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Old 01-06-2013, 15:06   #276
Patchman
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Originally Posted by mgentry View Post
Just look at Social Security - congress and the senate have raided to fund so many times -and never paid any back - that they have forgotten. They want to look perplexed and act like they can't figure out why it is going broke.
Exactly.

Politicians raid the fund. Issue IOUs payable to the future. Then when the future arrives, the current politicians says "oh, that wasn't us. And we don't have the money anyway. Sorry."

IOUs for 10, 15, 20 years? All that principle lost. All that interest it would have earned lost.

Then blame the pensioners?. OMG!!!

That's like blaming gun owners for gun crimes
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Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.

Last edited by Patchman; 01-06-2013 at 15:07..
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Old 01-06-2013, 15:22   #277
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Originally Posted by Sharky7 View Post
Why do some people blame a public pension and not the mismanagement.

My gov pension is funded appropriately. There are even several fire agencies around me with 150%+ funded pensions.
Mismanagement is the cause. No doubt. The only blame toward the employees occurs when they turn to the taxpayers and say FU payup.

Pension shortfalls are in the trillions. That's what started the thread. Yet every public worker I've ever seen post on the subject says theirs is fine. Here's hoping that really is the case with yours.
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Old 01-06-2013, 15:23   #278
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Exactly.

Politicians raid the fund. Issue IOUs payable to the future. Then when the future arrives, the current politicians says "oh, that wasn't us. And we don't have the money anyway. Sorry."

IOUs for 10, 15, 20 years? All that principle lost. All that interest it would have earned lost.

Then blame the pensioners?. OMG!!!

That's like blaming gun owners for gun crimes
You get the blame when you want taxpayers to paper that over and make you whole.
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Old 01-06-2013, 15:36   #279
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
You get the blame when you want taxpayers to paper that over and make you whole.
We get the blame for everything. Par for the course.

And why I demand every promise I got for taking this job.
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Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.

Last edited by Patchman; 01-07-2013 at 06:01..
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Old 01-06-2013, 16:02   #280
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When your house catches on fire, or when someone is breaking into your house, or when someone is committing some crime against you, you NEVER have the obligation to call 9-1-1.

Can we understand that? Calling 9-1-1 is optional. You're all grown men. You all got guns. You all can take care of yourselves.
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Why? We have a sheriff with a large well equipped force. We tax ourselves to fund his department (on the ballot). They serve at the pleasure of the sheriff. No union.

Why should I not use the services I pay for?
Oh, by all means, if you feel the need, then call 9-1-1. After all, they're your paid for civil servants.
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Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.

Last edited by Patchman; 01-07-2013 at 06:02..
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Old 01-06-2013, 16:03   #281
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Oh, by all means, if you feel the need, then call 9-1-1. After all, they're your paid for civil servants.
They aren't civil servants.

Get it?
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Old 01-06-2013, 16:04   #282
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We get the blame for everything. Par for the course.

And why I demand every promise I got for taking this job. The job satisfaction is when crime victims get satisfaction and/or closure. The carp is when everyone else cries about costs of keeping a police. Until they're victim, that is.
I didn't break any promise to you.
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Old 01-06-2013, 16:06   #283
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
We get the blame for everything. Par for the course.

And why I demand every promise I got for taking this job. The job satisfaction is when crime victims get satisfaction and/or closure. The carp is when everyone else cries about costs of keeping a police. Until they're victim, that is.
So you don't expect the taxpayers to ante up whatever it takes to pay the pension the politicians promised you?
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Old 01-06-2013, 16:15   #284
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So you don't expect the taxpayers to ante up whatever it takes to pay the pension the politicians promised you?
There is a difference between being responsible for paying the pension and being responsible for the missed contributions.
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Old 01-06-2013, 16:16   #285
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So you don't expect the taxpayers to ante up whatever it takes to pay the pension the politicians promised you?
Do you have a problem with the concept that a promise made to me 16 years ago, and which I kept my end of the bargain, and which I based my retirement future on, I demand to keep enforced?

Yes or No?
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Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.

Last edited by Patchman; 01-06-2013 at 16:22..
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Old 01-06-2013, 16:30   #286
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NV PERS had a return for 2012 of 16%. Since 1984 they have a net return of 9.3%, also greater than the 8% expected. So does that mean I should get a refund of my contributions since they did better than their expected rate of return? If there was a shortfall you would expect that I would have to contribute more, right?

