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Old 01-06-2013, 19:22   #351
DanaT
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Where I'm at, the jurisdiction is not yet anywhere close to filing for bankruptcy.

For a supposed entrepreneur, you're a little too quick to jump on the bankruptcy bandwagon.

Glad I didn't have the $3 million you were fishing for.
I am? There comes a point when you cut losses and run. A smart person who likes their money knows this.

Trust me, I dont need your $3M. It was just a good opportunity for you.
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Old 01-06-2013, 19:25   #352
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Originally Posted by Sharky7 View Post
It is not considered a re-appropriation in the above example. It is considered a liability.

If you are a contract employee for the state - that would be like me going into your checking account and withdrawing (re-appropriating) a few paychecks from last year.
Or like if you have had something, paid all the taxes on, die and then it gets taxed again?

Whether we like it or not, govt always has the power to change the rules in the middle of the game.
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Old 01-06-2013, 19:30   #353
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All this arguing over who has to pay and contracts and Constitutions is retarded.

THERE IS NO MONEY TO PAY ALL THESE PROMISES/OBLIGATIONS/WHATEVER. THE VERY SIMPLE MATH MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE.

You can ignore a legal position or a rail at politicians all you want. Still doesn't change the fact that there's not enough money on the face of the earth to honor all those promises.

You/We are screwed. The sooner we all realize the truth the faster we can move on with figuring out what we do AFTER it all falls in on itself.
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Old 01-06-2013, 19:33   #354
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Originally Posted by Sharky7 View Post
Can you please list another example.....An example that a legislator is taking away an already previously dispensed and clearly defined benefit in an employee package to pay for a state budget item they did not have the money to do.
Not to a pension fund, that would set off WW3. But I see on a very regular basis funds re-approped. Every fund sweep done at a state level is a re-approp of funds sitting in accounts designated for something specific.
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Old 01-06-2013, 20:15   #355
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Originally Posted by Sharky7 View Post
Exactly.

Just to make sure everyone who is reading understands pensions. I think you probably do, but for others...Here are some example numbers only and a very basic explanation...

Employee Bob pays 10% of his salary into pension. Gov matches that at 10%. Money in that fund is then invested.

This is quite similar to YOUR 401k. You might put in 4% and get a matching 4% every year.
So, honest question: You can withdraw your contributions and the .gov match at any time like a 401k? You have an account with your money in it and the .gov match (which is now yours)?

If it is yours, how can the legislature take it? Has this been done or not been done? I'm a bit confused after reading through to the end.

What is in place to force the .gov to continue putting in that matching %?

Last edited by certifiedfunds; 01-06-2013 at 20:16..
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Old 01-06-2013, 20:17   #356
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Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
All this arguing over who has to pay and contracts and Constitutions is retarded.

THERE IS NO MONEY TO PAY ALL THESE PROMISES/OBLIGATIONS/WHATEVER. THE VERY SIMPLE MATH MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE.

You can ignore a legal position or a rail at politicians all you want. Still doesn't change the fact that there's not enough money on the face of the earth to honor all those promises.

You/We are screwed. The sooner we all realize the truth the faster we can move on with figuring out what we do AFTER it all falls in on itself.
Don't you have a litter of puppies to kill or something?
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Old 01-06-2013, 20:19   #357
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Or like if you have had something, paid all the taxes on, die and then it gets taxed again?
They tax it again because it is their money and they were kind the first go round and didn't take it all the first time. Benevolent government they are.
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Old 01-06-2013, 21:02   #358
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Don't you have a litter of puppies to kill or something?
I just got back from 5 days of killing ducks in Arkansas. I have serious hate for ducks and made them eat lots of #2 Steel Shot over my vacation. Some of them ate so much they couldn't fly anymore...Almost as much fun as stomping baby chicks.
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Old 01-06-2013, 21:05   #359
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I just got back from 5 days of killing ducks in Arkansas. I have serious hate for ducks and made them eat lots of #2 Steel Shot over my vacation. Some of them ate so much they couldn't fly anymore...Almost as much fun as stomping baby chicks.
Geese have been crapping on my truck lately and upsetting me. I hate to come out and find goose crap all over it.
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Old 01-06-2013, 21:10   #360
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
So, honest question: You can withdraw your contributions and the .gov match at any time like a 401k? You have an account with your money in it and the .gov match (which is now yours)?

