[plouffedaddy]

Loaded up some Hornady TAP 147gr 9mm JHP rounds, brought out the Clear Ballistics gel (calibrated to manufacturors specs), grabbed my SIG P6 (3.9'' barrel), and the video camera and here's what I found.

Chrono Data:

-971 fps, 308 ft/lbs energy

Results:

-20.5'' penetration

As you'll see in the video below, the round failed to expand but did tumble in the block.

Hornady 147gr 9mm TAP JHP Ballistics Gel Test (HD) - YouTube

Hornady 147gr 9mm TAP JHP Ballistics Gel Test (HD) - YouTube

[M 7]

That's kind of surprising- expected a little expansion out it. Possibly anomalous?

Thanks for the test- always interesting and definitely COOL to watch!

[robhic]

Do you think that a similar round with Hornady's FTX bullet - the one with the red or green rubber plug - would have performed different / better? Just curious.

A lot of folks don't give Hornady the respect I think they deserve. Yeah, it's IMO but I've never had problems and always been pleased with Hornady's products.

[SCmasterblaster]

I am not at all surprised tht the 147gr bullet didn't expand. It hit the block at less than 950 FPS. Bullets need to be going at 1100 FPS or higher to expand well.

[plouffedaddy]

Originally Posted by robhic

Do you think that a similar round with Hornady's FTX bullet - the one with the red or green rubber plug - would have performed different / better? Just curious.

A lot of folks don't give Hornady the respect I think they deserve. Yeah, it's IMO but I've never had problems and always been pleased with Hornady's products.

It probably would have. The new bullets by Hornady seem to have a better track record.

[clarkz71]

Total Anemic Power

[Merkavaboy]

Originally Posted by plouffedaddy

It probably would have. The new bullets by Hornady seem to have a better track record.

Hornady's FTX loads have no real world tract record and the XTP is one of the worst designed JHP.

[NEOH212]

Hornady Crap.


I'll Stick with Speer GD, Ranger, and HST.

[cowboy1964]

I've never been impressed with Hornady's handgun rounds, although the Critical Duty appears to be "ok" and is available in 50 round boxes. But I still wouldn't use it due to lack of real-world data so far.

Hornady's rifle ammo is some good stuff though.

[plouffedaddy]

Originally Posted by NEOH212

Hornady Crap.


I'll Stick with Speer GD, Ranger, and HST.

No argument here. All of my SD handguns has either HST or GD in it.

[dkf]

Originally Posted by Merkavaboy

Hornady's FTX loads have no real world tract record and the XTP is one of the worst designed JHP.

XTP the worst designed JHP? Hardly. It is an old design so it is dated compared to the newer bullets on the market. However it is a pretty reliable expander and gets around the 1.5x diameter it is designed to achieve in most cases.

Older test sans denim.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/2010/09/2...on_tap_101405/

[NEOH212]

In 147 grain, there are far better choices than Hornady period.

I wouldn't waste my money on that particular offering from them.

[NEOH212]

In my testing with the XTP bullets, I've found it seems to really like velocity more than some other designs. It's for that reason I've had much greater success with the lighter faster offerings than the slower heavier ones IMHO.

YMMV.

[Merkavaboy]

Originally Posted by dkf

XTP the worst designed JHP? Hardly. It is an old design so it is dated compared to the newer bullets on the market. However it is a pretty reliable expander and gets around the 1.5x diameter it is designed to achieve in most cases.

Older test sans denim.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/2010/09/2...on_tap_101405/

Compared to LE/SD handgun loads in service calibers made by Fed, Win, Rem and Speer, the XTP is the WORST for either applications. It is an old design that has never had a minor or major redesign to improve expansion or reduce excessive penetration (due to minimal expansion).

If the XTP bullet was such a great design, then why have we not seen OIS results from any LEA? It's because LEAs use modern designed and more efficient JHP bullet designs that have been street proven to be best at what they were designed for: putting down BG's as quickly as possible.

