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Old 01-06-2013, 12:11   #226
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The official unemployment numbers for Las Vegas are hovering around 10%. The "real" unemployment of people who are unemployed or underemployed is more around 20-25%. I don't know about you, but when I want to make more money or don't like my job (or don't have one), I apply for everything and anything.

I also know a few people who work in HR at the casinos. They're getting about 50-100 applications per opening minimum. Why would government employment be any different?
It shouldn't. That's why the government should respect the market and use the opportunity to cut wages and benefits to save the taxpayers some money.

I have no interest in how a casino manages its labor costs.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:15   #227
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Or did I miss something about costs for a medical device that's patented, vs. same device in the public domain?
You missed a more than a lot. It also shows why you have so little regard for other peoples money. You have no clue what it takes to generate wealth.

But, I will make the offer to you. If you have $3M to invest, there is a good opportunity to make money, or if you are such a humanitarian you can donate all your profits.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:19   #228
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Whenever someone has to default on a contract, there are losers.

The problem you seem to have with this concept, is that you think the tax payers should be the losers and not the public employees. In the world of provate companies, the party who is owed money is typically the loser.

When money is gone, someone is going to feel pain. Now it is just a discussion of WHO should feel the pain.
As CACop said, under the law the only way out of paying pensions is bankruptcy. That said....

When a business goes bankrupt, who gets paid first, employees or the owners?

If a business is strapped for cash, who is expected to pay the bills, the employees or the owners?

If a business submits a reorganization plan, do they not have to show an ability to repay debts and/or pay for continuing operations and future liabilities?

When a business goes bankrupt, what's the order of repayment? Where do employees fall in that order?

Who "owns" the government? Who pays government's bills? If taxpayers are expected to pay every other bill, why would employee pensions be any different?
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:23   #229
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As CACop said, under the law the only way out of paying pensions is bankruptcy. That said....

When a business goes bankrupt, who gets paid first, employees or the owners?

If a business is strapped for cash, who is expected to pay the bills, the employees or the owners?

If a business submits a reorganization plan, do they not have to show an ability to repay debts and/or pay for continuing operations and future liabilities?

When a business goes bankrupt, what's the order of repayment? Where do employees fall in that order?

Who "owns" the government? Who pays government's bills? If taxpayers are expected to pay every other bill, why would employee pensions be any different?
CACOP was wrong and it was demonstrated to him 12 different ways.

The court cannot force the legislative to appropriate money.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:25   #230
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As CACop said, under the law the only way out of paying pensions is bankruptcy. That said....

When a business goes bankrupt, who gets paid first, employees or the owners?

If a business is strapped for cash, who is expected to pay the bills, the employees or the owners?

If a business submits a reorganization plan, do they not have to show an ability to repay debts and/or pay for continuing operations and future liabilities?

When a business goes bankrupt, what's the order of repayment? Where do employees fall in that order?

Who "owns" the government? Who pays government's bills? If taxpayers are expected to pay every other bill, why would employee pensions be any different?
And when a business goes bankrupt the shareholders are protected. That is the whole point of incorporation.

If you buy shares of xyz corp and it fails, you don't pay a dime.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:28   #231
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As CACop said, under the law the only way out of paying pensions is bankruptcy. That said....
What you people refuse to see, the laws can be easily changed. A few days ago, inheritance tax was 35% today it is 40%.

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When a business goes bankrupt, who gets paid first, employees or the owners?
Well, by definition it is bankrupt. Creditor order of pay is determined in the bankruptcy hearings. Some creditors have higher standing than others. That said, they still only get what assets are left, even the employees. If there is nothing, no-one gets anythings.


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If a business is strapped for cash, who is expected to pay the bills, the employees or the owners?
It depends. Are you talking a corporation or sole proprietorship?

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If a business submits a reorganization plan, do they not have to show an ability to repay debts and/or pay for continuing operations and future liabilities?
No, they have to show a good faith effort to be able to repay if they simply want to re-org. But there are different types of bankruptcy and you are mixing these.

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When a business goes bankrupt, what's the order of repayment? Where do employees fall in that order?
It depends how creditors are secured and what the priority of security is.

