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Old 02-19-2013, 08:52   #761
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Ah yes, and your incessant, nearly compulsive repetition of the same vacuous proposition says nothing of your emotional investment in your own hollow worldview.
You don't have to approve. I don't approve of the view that our freedom requires that all other religious views be eliminated, I just understand some people feel that way.

We aren't going to agree, and that's ok.
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Old 02-19-2013, 08:54   #762
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We aren't going to agree, and that's ok.
Excellent, then we are on the same page.
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:22   #763
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Atheists, by definition are religious.
No, by your argument, atheists, by definition, disbelieve in the existence of a deity. Whether they base that disbelief on faith/ardor or take it as a provisional statement that they're perfectly willing to change should there ever be a valid reason to change it is something you can't determine merely from the definition. We've been over this, why do you ignore it?

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There are many self described atheists that don't fit the definition. A lot of them are actually atheistic agnostics, IMHO based on their description of their belief.
An 'atheistic agnostic' is nothing more than someone who disbelieves in the existence of a deity while recognizing they can't know because it's not a falsifiable proposition (at least in the case of a posit like 'A deity set up initial conditions and then let physics take over'). You could also describe them as an agnostic atheist or an atheist or an agnostic, depending on the context. It's not some wholly different category, it's a subset of atheists.
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:38   #764
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No, by your argument, atheists, by definition, disbelieve in the existence of a deity. Whether they base that disbelief on faith/ardor or take it as a provisional statement that they're perfectly willing to change should there ever be a valid reason to change it is something you can't determine merely from the definition. We've been over this, why do you ignore it?
Yes, we have been over this, those that believe a deity does not exist are atheists, those that believe one does exist are theists. Both are beliefs based on faith. Ardor can be recognized in many ways. Endless questioning and criticism of other beliefs on an Internet forum for example.

Looks like we are at an impasse? Wouldn't you agree?

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An 'atheistic agnostic' is nothing more than someone who disbelieves in the existence of a deity while recognizing they can't know because it's not a falsifiable proposition (at least in the case of a posit like 'A deity set up initial conditions and then let physics take over'). You could also describe them as an agnostic atheist or an atheist or an agnostic, depending on the context. It's not some wholly different category, it's a subset of atheists.
How many that had a passive belief would spend a significant amount of time evangelizing for atheism?
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:44   #765
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In conclusion, evolution is definitely possible. OP fail.


Anything else that's on topic?
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:11   #766
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Both are beliefs based on faith.
Do you consider someone saying 'The probability of a deity existing appears to be very low. Therefore, for now, I will provisionally accept the idea that there are no deities, and if evidence should arise that indicates there are, I will reassess at that time' to be faith based?

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Endless questioning and criticism of other beliefs on an Internet forum for example.
When you misrepresent people's positions, you should expect that they will object. That's not evidence of faith, that's evidence they object to your misrepresentations. Kind of like now, how you're attempting to take my objections to your position to mean it's based on faith. That works both ways, you know.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:17   #767
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Do you consider someone saying 'The probability of a deity existing appears to be very low. Therefore, for now, I will provisionally accept the idea that there are no deities, and if evidence should arise that indicates there are, I will reassess at that time' to be faith based?



When you misrepresent people's positions, you should expect that they will object. That's not evidence of faith, that's evidence they object to your misrepresentations. Kind of like now, how you're attempting to take my objections to your position to mean it's based on faith. That works both ways, you know.
Void, I hear you.

I have my perspective, you have yours. We have reached different conclusions on a few details. That's all.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:40   #768
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Void, I hear you.

I have my perspective, you have yours. We have reached different conclusions on a few details. That's all.
You are assuming that all people who disbelieve disbelieve on faith.

That's not how belief works. Beliefs can be supported or unsupported, taken on faith, not taken on faith, absolute, or provisional.

We're not disagreeing on a minor detail, here - your entire argument rests on the idea that you get to claim that 'disbelief' is equal to 'faith', when it is clearly not.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:44   #769
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If, for instance, you were to claim there were a duck sitting on my shoulder, whispering in my ear, my disbelief in that posit is not faith based. It's based on the fact that there's no evidence for a duck on my shoulder, whispering in my ear.

If you further posit that there's an explanation for there being no evidence of a duck on my shoulder, whispering in my ear, but cannot provide evidential support for that explanation, I am still justified in disbelieving that there is a duck on my shoulder - without invoking faith whatsoever. If you were to provide evidence for that explanation, I would reassess - which is precisely why it's not faith based.
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Old 02-19-2013, 11:53   #770
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So yes, it's possible that there is a deity. There's no evidence that a deity is actually involved, and many, many times in history people have attributed causes to $deity that turned out to have natural explanations. I therefore assess the probability that any particular unexplained phenomenon, that people are currently using $deity as an explanation for, actually has natural causes as high. I could be wrong, and I freely admit that - that's why it's an assessment of probability.

With respect to abiogenesis: Was it primordial soup? Was it a radioactive beach? Was it something to do with suspension of clay and chemistry? Was it some natural process we haven't discovered yet? I don't know. But I'd lay odds on it being one of those, rather than $diety, right up until there's some evidence that $deity actually exists.