And once again, ballistic gel, nor any other "ballistic" test media for that matter, proves NOTHING, for NOTHING can simulate real human flesh, blood and bone.

[dkf]

Originally Posted by Merkavaboy

Compared to LE/SD handgun loads in service calibers made by Fed, Win, Rem and Speer, the XTP is the WORST for either applications. It is an old design that has never had a minor or major redesign to improve expansion or reduce excessive penetration (due to minimal expansion).

If the XTP bullet was such a great design, then why have we not seen OIS results from any LEA? It's because LEAs use modern designed and more efficient JHP bullet designs that have been street proven to be best at what they were designed for: putting down BG's as quickly as possible.

And once again, ballistic gel, nor any other "ballistic" test media for that matter, proves NOTHING, for NOTHING can simulate real human flesh, blood and bone.

I said the XTP is a dated design compared to the modern JHPs and performance is not on par with modern rounds. Compare it to a bullet like the Federal Hydroshok, the old Remington, Winchester and etc JHPs and it is hardly the worst.

The XTP was and still is designed to favor penetration over expansion. Anyone whom does not comprehend that fact has their head in the sand.

"ballistic" test media for that matter, proves NOTHING"

Yet you are basing a large part of your assumption that the XTP "is the worst jhp" based on jello tests. The XTP has proven what it will do against flesh and bone as a hunting bullet. Again it is a design that favors penetration over expansion diameter.

In my testing with the XTP bullets, I've found it seems to really like velocity more than some other designs. It's for that reason I've had much greater success with the lighter faster offerings than the slower heavier ones IMHO.

I agree. For the 9x19 the 124gr XTP is a far better choice than the 147gr XTP unless you are after penetration.

[unit1069]

I would really like to see tnoutdoors9 conduct a test on the Fiocchi 115-grain Extrema XTP. It's by far the most accurate of any round I've shot in my small CCW pistol, and the perceived power exceeds the standard pressure Gold Dot of the same weight. Other GT members have written that their numbers indicate mid-1200 fps velocity. Expansion is great, but I'll still take accuracy over velocity. Unfortunately the 124-grain Extrema for me is a colossal failure. The lighter round comes in a box with the CIP logo.

[WiskyT]

I'm wondering about the clear gel media itself. It may, or may not compare directly to traditional ballistics gel in terms of penetration. I don't know and that's not what I'm wondering about.

What I'm wondering about, and this particular test may give some indication, is whether it results in the same initiation of expansion as traditional ballistics gelatin. There was a 60 page thread, and the internet is full of similar threads, using water to test pentration. Duncan McPherson has scientific formulas to calculate gel penetration based on water penetration. I don't doubt that those formulas work as he and others have done a great deal of scientific research with that stuff and I trust them.

But, water initiates expansion much more aggressively than gel. A bullet that might turn itself inside out and penetrate say 14" of water, according to McPherson and others would then penetrate X inches of gel. The problem is that the same bullet might expand in a more controlled manner in gel and penetrate much farther. So, for a ball round, or SWC, that doesn't expand, that system works. But with a controlled expansion rounds, it might not.

In this particular test, we see the 147XTP fail to expand at all at it's design velocity, but the medium is new and made of some type of polymer, not gel. The 147XTP routinely expands, at even lower velocities, through denim, in ballistics gel.

So, it could be that this particular projectile used in this particular test might have actually "failed" at what it was designed to do, or it could be that clear gel inhibits expansion.

[Scoob]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

I am not at all surprised tht the 147gr bullet didn't expand. It hit the block at less than 950 FPS. Bullets need to be going at 1100 FPS or higher to expand well.