You are trying to get me to say employees first which is sometimes the case and sometime not. However, if there is no money left, no-one gets anything.

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Who "owns" the government? Who pays government's bills? If taxpayers are expected to pay every other bill, why would employee pensions be any different?
I hear all the time how these people dont work for me. So obviously I dont it their job and by your logic, since they remind us all the time they dont work for me, I shouldnt have to pay them a dime, nickel or penny.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:32   #232
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PS. If you can not afford a device you think you need, that is not my problem. I guess you dont need it bad enough if you cant pay for it.
Great. I guess that's why First Responder tasks are assigned to pubic service. Because if police/fire/EMS went privatized, their motto would be... "you don't need it bad enough if you can't pay for it. Will that be Cash, Credit or Debit?"
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:36   #233
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Great. I guess that's why First Responder tasks are assigned to pubic service. Because if police/fire/EMS went privatized, their motto would be... "you don't need it bad enough if you can't pay for it. Will that be Cash, Credit or Debit?"
Which first responders?
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:36   #234
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Great. I guess that's why First Responder tasks are assigned to pubic service. Because if police/fire/EMS went privatized, their motto would be... "you don't need it bad enough if you can't pay for it. Will that be Cash, Credit or Debit?"
This is the reason I donate heavily to FOP and IAFF golf tournaments and charity events, I am willing to pay extra for a little extra care.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:47   #235
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You missed a more than a lot. It also shows why you have so little regard for other peoples money. You have no clue what it takes to generate wealth.

But, I will make the offer to you. If you have $3M to invest, there is a good opportunity to make money, or if you are such a humanitarian you can donate all your profits.
Yeah, that's the problem. I work for a business where generating personal wealth creatively is a dirty word. Go figure, right!

Yes, my focus in life was never to generate wealth for myself. My family (both my sister and brother are lawyers) tells me I would have earned multi-millions by now if I went patent law. But that was 1995, and since then, I've never had any regrets doing what I do now.

Unfortunately, I don't have $3 Million. I'm a poor working stiff. But thanks for your offer.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:48   #236
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Great. I guess that's why First Responder tasks are assigned to pubic service.
"Pubic" service? EMTs in your neighborhood must do something different than they do around here.

In any case--yes, you're right. The few things that we, as a nation, choose to pay for as public infrastructure rather than through the free market are things that we, collectively, "feel" that people should have access to even if they can't afford to pay for them.

That doesn't mean they're free. Police and fire services certainly are not free. What it means is, those who can pay pay their share AND subsidize the shares of those who cannot pay.

Whether you think it's right or wrong, at least be honest about it. If someone can't afford to pay for something, and wants it anyway, that means that someone else must pay for them.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:48   #237
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Which first responders?
Whoever gets there first after you dial 9-1-1. Could be your neighbors for all I know.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:51   #238
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Yeah, that's the problem. I work for a business where generating personal wealth creatively is a dirty word. Go figure, right!
"confiscating" money is not generating wealth. You dont really get what generating wealth means.
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Old 01-06-2013, 12:52   #239
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Whether you think it's right or wrong, at least be honest about it. If someone can't afford to pay for something, and wants it anyway, that means that someone else must pay for them.
Honesty about where money comes from for the publci sector employees seems to be something they have a hard time "honestly" acknowledging.
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Old 01-06-2013, 13:03   #240
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"Pubic" service? EMTs in your neighborhood must do something different than they do around here.

In any case--yes, you're right. The few things that we, as a nation, choose to pay for as public infrastructure rather than through the free market are things that we, collectively, "feel" that people should have access to even if they can't afford to pay for them.

That doesn't mean they're free. Police and fire services certainly are not free. What it means is, those who can pay pay their share AND subsidize the shares of those who cannot pay.

Whether you think it's right or wrong, at least be honest about it. If someone can't afford to pay for something, and wants it anyway, that means that someone else must pay for them.
Absolutely that "somebody" has to pay for it.

In one of my previous post, I mention local/county/state medical center that is also a level I trauma center. You may never need to be a patient at a level I trauma center, but if you (or your family ever did), how much are you willing to pay for that service?