If it is yours, how can the legislature take it? Has this been done or not been done? I'm a bit confused after reading through to the end.

What is in place to force the .gov to continue putting in that matching %?
Account is just a pool account that all the money is put into, mostly called a general fund. I contribute roughly 10% of my paycheck into the account. The gov entity I work for matches that. That is all they have paid and all they will pay into the pension fund. It is factored into the salary and benefits when we allocate the funds to hire new officers.

Thankfully, police pensions in my state are controlled individually by each municipality's elected pension board. We have a pension board that is directed by elected officers and hold voted meetings. The board has control over our money and the investments. The gov entity I work for has never failed to meet their contributions.

If you have under 20 years of service, we can withdraw all contributions, but it will be taxed fairly heavily unless you roll it all into another 401k or roth ira. If you have over 20 years, you have to just suck it up and take your pension payments when you hit the correct age.

The problem in my state is from politicians borrowing against the pension general funds. In my state, the state has control over all the teachers, all the judges, and state workers. The other problem is the state over promising.....All state workers get the same cheap discounted healthcare that they did when they worked full time.

Here's a short article on Rod Blago and how he made royally messed up the pension funds for the state of Illinois.

http://www.senategop.state.il.us/ind...sion-diversion


During the closing days of the 2005 Illinois legislative session Governor Blagojevich and his legislative allies pushed through a massive raid on the state’s pension systems in SB 27 (Now Public Act 94-0004)
The record-setting diversion of dollars will be used not only to pay for the day-to-day operation of state government, but also allows a bailout of the Chicago Transit Authority, millions of dollars in pork barrel projects, major expansions of entitlement programs and no reforms of the Governor’s scandal-plagued contracting system.
The plan that the Governor, President of the Senate and Speaker of the House pushed through took away $1.2 billion owed the pension systems this year and takes another $1.1 billion next year. The raids continue through FY 2015 and total nearly $4.85 billion.




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Old 01-07-2013, 00:25   #361
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Originally Posted by elsolo View Post
pensions are a Ponzi scheme

There are not sustainable, so the people that get in early enough get paid, everybody else is just a payer.
You are basically correct. A person may only put in fifty grand and believe that they lost a lot when they still have their original amount in the plan. Since the economy tanked the values have gone down quite a bit. Most companies and even governments will have to adjust pensions as people live longer and we keep allowing more and more foreigners illegally into the country. We just can't afford the new people and our math does not work.
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:46   #362
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Geese have been crapping on my truck lately and upsetting me. I hate to come out and find goose crap all over it.

#2 shot will work on Geese but I prefer BB's.
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:17   #363
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Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
All this arguing over who has to pay and contracts and Constitutions is retarded.

THERE IS NO MONEY TO PAY ALL THESE PROMISES/OBLIGATIONS/WHATEVER. THE VERY SIMPLE MATH MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE.

You can ignore a legal position or a rail at politicians all you want. Still doesn't change the fact that there's not enough money on the face of the earth to honor all those promises.

You/We are screwed. The sooner we all realize the truth the faster we can move on with figuring out what we do AFTER it all falls in on itself.
Much agreed.

These pension/union/whatever fights are dumb. The ship has already sailed on these. It's much more reasonable to focus on what to do to prepare for the future.
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:03   #364
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Much agreed.

These pension/union/whatever fights are dumb. The ship has already sailed on these. It's much more reasonable to focus on what to do to prepare for the future.
The ship hasn't just sailed. It has sailed, hit an iceberg and is ripped halfway down the bow. Mathematically, it will flounder and sink but there is a band playing on the deck and some feel re-arrangement of the deck chairs will fix everything.
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:34   #365
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Much agreed.

