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Old 01-07-2013, 08:30   #376
DanaT
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Originally Posted by tommyj61 View Post
We don't pay into social security. We do pay medicare/medicaid. If you earn over forty quarters in social security through other employment you would qualify, but it's at a much lower offset.
So lets sum this up for all the public employees that "contributed" 10% of "their money" and the employer "contributed 10%".

The employee didnt pay 7.65% FICA tax. So,my math says 10-7.65 = 2.35%

So, the employees "contribute" of their salary 2.35% and the employer "contributes" 2.35% and they believe that they are "promised" a life time pension based upon paying 2.35% for a much shorter time that private sector employees work.

Oh, and look, they have figured out how to not pay FICA taxes and also reap the rewards by working just 10 years. So work your entire career without paying FICA and then figure out how to pay some level of FICA for 10 years post career and they get to collect both.

It is rare they admit this.

So patchman and CACop...what FICA tax rate do you pay?
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:33   #377
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I'm 42. I have a lifelong friend who is retiring as a detective this year with the local PD. Retiring at 43. He's been a street cop his entire career.

I've seen folks here post about how the job takes such a toll on you that you need to retire physically at an early age. I gotta tell you this guy is fine. He isn't physically beat up. He's out hunting and fishing and doing all sorts of stuff. He's very well known in the community and I expect he'll pick up another lucrative job in retirement.

This whole early retirement thing is bogus from the getgo. Packages like that are the reason a lot of folks choose this route.
We can't retire until 50 and you take a hit for each year prior to 55. Not sure what system would let you start collecting at 43 without taking a major hit.
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:39   #378
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Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
So lets sum this up for all the public employees that "contributed" 10% of "their money" and the employer "contributed 10%".

The employee didnt pay 7.65% FICA tax. So,my math says 10-7.65 = 2.35%

So, the employees "contribute" of their salary 2.35% and the employer "contributes" 2.35% and they believe that they are "promised" a life time pension based upon paying 2.35% for a much shorter time that private sector employees work.

Oh, and look, they have figured out how to not pay FICA taxes and also reap the rewards by working just 10 years. So work your entire career without paying FICA and then figure out how to pay some level of FICA for 10 years post career and they get to collect both.

It is rare they admit this.

So patchman and CACop...what FICA tax rate do you
pay?
You would be paying into social security through other or prior employment. There's an offset if you collect a public pension.
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:56   #379
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We can't retire until 50 and you take a hit for each year prior to 55. Not sure what system would let you start collecting at 43 without taking a major hit.
And what is the age for collecting social security?

Are you surprised when people find out you have only effectively paying 2.35% contribution, get full lifetime pension 10 years before people who are paying your salary get to collect social security, and then think something needs to be done to overhaul the public employee retirement scheme?
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:57   #380
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You would be paying into social security through other or prior employment. There's an offset if you collect a public pension.
Its still called double dipping.
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:59   #381
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So, how many public employees would support a pension plan for private sector employees, where the private sector employees could opt of FICA, they could then pay their FICA contribution + 2.35% into the fund, retire with 80% salary at 55 years of age, and public employees were expected to make up any shortfall in funds?
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:07   #382
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Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
So, how many public employees would support a pension plan for private sector employees, where the private sector employees could opt of FICA, they could then pay their FICA contribution + 2.35% into the fund, retire with 80% salary at 55 years of age, and public employees were expected to make up any shortfall in funds?
that would be sa-weet!
It would never work though because they aren't generating any taxes to pay the private sector's benefits.

See my post above about my cop buddy retiring at 43.

Last edited by certifiedfunds; 01-07-2013 at 09:08..
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:12   #383
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Funny, govt employees think they should be exempt from SS but not the rest of us.

Dirty secret, many govt employees dont pay SS. Many times the 10% that Sharky is talking about by employer contributions of 10% by govts is in lieu of employer FICA with holding and the the employee contributions are in lieu of FICA withholdings. So in effect, they are really contributing anything other than taxes that a private employer/employee would be paying but they think they have been promised something because they dont pay FICA/SECA and instead it goes into a "fund".