And that has nothing to do with faith, and everything to do with the fact that it's plain to see that many, many times humans have not understood something, and invoked a deity, they've been wrong and it was actually a natural phenomenon or process that we eventually investigated and understood.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:40   #771
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You are assuming that all people who disbelieve disbelieve on faith.

That's not how belief works. Beliefs can be supported or unsupported, taken on faith, not taken on faith, absolute, or provisional.

We're not disagreeing on a minor detail, here - your entire argument rests on the idea that you get to claim that 'disbelief' is equal to 'faith', when it is clearly not.
Sure it is. Disbelief is more than a passive lack of belief.

Definition of DISBELIEF
: the act of disbelieving : mental rejection of something as untrue


It's OK if you want to believe that disbelief is a passive word. It's OK if you want to believe that you only lack belief in a deity. It's OK if you believe the belief that there has been no deity is not an act of faith. It's OK if you believe there are not evangelical atheists in GTRI. It's even OK if you believe you aren't one of them.

Like I said, we just disagree a little.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:42   #772
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If, for instance, you were to claim there were a duck sitting on my shoulder, whispering in my ear, my disbelief in that posit is not faith based. It's based on the fact that there's no evidence for a duck on my shoulder, whispering in my ear.

If you further posit that there's an explanation for there being no evidence of a duck on my shoulder, whispering in my ear, but cannot provide evidential support for that explanation, I am still justified in disbelieving that there is a duck on my shoulder - without invoking faith whatsoever. If you were to provide evidence for that explanation, I would reassess - which is precisely why it's not faith based.
I have no opinion whatsoever about whether or not there is a duck on your shoulder.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:45   #773
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I have no opinion whatsoever about whether or not there is a duck on your shoulder.
Religious Issues
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:48   #774
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So yes, it's possible that there is a deity. There's no evidence that a deity is actually involved, and many, many times in history people have attributed causes to $deity that turned out to have natural explanations. I therefore assess the probability that any particular unexplained phenomenon, that people are currently using $deity as an explanation for, actually has natural causes as high. I could be wrong, and I freely admit that - that's why it's an assessment of probability.

With respect to abiogenesis: Was it primordial soup? Was it a radioactive beach? Was it something to do with suspension of clay and chemistry? Was it some natural process we haven't discovered yet? I don't know. But I'd lay odds on it being one of those, rather than $diety, right up until there's some evidence that $deity actually exists.

And that has nothing to do with faith, and everything to do with the fact that it's plain to see that many, many times humans have not understood something, and invoked a deity, they've been wrong and it was actually a natural phenomenon or process that we eventually investigated and understood.
OK. I hear you. The bottom line is how life began exactly, is a mystery. Theists and Atheists have chosen the scenario that fits best with the rest of their system of belief.

Good illustration.

The difference with me, is I'll wait until there is proof one way or the other, then decide. If I die before that happens, I can live with that.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:50   #775
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Religious Issues
Religious Issues

Or is checkers more your style?

I was never trying to get him to believe anything about a duck. He started his hypothetical with a ridiculously false premise. I am not trying to convert him to theism.

A duck on his shoulder is not an unwitnessed event several hundreds of millions of years ago.
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Old 02-19-2013, 13:01   #776
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Religious Issues
Religious Issues
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Old 02-19-2013, 14:06   #777
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He started his hypothetical with a ridiculously false premise.
Please provide proof that the premise that there's a duck sitting on my shoulder, whispering in my ear, is false.

You won't be able to. You'll only be able to show that I have not provided any evidence for the premise that there's a duck sitting on my shoulder, whispering in my ear.

Yet, you consider it to be a 'ridiculously false' premise. Do you do so on faith? I would argue, no, you do so because there's no evidence for such a duck. You disbelieve the duck posit, yet, you don't do so on faith. Just like people can disbelieve the posit that a deity exists, on the basis of no evidence being provided, without invoking faith.

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A duck on his shoulder is not an unwitnessed event several hundreds of millions of years ago.
The comparison doesn't depend on whether or not they are both an unwitnessed event from millions of years ago. It depends on whether or not there's evidence for the posit.
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Old 02-19-2013, 16:22   #778
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Atheists, by definition are religious.
If one equivocates the definition of various terms, sure.

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There are many self described atheists that don't fit the definition. A lot of them are actually atheistic agnostics, IMHO based on their description of their belief. But then again, those guys probably wouldn't spend a lot of time online evangelizing.
Do you also have an idiosyncratic definition of "evangelize"?
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Old 02-19-2013, 16:28   #779
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Maybe you didn't read what you were replying to???
Ironic, coming from the master of answering questions not asked. Is it because you don't bother reading the questions, or is there another reason?

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I think I said I don't have a problem with you thinking of agnosticism as a religion, we've been talking about atheism being one mostly.
That's very open-minded of you, so much so that it wasn't even the issue at hand.

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Why does it bother you so much if someone just has a different opinion, based on a different perspective than your own?
It doesn't. Your consistently dishonestly offering answers for questions that weren't asked does amuse, though. Your opinion may be otherwise, and that's fine.

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What possible harm could come from that?
Not a bit. I prefer honesty, is all.
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Old 02-19-2013, 17:33   #780
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Not a bit. I prefer honesty, is all.
My condelences.

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