The problem with a lot of pension plans (CALPERS included) is that the money wasn't put into the plan to be invested as required. Instead the lawmakers wrote an IOU and spent the money elsewhere. Since that money wasn't invested, there's no way for it to achieve the rate of return required to sustain the system.

This kind of misappropriation committed by politicians across the country would land everyone involved in prison if it were done in private business. If the systems are underfunded and going broke it's because of mismanagement at the highest level, not because they're unsustainable.
Good post!
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Old 01-06-2013, 16:32   #287
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Originally Posted by Sharky7 View Post
There is a difference between being responsible for paying the pension and being responsible for the missed contributions.
Which am I responsible for and why?
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Old 01-06-2013, 16:33   #288
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Do you have a problem with the concept that a promise made to me 16 years ago, and which I kept my end of the bargain, and which I based my retirement future on, I demand to keep enforced?

Yes or No?
Answer my question and I will answer yours.
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Old 01-06-2013, 16:35   #289
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Answer my question and I will answer yours.
Answer my question and I will answer yours.
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Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.
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Old 01-06-2013, 16:41   #290
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
Which am I responsible for and why?
If a state government takes out a loan for a project, they must re-pay that loan. We have a spending problem as a country.

Do you work for a company that has a matching 401k?
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Old 01-06-2013, 16:46   #291
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Originally Posted by Sharky7 View Post
If a state government takes out a loan for a project, they must re-pay that loan. We have a spending problem as a country.

Do you work for a company that has a matching 401k?
Who forces the state to repay a loan?
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Old 01-06-2013, 16:49   #292
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Who forces the state to repay a loan?
If they don't - they will begin facing the same problems the rest of the country is going through. Wait for that credit rating to keep getting lower and lower and YOUR taxes to go up because of it.
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Old 01-06-2013, 16:53   #293
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Politicians raid the fund. Issue IOUs payable to the future. Then when the future arrives, the current politicians says "oh, that wasn't us. And we don't have the money anyway. Sorry."

<snip>

Then blame the pensioners?
Who said anything about "blame"?

There isn't any money. That fact doesn't depend on whose "fault" it is or who is to "blame." The money is gone.
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Old 01-06-2013, 16:54   #294
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If they don't - they will begin facing the same problems the rest of the country is going through. Wait for that credit rating to keep getting lower and lower and YOUR taxes to go up because of it.
Sure, it would not be good for the old bond rating, but you said they must repay it, that is simply not true.

Last edited by 2bgop; 01-06-2013 at 16:54..
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Old 01-06-2013, 16:55   #295
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Do you have a problem with the concept that a promise made to me 16 years ago, and which I kept my end of the bargain, and which I based my retirement future on, I demand to keep enforced?

Yes or No?
Yes.

You kept up your end of the bargain, and they didn't keep up theirs. They screwed you. That sucks.

It doesn't give you the right to screw anyone else. Your money is gone, and if you "demand" to get paid they'll have to steal some more from someone else to pay you.
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Old 01-06-2013, 16:58   #296
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Good post!
Not really. We're back to one legislature binding another. The money isn't misappropriated. It was appropriated differently by a different legislature.
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Old 01-06-2013, 17:00   #297
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Originally Posted by Sharky7 View Post
If a state government takes out a loan for a project, they must re-pay that loan. We have a spending problem as a country.

Do you work for a company that has a matching 401k?
No. They don't have to repay it. The investors who purchase the bond do so in order to get a return on their investment. There is no return without risk.
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Old 01-06-2013, 17:00   #298
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Originally Posted by 2bgop View Post
Sure, it would not be good for the old credit rating, but you said they must repay it, that is simply not true.
I thought you were asking out of your curiosity to learn...not asking to nitpick words.
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Old 01-06-2013, 17:02   #299
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No. They don't have to repay it. The investors who purchase the bond do so in order to get a return on their investment. There is no return without risk.
Gov employees did not look to invest their money. Your analogy is incorrect.

The agreement was a matching program similar to your 401k.
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Old 01-06-2013, 17:04   #300
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I thought you were asking out of your curiosity to learn...not asking to nitpick words.
I can alway learn, but I have a fairly decent grasp of this topic.
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