I think the lower end for velocity is much lower than that. if the bullet has been designed with a large cavity and long serations on the sides it can expand well at lower velocities. No 45 acp gets 1100 fps but there are plenty that expand well.
Here is a link to a TNoudoors test of the 45 gold dot. It was fired from a G30 and only hit 774 fps but it expanded to .75".
Granted this was wetpack and not gelatin but that is a very low velocity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HNSS7tomtw


I would put the velocity minimum at around 850 fps for a well designed bullet to get consistent expansion. I wouldn't tust anything lower than 800 fps regardless of design.

[NEOH212]

Originally Posted by cowboy1964

I've never been impressed with Hornady's handgun rounds, although the Critical Duty appears to be "ok" and is available in 50 round boxes. But I still wouldn't use it due to lack of real-world data so far.

Hornady's rifle ammo is some good stuff though.

I agree. Most of the handgun ammo I've tested of theirs hasn't impressed me. Their XTP bullets don't do bad when loaded hot and are being used for a hunting round but I wouldn't be using them for defense.

Their rifle ammo is superb!

[Scoob]

I love the XTP bullet but I wouldn't carry Hornady loads.

I have handloaded the 155 gr .40 and 115 gr 9mm xtp bullets. If you want light and fast and still get pentration in these two calibers the xtp deos a great job. These two loaded hot to about 1300 fps deliver a lot of energy while still penitrating deep. Of course you give up expanded diameter in order to get the penitration.

[SCmasterblaster]

I guess that Hornady does not use a very soft lead alloy for the long 147gr 9mm bullet.

[plouffedaddy]

Originally Posted by WiskyT

I'm wondering about the clear gel media itself. It may, or may not compare directly to traditional ballistics gel in terms of penetration. I don't know and that's not what I'm wondering about.

What I'm wondering about, and this particular test may give some indication, is whether it results in the same initiation of expansion as traditional ballistics gelatin. There was a 60 page thread, and the internet is full of similar threads, using water to test pentration. Duncan McPherson has scientific formulas to calculate gel penetration based on water penetration. I don't doubt that those formulas work as he and others have done a great deal of scientific research with that stuff and I trust them.

Well I'm certainly no ballistician but Dr. Roberts is. Over on M4C, he stated that the clear ballistic medium is a good test media for penetration/expansion/fragmentation but was very poor at showing the temporary stretch cavity. What I've seen using that is that Dr. Roberts' assessment seems about right when I compare my tests to what the pros are doing.

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by plouffedaddy

Well I'm certainly no ballistician but Dr. Roberts is. Over on M4C, he stated that the clear ballistic medium is a good test media for penetration/expansion/fragmentation but was very poor at showing the temporary stretch cavity. What I've seen using that is that Dr. Roberts' assessment seems about right when I compare my tests to what the pros are doing.

Yeah, and I buy into most of what Roberts and Fackler say about mediums. But, the never seem to address how different mediums help or hurt the expansion itself.

One thing for sure, is that the 147XTP expands reliably in many mediums. Stephen A. Camp even got the anemic Fiocchi verson, at about 850fps or so, to mushroom just like it's supposed to in wetpack and water.

The old data at Firearms Tactical show the XTP expanding through denim and gel in the low 900's.

[WiskyT]

Another example is TNOutdoors. He's had a few bullets that wouldn't expand in water/newspaper milk jugs, but then expanded in his simtest re-tests.

So, it could be inconsitency in the bullets, basicall quality control or changes in design, or it could be other factors like the medium. Wetpack seems pretty reliable, but then you put a plastic jacket (milk jug) around it and he got fialures when others got success.

[rustytxrx]

Thanks for your time and effort. These test make me worry. When you see test like peneration.....then carry your 9mm, 357 sig, 40 cal, or 45 acp....do you ever wonder where that bullet might end up if you were to have to use it.

I feel much more confident about my ability to take on the bad guy then I do about the ability to control where a pass thru to going to land.

It makes you want to measure how thick we are. Oh wait I know, we are about 12" thick thru the chest???? oh dang what I am gonna do with the other 9.5"?