing what people know about contract law.
I dont know much. We have legal.

You?
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Old 01-05-2013, 18:59   #136
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Just seeing what people know about contract law.
Try me.

How does a court force a legislature to appropriate money? What does the court do when a legislature says piss off?
Who appropriates to the money to fund the court system?
When a state's court system submits a budget request, who does it go to?
When they present their request, who is the person they call Mr/Mrs Chairman/Woman?

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Old 01-05-2013, 19:00   #137
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Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
You are just talking about a multiyear contract being cancelled early. I m talking, your company delivers the product and then the government says, "**** you, we ain't paying."

Can they do that per your contract with them?
What is a a pension other than a multi-year contract?
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Old 01-05-2013, 19:06   #138
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he's busy googling contract law
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Old 01-05-2013, 19:11   #139
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What is a a pension other than a multi-year contract?
Exactly my point. His company hedges his bets by having a finanicing company pay them up front. The financing company takes the hit if the government welches. Of course this is not without cost. I am sure it is pased onto the consumer/taxpayer.
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I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
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Old 01-05-2013, 19:20   #140
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Try me.

How does a court force a legislature to appropriate money?In CA the Sheriff would. Or at the very least a lien/collections would be placed. What does the court do when a legislature says piss off?Find the person who made the decision in contempt. It could actually be the hoosegow or it could be just a fine. Take a look at some city's fight against pro 2A rlings.
Who appropriates to the money to fund the court system? The statehouse. But you are telling me they are going to cut funding to the courts? It would have to be all funding becuase as the courts have shown recently they can get by on crumbs if we get creative with the law. Judges do not like being told to pound sand.
When a state's court system submits a budget request, who does it go to? In CA there is no such thing as a budget request. You either get the money you would like or you don't. You still have to do the job. Of course civil actions take a back seat to criminal actions. BTW contempt is a criminal action.
When they present their request, who is the person they call Mr/Mrs Chairman/Woman?huh?
I don't know about your state but in CA this matter was handled in the 1940s. The only way out for a city is bankruptcy. Even then they are stuck with certain realities. SJ voters slashed pay and benes by ballot. They are bleeding good employees. The SO in my county just picked up a bunch of guys from SJPD. The resumes of these guys is impressive. Homicide, Narc, SWAT. And that is just one of their guys. I think they even picked up a Sgt. The Assistant Chiefs are bailing too. The Chief is leaving earlier than expected.

Like I said before you can stamp your feet all you want but it isn't goingt o change a thing. In case you didn't notice 2012 didn't turn out quite the way we would like. Of course I live in CA so I have watched this train wreck before.
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I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT

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Old 01-05-2013, 19:23   #141
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Exactly my point. His company hedges his bets by having a finanicing company pay them up front. The financing company takes the hit if the government welches. Of course this is not without cost. I am sure it is pased onto the consumer/taxpayer.
Whenever someone has to default on a contract, there are losers.

The problem you seem to have with this concept, is that you think the tax payers should be the losers and not the public employees. In the world of provate companies, the party who is owed money is typically the loser.

When money is gone, someone is going to feel pain. Now it is just a discussion of WHO should feel the pain.
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Old 01-05-2013, 19:26   #142
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Like I said before you can stamp your feet all you want but it isn't goingt o change a thing. In case you didn't notice 2012 didn't turn out quite the way we would like. Of course I live in CA so I have watched this train wreck before.
You are missing something. CA is bleeding business away because of what the CA govt is doing. This makes the downward spiral faster.
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Old 01-05-2013, 19:26   #143
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Whenever someone has to default on a contract, there are losers.

The problem you seem to have with this concept, is that you think the tax payers should be the losers and not the public employees. In the world of provate companies, the party who is owed money is typically the loser.

When money is gone, someone is going to feel pain. Now it is just a discussion of WHO should feel the pain.
Examine Vallejo and their bankruptcy. You may learn something if you care to see.
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I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
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Old 01-05-2013, 19:29   #144
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Whenever someone has to default on a contract, there are losers.