So, pathcman and sharky,what is your FICA and SECA withholding rate?
I've said this before, but I'll repeat it for you again. We don't have the choice to opt out of SS. If I did, I would.

And I contribute 7.5-percent into my pension. The agency contributes 4.75-percent. And the pension caps out at 70-percent of salary, after 35 years of continuous service.

It's not as rosy as you make it sound, DanaT.
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:14   #384
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that would be sa-weet!
It would never work though because they aren't generating any taxes to pay the private sector's benefits.

See my post above about my cop buddy retiring at 43.
No, it would work. We just vote to increase their taxes to sustain the program.

Maybe this is the way to break their pensions. Go on a state by level and get sympathetic legislators (there are many) to allow any citizen of the state to be able to buy into any public pension fund that anyone working in the area where they live is eligible for with the same contributions and exemptions.

After all, if it is a solvent system, more people paying in only make it more stable.
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:18   #385
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I've said this before, but I'll repeat it for you again. We don't have the choice to opt out of SS. If I did, I would.
And you ignore, the question, what is the FICA rate taken out of your check?

I just wrote a check for 4th quarter. I paid 10.4% to OASDI and 2.9% to HI. That totals 13.3%.
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:24   #386
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No, it would work. We just vote to increase their taxes to sustain the program.
Oh, I get it now. We just vote for it. Cool.

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Maybe this is the way to break their pensions. Go on a state by level and get sympathetic legislators (there are many) to allow any citizen of the state to be able to buy into any public pension fund that anyone working in the area where they live is eligible for with the same contributions and exemptions.

After all, if it is a solvent system, more people paying in only make it more stable.
Clearly it is a proven successful method of providing large groups of people with generous early retirement. We should build on that.

So long as we're promised it and some of our paycheck goes into it, we should be paid whatever is promised.

Sounds like a winner! I'm in!
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:29   #387
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So, how many public employees would support a pension plan for private sector employees, where the private sector employees could opt of FICA, they could then pay their FICA contribution + 2.35% into the fund, retire with 80% salary at 55 years of age, and public employees were expected to make up any shortfall in funds?
I would support a plan where public employees get year end performance bonuses-like those available to private industry.
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:43   #388
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And you ignore, the question, what is the FICA rate taken out of your check?

I just wrote a check for 4th quarter. I paid 10.4% to OASDI and 2.9% to HI. That totals 13.3%.
I have no idea the percentage. IIRC, in 2012 I paid SS tax totaling $6820 or $6830?
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:46   #389
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I would support a plan where public employees get year end performance bonuses-like those available to private industry.
They already do. The proof is that my wife WAS a public sector employee (ding ding ding..how do you think i know they dont pay FICA) and she got bonuses occasionally. Other people in the organization got tax free bonuses (hint..it was all put into public employee's "deferred compensation" accounts and not subject to taxation and pubic employees that do this are not subjected to the contribution limits that 401(k) are subjected to).

Its always quite funny to so these public employees talk and talk thinking no-one has a clue.

Just because YOU are not high enough on the food chain to get them, doesnt mean they dont exist. But this is just like private sector employees. How many of them do you think actually get bonuses? Beyond that, meaningful bonuses? (answer..not many..you have to be high on the food chain to get these).

So, it is obvious part of your issue is that you think that people that make a lot of money should be funding you.
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:51   #390
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I'm 42. I have a lifelong friend who is retiring as a detective this year with the local PD. Retiring at 43. He's been a street cop his entire career.

I've seen folks here post about how the job takes such a toll on you that you need to retire physically at an early age. I gotta tell you this guy is fine. He isn't physically beat up. He's out hunting and fishing and doing all sorts of stuff. He's very well known in the community and I expect he'll pick up another lucrative job in retirement.

This whole early retirement thing is bogus from the getgo. Packages like that are the reason a lot of folks choose this route.
You're friend is fortunate. Good for him, though.

I've had the opportunity to know hundreds of cops who've retired. Not many of them started at 18-21, so they were still working well into their 50's. Some later. Some into their 60's & 70's (with 35-45+ years of service).

The ones I've known who retired as early as your friend (not those who simply quit and moved on) had to go out due to work-related injuries or illness.