These pension/union/whatever fights are dumb. The ship has already sailed on these. It's much more reasonable to focus on what to do to prepare for the future.
There are now two pension ships, a new one and an old one. The new one is defined contribution based and may even be portable, etc... And as I've said, I see several big advantages and one huge advantage these plans have over the old style pensions and SS.

If I were starting over, I'd choose this ^^^, and of course opt out of SS.

The old pension ship is what's at issue here. It's a ship that's not going to disappear for several decades. You have anywhere from the already retired to the newly enrolled. Can you buy out the newly enrolled? IDK but probably a lot easier to. And as I've said, I'm willing to be bought out if they made a fair offer today. But understand also that many current employees have planned their retirement based on what the system promised 10, 15, 30 years ago.
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:48   #366
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
There are now two pension ships, a new one and an old one. The new one is defined contribution based and may even be portable, etc... And as I've said, I see several big advantages and one huge advantage these plans have over the old style pensions and SS.

If I were starting over, I'd choose this ^^^, and of course opt out of SS.

The old pension ship is what's at issue here. It's a ship that's not going to disappear for several decades. You have anywhere from the already retired to the newly enrolled. Can you buy out the newly enrolled? IDK but probably a lot easier to. And as I've said, I'm willing to be bought out if they made a fair offer today. But understand also that many current employees have planned their retirement based on what the system promised 10, 15, 30 years ago.
I have planned my life based on current tax rates. Who's interest should prevail?
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:51   #367
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Originally Posted by Sharky7 View Post
Account is just a pool account that all the money is put into, mostly called a general fund. I contribute roughly 10% of my paycheck into the account. The gov entity I work for matches that. That is all they have paid and all they will pay into the pension fund. It is factored into the salary and benefits when we allocate the funds to hire new officers.

Thankfully, police pensions in my state are controlled individually by each municipality's elected pension board. We have a pension board that is directed by elected officers and hold voted meetings. The board has control over our money and the investments. The gov entity I work for has never failed to meet their contributions.

If you have under 20 years of service, we can withdraw all contributions, but it will be taxed fairly heavily unless you roll it all into another 401k or roth ira. If you have over 20 years, you have to just suck it up and take your pension payments when you hit the correct age.

The problem in my state is from politicians borrowing against the pension general funds. In my state, the state has control over all the teachers, all the judges, and state workers. The other problem is the state over promising.....All state workers get the same cheap discounted healthcare that they did when they worked full time.

Here's a short article on Rod Blago and how he made royally messed up the pension funds for the state of Illinois.

http://www.senategop.state.il.us/ind...sion-diversion


During the closing days of the 2005 Illinois legislative session Governor Blagojevich and his legislative allies pushed through a massive raid on the state’s pension systems in SB 27 (Now Public Act 94-0004)
The record-setting diversion of dollars will be used not only to pay for the day-to-day operation of state government, but also allows a bailout of the Chicago Transit Authority, millions of dollars in pork barrel projects, major expansions of entitlement programs and no reforms of the Governor’s scandal-plagued contracting system.
The plan that the Governor, President of the Senate and Speaker of the House pushed through took away $1.2 billion owed the pension systems this year and takes another $1.1 billion next year. The raids continue through FY 2015 and total nearly $4.85 billion.



Thanks for the explanation.

Couple questions:

1. How can the legistlature borrow against pension funds if it is your money?

2. Did Blago and the legislature take money from the pension plan or did they divert money that was planned to go into it, to another purpose?
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:20   #368
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The ship hasn't just sailed. It has sailed, hit an iceberg and is ripped halfway down the bow. Mathematically, it will flounder and sink but there is a band playing on the deck and some feel re-arrangement of the deck chairs will fix everything.
Look at patchman for your answer.