So now, lets think "generating money." Governments aren't in it to make a profit, like private industries are. But if the only local Level I trauma center is owned/operated by the local/county/state, shouldn't that place be allowed to charge the going rate for what a private (ie 'for profit') facility would charge?

I mean, if a private business figured they can provide Level I care and make a profit, they'd jump in, right?
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Old 01-06-2013, 13:12   #241
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Whoever gets there first after you dial 9-1-1. Could be your neighbors for all I know.
Some have arrest power. Some don't. Some are private here. Some WERE volunteer until they took grant money, hired a bunch of employees and the union moved in and bankrupted it.

No worries. They came to the voters asking for a renewal and an increase to pay for all these new union firefighters.

We gave them the renewal. Declined the increase. 30 new unionized firefighters just got canned.

Who will the sheriff arrest?
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Old 01-06-2013, 13:14   #242
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So now, lets think "generating money." Governments aren't in it to make a profit, like private industries are.
Ahh...your true knowledge is showing. You equate generating revenue to generating wealth. You should learn the difference. A good place to start is by reading An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations by Adam Smith.
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Old 01-06-2013, 13:15   #243
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That is all you care about Paul. Why Paul? Because you sure dont mind taking from Peter.
It's ironic you use this comparison in your debate. That is exactly why a lot of the state gov's are in trouble - robbing Peter to pay Paul.

All of the municipal gov pensions in my area that put in the gov agreed % over the years are around 80-90% funded.
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Old 01-06-2013, 13:15   #244
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"confiscating" money is not generating wealth. You dont really get what generating wealth means.
You acknowledge that I'm in a business where generating wealth creatively is a dirty word, yet you mock me for not knowing how to generate wealth.

OK. All I know is how to serve the public, including the poor. If that's not to your Teutonic taste, sorry.
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Old 01-06-2013, 13:19   #245
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You acknowledge that I'm in a business where generating wealth creatively is a dirty word, yet you mock me for not knowing how to generate wealth.

OK. All I know is how to serve the public, including the poor. If that's not to your Teutonic taste, sorry.
You aren't in a business and you aren't generating wealth. You aren't even a net taxpayer.
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Old 01-06-2013, 13:20   #246
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Some have arrest power. Some don't. Some are private here. Some WERE volunteer until they took grant money, hired a bunch of employees and the union moved in and bankrupted it.

No worries. They came to the voters asking for a renewal and an increase to pay for all these new union firefighters.

We gave them the renewal. Declined the increase. 30 new unionized firefighters just got canned.

Who will the sheriff arrest?
The sheriff arrests? Couldn't care less.

Just hope your house don't catch on fire until the new FD crew learn the ropes. Good luck. Remember no open flames.
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Old 01-06-2013, 13:27   #247
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The sheriff arrests? Couldn't care less.

Just hope your house don't catch on fire until the new FD crew learn the ropes. Good luck. Remember no open flames.
Ask CACOP. He said the sheriff could arrest the legislature for not appropriating money.

If my house catches fire I'm insured. No prob. Yeah my insurance is going to get more expensive but I'd rather pay it than get held hostage by a public union.
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Old 01-06-2013, 13:29   #248
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You aren't in a business and you aren't generating wealth. You aren't even a net taxpayer.
Yeah, but I hang around and eat doughnuts until you and your wife/family calls 9-1-1 and want us to show up. Or, sure, you and your your family can call 9-1-1 and get a busy signal...

Oh yeah, what with me and my neighbor paying the same tax rate, and my neighbor earns the same as I do??? I'm paying myself to be at work?
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Old 01-06-2013, 13:34   #249
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Yeah, but I hang around and eat doughnuts until you and your wife/family calls 9-1-1 and want us to show up. Or, sure, you and your your family can call 9-1-1 and get a busy signal...

Oh yeah, what with me and my neighbor paying the same tax rate, and my neighbor earns the same as I do??? I'm paying myself to be at work?
Yes essentially you're paying yourself to work.

Private EMS service.
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Old 01-06-2013, 13:36   #250
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We had the vollies to supplement but the union ruined that.

No worries. We're working on returning it to vollie status.
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