Good for your friend.
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:56   #391
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I would support a plan where public employees get year end performance bonuses-like those available to private industry.
Many do get performance bonuses.
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Old 01-07-2013, 10:05   #392
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Pacman,

You seem to be taking this very personally. You seem to be hearing "take patchmans pension away." I personally dont blame you for wanting to take everything you can out of the system. I seriously doubt I will ever get anything from Social Security as they are already throwing out means testing. That doesnt mean I will take out what I can.

What we are saying, is just like Social Security, it is underfunded and not a sustainable system. It doesnt matter why it happened, just like Social Security, it is not sustainable in the current form. You can either accept that now and plan for it, or be shocked when you count on it and it doesn't come through.

These systems have been based upon ever growing revenue streams and short payout durations. There is not enough going in to cover liabilities to the system and people are living too long taking out too much money.

Govt should not be involved in paying for peoples retirement at all. They have proven that all they can do is make a mess out of it.
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Old 01-07-2013, 11:18   #393
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The public sector reacts much slower to changes then the private sector does. I chose my career because of the pension system. Many of my friends made a lot more money than I have, and early on I never heard anyone complaining about the public pension systems. Now it's a common subject and I attribute it to pension envy. In my system employees contribute 9.6% and the cities match with 14%. Ultimately that money does come from taxes. If the investments do well the system works. When you have down market years it's obviously underfunded. I think you have to look at it over a longer range of time and not under a microscope after every downturn in the market. The state has never had to kick in any funds to supplement this system.
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Old 01-07-2013, 12:00   #394
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These programs are not sustainable.

You also cannot argue that it is a market issue.

DOW is at 13362. The year change for the DOW is 8.11%.

How much better do you expect it to perform for all these models to make the pension schemes work?
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Old 01-07-2013, 14:19   #395
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We can't retire until 50 and you take a hit for each year prior to 55. Not sure what system would let you start collecting at 43 without taking a major hit.
Many city police departments (in the south) offer a 20 year police pension. It has not a thing to do with one's age (like being under 55). I was 45...a month before turning 46, in 2004 when I retired, made my 20 year mark. The multiplier was 2.5% a year when I started and when I retired the multiplier was 3% a year (about 3 years ago the multiplier became 3.5%).

I did know some officers who retired before 55, after serving less than 20 years (like only 10 or 15 years) and they did get a penalty if they wanted to immediately collect their monthly pension payments.
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Old 01-07-2013, 15:07   #396
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The public sector reacts much slower to changes then the private sector does. I chose my career because of the pension system. Many of my friends made a lot more money than I have, and early on I never heard anyone complaining about the public pension systems. Now it's a common subject and I attribute it to pension envy. In my system employees contribute 9.6% and the cities match with 14%. Ultimately that money does come from taxes. If the investments do well the system works. When you have down market years it's obviously underfunded. I think you have to look at it over a longer range of time and not under a microscope after every downturn in the market. The state has never had to kick in any funds to supplement this system.
It isn't that you get a nice retirement package at a young age. It isn't pension envy. Believe it or not it isn't even ungratefulness for the job you did. It is that the government made promises it can't keep and as taxpayers we know that they will come for our hide to get the money or collapse the system.

its the old saying about "if it seems too good to be true it probably is"
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Old 01-07-2013, 15:36   #397
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I would support a plan where public employees get year end performance bonuses-like those available to private industry.
What would your performance bonus be based on? Who would pay for it?
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Old 01-07-2013, 15:39   #398
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The public sector reacts much slower to changes then the private sector does. I chose my career because of the pension system.
The translation of "I chose my career because of the pension system" is: "I made a choice to trust others to manage the money that will pay for my retirement. Rather than collecting more now and managing it myself, I chose to let someone else do it for me."

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, as far is it goes. But by and large, those people screwed the people that trusted them.

Part of the reason why I didn't make a career in government service is that I don't trust anyone else to look after my money. I'll save for my own retirement so that I'm never in the position of depending on a pension that ends up not coming.
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Old 01-07-2013, 15:55   #399
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So what? None of you hunt ducks?
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Old 01-07-2013, 15:57   #400
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So what? None of you hunt ducks?
I got two this morning

The Okie Corral
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