He is screaming at people that the deck chairs need to be re-arranged because he was promised a boat ride to New York. Since he is not in New York, the only reasonable explanation to him is the deck chair need re-arranged and the ice berg has not been hit. Everything is OK.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:25   #369
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The ship hasn't just sailed. It has sailed, hit an iceberg and is ripped halfway down the bow. Mathematically, it will flounder and sink but there is a band playing on the deck and some feel re-arrangement of the deck chairs will fix everything.
That describes it to a tee-- for some folks. For the diehards, it is something that will/should never go away, regardless of the cost to the taxpayer.

Somewhat related--My wife and I were waiting in line to get into a state park in HI last year and a couple of school teachers were in front of us chatting with the ticket taker regarding her retirement benefits ( I kid you not).

Apparently, the ticket taker was a newbie and not on any type of retirement track at the time while the teachers proceeded to tell her she needed to get into a government system with guaranteed benefits--just like theirs. I've got to say, it was all my wife and I could not bust out laughing at these two--for a number of reasons, not the least of which that no government can afford them anymore.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:26   #370
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If I were starting over, I'd choose this ^^^, and of course opt out of SS.
Funny, govt employees think they should be exempt from SS but not the rest of us.

Dirty secret, many govt employees dont pay SS. Many times the 10% that Sharky is talking about by employer contributions of 10% by govts is in lieu of employer FICA with holding and the the employee contributions are in lieu of FICA withholdings. So in effect, they are really contributing anything other than taxes that a private employer/employee would be paying but they think they have been promised something because they dont pay FICA/SECA and instead it goes into a "fund".

So, pathcman and sharky,what is your FICA and SECA withholding rate?
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:45   #371
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The retirement system I contribute to is currently 80% funded. In the early nineties it was over-funded for a few years in a row. Each year the legislature decided to give the current retiree's the over funded portion in the form of double digit pay increases. At the time the going rate for pay increases were about 4%. Not sure why they wouldn't have given them a normal COLA bump. Those extra funds would have helped to weather the storm through 2008-2009.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:52   #372
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The retirement system I contribute to is currently 80% funded. In the early nineties it was over-funded for a few years in a row. Each year the legislature decided to give the current retiree's the over funded portion in the form of double digit pay increases. At the time the going rate for pay increases were about 4%. Not sure why they wouldn't have given them a normal COLA bump. Those extra funds would have helped to weather the storm through 2008-2009.
What is your FICA and SECA tax rate?
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:21   #373
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That describes it to a tee-- for some folks. For the diehards, it is something that will/should never go away, regardless of the cost to the taxpayer.

Somewhat related--My wife and I were waiting in line to get into a state park in HI last year and a couple of school teachers were in front of us chatting with the ticket taker regarding her retirement benefits ( I kid you not).

Apparently, the ticket taker was a newbie and not on any type of retirement track at the time while the teachers proceeded to tell her she needed to get into a government system with guaranteed benefits--just like theirs. I've got to say, it was all my wife and I could not bust out laughing at these two--for a number of reasons, not the least of which that no government can afford them anymore.
I'm 42. I have a lifelong friend who is retiring as a detective this year with the local PD. Retiring at 43. He's been a street cop his entire career.

I've seen folks here post about how the job takes such a toll on you that you need to retire physically at an early age. I gotta tell you this guy is fine. He isn't physically beat up. He's out hunting and fishing and doing all sorts of stuff. He's very well known in the community and I expect he'll pick up another lucrative job in retirement.

This whole early retirement thing is bogus from the getgo. Packages like that are the reason a lot of folks choose this route.
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:23   #374
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What is your FICA and SECA tax rate?
We don't pay into social security. We do pay medicare/medicaid. If you earn over forty quarters in social security through other employment you would qualify, but it's at a much lower offset.
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:29   #375
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Another big hit on our retirement system are all of the disability cases. A few years back a couple of female recruits weren't hacking it in a local FD's candidate school. They were let go. They hired lawyers and after it was all said and done they were placed on permanent disability without ever putting a dime into the system.
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