The problem you seem to have with this concept, is that you think the tax payers should be the losers and not the public employees. In the world of provate companies, the party who is owed money is typically the loser.

When money is gone, someone is going to feel pain. Now it is just a discussion of WHO should feel the pain.
Nice concise summary
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Old 01-05-2013, 19:30   #145
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You are missing something. CA is bleeding business away because of what the CA govt is doing. This makes the downward spiral faster.
No I have noticed. What is interesting is that it isn't so much businesses leaving it is when they expand they expand elsewhere. Then the middle class follows. See Austin for details.
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Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
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Old 01-05-2013, 19:30   #146
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Exactly my point. His company hedges his bets by having a finanicing company pay them up front. The financing company takes the hit if the government welches. Of course this is not without cost. I am sure it is pased onto the consumer/taxpayer.
Exactly wrong. You don't know much about revenue recognition in the post SarbOx world.

That is how a capital lease works if you buy a car as well.

We design manufacture and sell medical instrumentation. We don't hold paper. We don't take payments and we don't extend terms beyond 30 days because they all affect revenue recognition. You buy it from us or you buy it from the leasing company and they buy it from us.

Muni leases are relatively rare and generally only used when the institution does not have the capital available to spend and has a significant need.

So you asked the question with an agenda, formed an uninformed opinion based on my honest answer and you're still wrong.

What was your point again? Contract law or finance?
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Old 01-05-2013, 19:32   #147
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No I have noticed. What is interesting is that it isn't so much businesses leaving it is when they expand they expand elsewhere. Then the middle class follows. See Austin for details.
Costs too much to up and leave all at once. What will happen is they will expand in other areas as phase 1. Then as phase two, they will move out when the other area is up and running.
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Old 01-05-2013, 19:33   #148
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I don't know about your state but in CA this matter was handled in the 1940s. The only way out for a city is bankruptcy. Even then they are stuck with certain realities. SJ voters slashed pay and benes by ballot. They are bleeding good employees. The SO in my county just picked up a bunch of guys from SJPD. The resumes of these guys is impressive. Homicide, Narc, SWAT. And that is just one of their guys. I think they even picked up a Sgt. The Assistant Chiefs are bailing too. The Chief is leaving earlier than expected.

Like I said before you can stamp your feet all you want but it isn't goingt o change a thing. In case you didn't notice 2012 didn't turn out quite the way we would like. Of course I live in CA so I have watched this train wreck before.
I never thought you were an unintelligent person until this post, specifically the red text you inserted in the quote. If you think the judicial can force the legislative to appropriate money, you're a moron.
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Old 01-05-2013, 19:35   #149
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Examine Vallejo and their bankruptcy. You may learn something if you care to see.
Instead of playing coy and pretending that you actually countered his point effectively, why don't you provide the relevant information here and teach us. You obviously have great knowledge of it and how it applies.

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Old 01-05-2013, 19:36   #150
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I don't know about your state but in CA this matter was handled in the 1940s. The only way out for a city is bankruptcy. Even then they are stuck with certain realities. SJ voters slashed pay and benes by ballot. They are bleeding good employees. The SO in my county just picked up a bunch of guys from SJPD. The resumes of these guys is impressive. Homicide, Narc, SWAT. And that is just one of their guys. I think they even picked up a Sgt. The Assistant Chiefs are bailing too. The Chief is leaving earlier than expected.

Like I said before you can stamp your feet all you want but it isn't goingt o change a thing. In case you didn't notice 2012 didn't turn out quite the way we would like. Of course I live in CA so I have watched this train wreck before.
Get real. A country sheriff is going to force a state legislature to appropriate money for a certain program? That isn't even close to realistic.

I don't do a bunch of work in CA, but I do know for a fact that the state court system does present a proposed budget to both the house and senate budget committees.

As far as your 2nd amendment argument, this isn't a court finding a state statue or city ordinance unconstitutional, which is what they are there for, this is a court forcing a legislature to take a legislative action. That would be the definition of a separation of powers violation.

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